Quads. Why or why not?

[satine]

I'd just like to say that these last few pages of the thread have been a very interesting debate to read, with virtually no pettiness, and for that I would like to applaud you all

 

[Metis]

I'd just like to say that these last few pages of the thread have been a very interesting debate to read, with virtually no pettiness, and for that I would like to applaud you all

Thank you, happy holidays internet miracle, and my apologies to the OP... but a mod was involved so all of this off-topic discussion is legal!

 

[gonewiththewind25]

Thank you, happy holidays internet miracle, and my apologies to the OP... but a mod was involved so all of this off-topic discussion is legal!

Well, I can say that I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the debate that’s been going on in the thread!

 

[Arbitrary]

Hesitations and flops kill the whole program.
I remember 1988 Olympics when Faddev did 1T instead of planned quad and lost everything. He could have a medal but...

I feel like Michael Corleone. Just when I think I'm out, I'm pulled back in.

I am reconciled to the fact that I have a different definition of "definition" than most people do. Oh, well.



We just need to think a little bigger. Having 6 jumping passes instead of 7 would be the most obvious solution. Or we could have a seventh pass for a non-rotational jump, where skaters would be expected to do something like Ina Bauer/spread eagle + Russian split jump/stag jump.

http://gofigureskating.com/img/compare/Sasha_Cohen_Split_Jump.jpg

Or we could simply not care whether skaters can squeeze in seven triple jumps within the Zayak rules or not. Or we could change the Zayak rules. Or we could encourage skaters to train more triple Axels and quads.



I do not unserstand this objection. The proposal would be that if you take off from a back edge with toe-pick assist, landing on the opposite foot, then for scoring purposes you have done an LF (base value 5.5). You can do 3-turns into your LF and jump off an inside edge or you can do a long glide and jump off the outside edge, or any other variation that you please. You earned 5.5 points.

If you repeat the jump, once with an clear inside edge and once with a clear outside edge, then you get a bonus of 2 points (Wobbly flatsy edges, no bonus and possibly negative GOE for not skating on your edges.)

Someone needs to send this idea to Mr. Lakernik.

https://realnoevremya.com/uploads/article/25/10/91ed04786dcd7193.jpg



I guess I have a different definition of "intention," too.

To me, technical panels are not expected to be mind readers, nor are they expected to call an element according to the skater's jump card. They have to make a judgement according to what they actually see. They can tell the difference between a skater who whirls around for almost 3 and a half revolutions and then skids another half revolution on the ice (4<<), and the skater who checks out after three revolutions. It is, in fact, their job to do so.

Edit -- here is the iconic example of how turning an "intended" 4T into a 3T can destroy your program. Nobunari Oda "intended" 4T+3T and 3A+3T for his first two jumping passes. But he hesitated and only did 3T+3T. Then when he did 3A+3T, he Zayaked and (by the rules of that time) lost the whole element, more than ten points. Still, no fault can be attached to the technical panel. Even by the current rules. the first combo is clearly 3T+3T, rather than 4T<<+3T.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqVlvL6-mp4

 

[Baron Vladimir]

On the subject of "intention," I remember Alexei Yagudin's LP at the 2002 Olympics. This was 6.0, but still ... Yagudin planned two triple Axels, but in the moment he backed off the second and did a triple Salchow instead. I don't mean that he tried a triple Axel and pre-rotated it. He just changed his mind. (Commentator Scott Hamilton opined that he skated more conservatively because he knew he only had to get second place in the free program to beat Plushenko over all for the gold medal.)

Yes, Shizuka Arakawa also simplified her planned free program content at Torino 2006 after she found out Sasha and Irina hadn't skated clean free programmes. But by 'intention' i only meant skaters intenion to jump lutz or to jump flip which is quite easy for tech panel to recognize based on the fact that skaters could not have an intention to jump two lutzes or two flips on their own because its against the rules. Most of the skaters jump better with outside or with inside edge and the other type of jump may suffer because of that. I didn't see a skater who jump both flip and lutz with not recognizable take off edges, the only situation which will be hard for a tech panel to call/named a jump. Lutz is called in relation to one skater's flip and vice versa, and again individualy for different skater.

 

[Step Sequence4]

I just wanna jump in here and say that the last few pages of the thread have been really interesting, but I think that giving 0 for a jump with a fall would absolutely destroy the sport. We'd have no one pushing themselves to have good jump content because we would have someone like Nathan Chen with one fall and an otherwise perfect program losing to someone like Jason Brown, two very good skaters but one with a much obviously higher difficulty level. Skaters would just automatically reduce their jump content. Not to mention what it would ingrate into the mind of upcoming skaters, if you think theres ANY chance you'll fall, just don't go for the jump. Clean programs would no longer be special. This would just push us so far back in time, not to mention that the -5 eduction is already pretty harsh, and JUST got put in. Sure falling is bad, but it gives a certain essence of unpredictability to the sport, because EVERYONE falls. Imagine what quads have brought to skating, all of you who wanna see more cool and unique jumps like a 4A or a 4T-3A or a 4-4 combo would likely never see these. I don't really think I could consider it a sport anymore because no one would be taking risks and pushing themselves to the max.

 

[withwings]

I'd just like to say that these last few pages of the thread have been a very interesting debate to read, with virtually no pettiness, and for that I would like to applaud you all

I join your applaud Finally a real discussion. an educated, productive discussion- joy to read!
When I was young, I pursued my concert pianist career (oh, it was like to live in paradise! happiness!) but after having skiing accident and surgeries for both of my hands and wrists, was forced " to change my ship" and to sale in different direction, in other words, i do not have any professional knowledge about figure skating techniques or whatever neither I have skated myself in serious way, I only have a pure love of this art- sport. But even me enjoyed this discussion. thanks to all of you!

 

[Casual]

I often read that people believe that Trusova and Scherbakova's quads aren't going to last and are detrimental to their health and I can't help but wonder why. What are the advantages and disadvantages of Quads at this age and why do people think they won't last and are unhealthy.

Also, please don't turn this into a coach bashing or a skater bashing thread, because this thread is only meant to understand the positives and the negatives of doing Quads at that age.

When Nathan's quads were discussed during Olympics, commentators were talking about how quads are "incredibly hard on the body" because of much faster revolutions, resulting in much higher force of impact when landing.

While young bones heal faster if broken, they are also thinner and more fragile due to not being fully grown.

I can't help but think this is not good for younger growing bodies.

 

[el henry]

....
whole post

Sorry. A clean skater (I don't like to use particular ones, because I don't think that's fair) with superior skating, performance and other skills, and clean beautiful triples, winning over any skater who lands messy quads, two foot quads, not rotated quads, would absolutely *promote* the sport and more folks would watch it.

It doesn't stop skaters from practicing hard jumps. It stops them from throwing unprepared and unnecessary quads in just for the sake of a quad, hoping that the skating gods will allow them to land it.

And in sport, if you try for the trick play on 4th and one, and you don't get it in the end zone, you don't get points for trying the trick play, for pushing the sport, or for being "brave". You get points for getting the ball in the end zone.

Put the ball in the end zone. Then I'll clap. Just like a sport:yes:

 

[Step Sequence4]

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I'm not saying that a clean skater with triples shouldn't beat a messy quadster, I'm saying that putting in place a rule in which you automatically get 0 points for falling on something is too harsh, and will prevent anyone from taking risks. If someone falls in a transition does that mean they should get nothing for the transition mark in PCS? What would the junior ladies field look like right now if Trusova hadn't risked the 4S all of last season because of too harsh a penalty? That field would be a lot less exciting. One mistake doesn't define a whole performance, we still have to look at all of the other good things and not suddenly tank a skater doing harder things than the rest because they made a mistake. If the mistakes pile up, and theres two foots, and step outs, and URs on top of falls, then yeah. And we have in place in the current scoring system stuff to penalize that (although they aren't always called for things like URs and edge calls, but thats an entirely different topic) and the person will likely lose on account of their messiness. If someone fully rotates a quad and falls on it, they should get credit for being able to turn a quad, something that not everyone is able to do. Figure skating is not a sport with balls and end zones, nor will it ever be. And we have to judge it according to what it is.

 

[plushyfan]

I'm late in the party...Can you explain these parts of your post?

Back in time Pluschenko almost killed himself in attempt to learn quads beyond 4T.

When? He can land 3A at his 13. He can land in 4T at his 15 ( Two footed at Rus Nat 1997.) If you were talking about 2013 he couldn't jump any jumps to July. He landed in first quad in August.

He can walk on his own but has to periodically visit a doctor who checks and fixes the plastic elements in his spine.

[/QUOTE]

Yes, he can walk but he can skate and jump. He is not in wheelchair as many people predicted. His last 3A was in last summer in a japanese show( he was 35). In Sex Bomb costume! Probably he has to periodically visit a doctor but no needs to fix the one plastic element. The titan screws have been removed since the strengthened back muscles have surrounded the new plastic disc.

 

[plushyfan]

Er, with no quad? Apparently I've just been imagining that 4T+3T+2Lo combo all this time...

Mishin teached to him.. Why he didn't receive a fair play award?

 

[Mathman]

Put the ball in the end zone. Then I'll clap . Just like a sport :yes:

Still, I think that there is another point of view that is still sufficiently sports-like. In figure skating, “putting the ball in the end zone” is not just “not falling down.”

If you do a triple toe and put the ball in the end zone, to me that means that you completed the full three rotations, had superior height, distance and air time, an attractive air position, well-timed to the music and consistent with the choreography, and (most important to me) a secure flowing edge on the landing. For a two-point conversion, you could also have interesting steps and turns as a lead-in.

If you do all that you get 5.46 points (base value with, say, +3 GOE).

On the other hand, the quadster who competes the revolutions with adequate entry, air position, height and distance, but falls on the landing – he only gets a field goal for his efforts (3.75 for the element and probably a hit in the components as well).

To me this seems like a reasonable compromise and one that is consistent with the way figure skating has developed as a sport.

 

[gkelly]

And what about full rotation, superior height, well-timed to the music, with interesting steps leading in, but oops!, fall on the landing?

Or adequate entry, air position, rotation, height and distance, and one-foot but not flowing landing?

Or only some of the above?

There's a lot more to consider than just which jump it is (takeoff type and number of rotations) and whether the landing is on one foot, two feet, or other body parts.

 

[ice coverage]

I'm not much of a football fan, but even I feel sure that no points are lost for falling in/into the end zone, as long as the ball is not dropped.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I’d be interested in how an interception relates to this discussion?

 

[el henry]

Interception is what the artistic perfect 18 triples skater does after the previous skater fell on the quint axel, while trying to push the boundaries of sport

#FlyEaglesFly

(I’m sorry, I couldn’t resist, I still can’t believe we in the playoffs and I know it’s topic: but I love combining my two favorite sports)

 

[lzxnl]

Anyone who can attempt a credible quint axel has my eternal respect.

 

[Mathman]

#FlyEaglesFly

#Justwaittillnextyear #longsufferingLionsfan

 

[TT_Fin]

Why not. Probably there will be limits in the future because big amount of injuries. Maybe they will not allow not many quads in juniors and in seniors amount is limited. Sometimes I have read quads should win...well, clean quads are rewarded, but other elements must be there as well to win. Some male say it is even more difficult to have everything in 4 minutes than 4 and a half, because reparation to quads take so much time. I like to watch figure skating more than jump&skate competition, that is why I hope ladies do never try 5 quads programs. There are, I think, few who could do that and have time to beautiful spins and steps, too.

Yes, they do not loose points if they fall in football. But they do not get any points from running/kicking skills or transitions towards the ball either, or anything they to do on the field. Ski jumpers loose points if they fall, a lot. The longest jump does not win if the jumper falls, he/she does not even medal.