Quads. Why or why not?

[Casual]

Oh, yes as Ashley Wagner ( instead of Mirai) and Daisuke Takahashi ( instead of Kozuka).

Yes, exactly like Ashley. Both she and Plushenko should have stayed home instead of taking someone else's place.

In Plushenko's case it was especially egregious, because at least Ashley planned to compete, and did compete to the best of her ability. In Plu's case, everyone knew beforehand that most likely he would not (not in individual event).

 

[plushyfan]

Yes, exactly like Ashley. Both she and Plushenko should have stayed home instead of taking someone else's place.

In Plushenko's case it was especially egregious, because at least Ashley planned to compete, and did compete to the best of her ability. In Plu's case, everyone knew beforehand that most likely he would not (not in individual event).

You forgot Daisuke. Or is he your favorite and you forgive him?

Back to Plushenko. Are you such person who think he faked the injury? This is sad really sad. Only just those persons think it who don't like him -I wanted to use another word but the GS didn't allow- and who don't know him at all. Who don't know his patriotism, his loyalty to Russia. (Well, I know you are one of them)) Are you from those persons who thinks he wouldn't have been satisfied with a bronze medal ( he had chance ) or a 4th place after the team gold? When he has learned he must compete in individual competition( that was in fall of 2013) he prepared for it. Before the individual competition on training( he had famous supporter skaters from the foreign countries ( Stojko, Lysacek! Weiss) who watched the trainings and saw he landed in quads, 4-3-3 combination and many 3As. He had a very hard fall in one 3A that was totally unusual and the famous skaters tweeted about it immediately. They wrote he had great pain. I don't think if he wanted to WD he starts to warm up before the SP and acts that injury. Totally ridiculous. He wanted to compete and probably he got injured permanently in warm up. He knew many Russians went to the competition because of him. And probably he would have deserved an Oscar for his performance.

 

[[email protected]]

You forgot Daisuke. Or is he your favorite and you forgive him?

Back to Plushenko. Are you such person who think he faked the injury? This is sad really sad. Only just those persons think it who don't like him -I wanted to use another word but the GS didn't allow- and who don't know him at all. Who don't know his patriotism, his loyalty to Russia. (Well, I know you are one of them)) Are you from those persons who thinks he wouldn't have been satisfied with a bronze medal ( he had chance ) or a 4th place after the team gold? When he has learned he must compete in individual competition( that was in fall of 2013) he prepared for it. Before the individual competition on training( he had famous supporter skaters from the foreign countries ( Stojko, Lysacek! Weiss) who watched the trainings and saw he landed in quads, 4-3-3 combination and many 3As. He had a very hard fall in one 3A that was totally unusual and the famous skaters tweeted about it immediately. They wrote he had great pain. I don't think if he wanted to WD he starts to warm up before the SP and acts that injury. Totally ridiculous. He wanted to compete and probably he got injured permanently in warm up. He knew many Russians went to the competition because of him. And probably he would have deserved an Oscar for his performance.

del

 

[Mathman]

Here is what people were saying in 2001 about over-training and injuries in figure skating.

http://old.post-gazette.com/sports/other/20010318skate7.asp

The part I found most interesting was that following the Tonya-Nancy boom, there were so many competitions (the Grand Prix, etc.) that skaters did not have sufficient down time between peaking for events.

Figure skating should be like boxing. You have two fights a year, for which you train intensively for six to eight weeks before tapering off in the week before the bout. Then you are off for 4 months. You get paid $50,000,000 for each fight. Boxers say, "I am always in shape. But I am in ring shape twice a year."

 

[RobinA]

We will have to see whether Trusova and Sherbakova will lose their quads when puberty hits. At the very least, it will be a very difficult transition, given that puberty adds more mass along with height, affecting the center of gravity and general body shape.

According to an article on livestrong.com: "As a girl develops [during puberty], her body will make more fat to allow for fuller thighs, stomach and breasts, and wider hips. Lean body mass in girls diminishes from approximately 80 percent to 75 percent by the end of puberty, while the amount of body fat increases, according to the University of Southern California Keck School of Medicine." Being a world-class athlete and sticking with a particular diet does mitigate this a bit, but puberty still has an impact.

Jump technique that relies more on the upper body (the pull of the arms and the back pushing up) tends to become more laborious during this transition, which is partly why Medvedeva and Zagitova are having more trouble with both the consistency and run-out of their jumps. And it's not just the jumps of course, but the edgework and spins that becomes difficult too.

To be clearer, it's not necessarily that one technique is better or worse in general, but that it can be better or worse depending on the body shape and other factors. And having to relearn and rework jump technique when it's been ingrained into you before puberty is tough as the body's weight distribution changes. But it's possible to learn a technique that works with a woman's changing body; it just takes a lot of dedication and time and a willingness to accept a loss in consistency during the process.

Plus, rotating slows down the further off the axis mass goes. So if you are doing a spin and you stick an arm or a leg out the spin slows. In fact, that's partly how you stop a spin. When you want to speed it up you pull everything in towards the axis. Puberty in a female puts mass (breasts and hips) off the axis, so the rotation is slower, or it's hard to get the same speed. This is why male skaters don't bulk up. This is why I feel quads are particularly bad for women, because it creates all kinds of advantage for people who are willing (and able) to control the effects of puberty. I don't want to support a sport that makes disordered eating a requirement for success in the sport. Although I fear the ship may have sailed on that even before the quads. And I REALLY don't want to support a sport where hormones are being used to control puberty. Not saying this is happening, but I would be really surprised if it hasn't at least been thought of.

 

[RobinA]

If you are not okay with women doing quads, are you okay with men doing quads? (I would warrant to guess your answer is yes.) Because this same question was definitely debated with men many years ago, now it's not even a question... And secondly, why is there a double standard anyways?

I don't like anybody doing quads. That said, the reason it is more of an issue with women is not a double standard, it's that women stand to lose more from a quad emphasis than men do because ability to do quads depends more on things men and prepubescent women are naturally better at than are grown women. I would argue that the whole rotation race is based on a male-based set of values - strength, particularly upper body; and being able to tighten up the body to rotate quickly. Here's a thought. Let's make something flexibility-based the new move by which all skaters are judged. Now you've got something that women are better at than men. Let's ask men to excel at something that makes them work against their bodies for a change.

 

[Boats]

In my perfect world, quads would either be capped at 1 or taken out of junior competition, irregardless of discipline. I believe the junior circuit should be used to (1) develop basic skills and proper techniques and (2) gain competition experience. I don't really see the point in trying extremely risky moves when the basics haven't been polished (maybe juniors should do figures instead lol ). Of course then there are those that have beautiful basics but are held back by the age minimum of seniors, and sports always have risks, so there's really no win-win here, someone is always going to get the short end of the stick. But in most cases sport safety should triumph over all other reasoning.

Kind of on topic- here's a pamphlet from the American Orthopedic Society for Sports Medicine on figure skating injuries and prevention. An interesting read that can be applied to this topic (and figure skating in general).

 

[Elucidus]

https://youtu.be/OkhmL2t0AXM?t=2135
https://youtu.be/OkhmL2t0AXM?t=2486
Here is some really interesting and unexpected opinion about quads jumping techniques, prerotation, half-blade assistance, and how they should be judged by american veteran jumping couch Doug

 

[el henry]

https://youtu.be/OkhmL2t0AXM?t=2135
https://youtu.be/OkhmL2t0AXM?t=2486
Here is some really interesting and unexpected opinion about quads jumping techniques, prerotation, half-blade assistance, and how they should be judged by american veteran jumping couch Doug

Uhhh, Doug Haw is not American

And of course anything he had to say should be judged on its own merits, and not his nationality. Like anything else is skating.

 

[DSQ]

Here is what people were saying in 2001 about over-training and injuries in figure skating.

http://old.post-gazette.com/sports/other/20010318skate7.asp

The part I found most interesting was that following the Tonya-Nancy boom, there were so many competitions (the Grand Prix, etc.) that skaters did not have sufficient down time between peaking for events.

Figure skating should be like boxing. You have two fights a year, for which you train intensively for six to eight weeks before tapering off in the week before the bout. Then you are off for 4 months. You get paid $50,000,000 for each fight. Boxers say, "I am always in shape. But I am in ring shape twice a year."

That’s very interesting I hope there is further studies on this point.

Unfortunately the skating season is so long. Perhaps there should be a limit on the number of competitions you can compete in a year?

 

[Elucidus]

Uhhh, Doug Haw is not American

And of course anything he had to say should be judged on its own merits, and not his nationality. Like anything else is skating.

Isn't he a Canadian? Canada is still America as far as I recall?
Anyway what I meant that mostly americans always were fierce opponents of Eteri lutz techniques - and here we have someone who is not against it - who is even among jumping couches and tech specialists, no less.

 

[el henry]

Isn't he a Canadian? Canada is still America as far as I recall?
Anyway what I meant that mostly americans always were fierce opponents of Eteri lutz techniques - and here we have someone who is not against it - who is even among jumping couches and tech specialists, no less.

Thank you for explaining,

Canadians may call themselves North Americans, but Americans by itself typically refers to residents of the US. I do not want to speak for our Canadian friends, but I think very few would call themselves “Americans”.

 

[DenissVFan]

That’s very interesting I hope there is further studies on this point.

Unfortunately the skating season is so long. Perhaps there should be a limit on the number of competitions you can compete in a year?

Interestingly, I always had an impression that figure skaters complete in a smaller number of competitions that other many other athletes (e.g. different types of skiers).

 

[gkelly]

I would argue that the whole rotation race is based on a male-based set of values - strength, particularly upper body; and being able to tighten up the body to rotate quickly. Here's a thought. Let's make something flexibility-based the new move by which all skaters are judged. Now you've got something that women are better at than men. Let's ask men to excel at something that makes them work against their bodies for a change.

Heh.
I used to suggest, hypothetically, that for a coed competition it might be fair to use 2010 ladies' short program rules:
*no quads, and solo axel must be double
*required leveled layback spin
*required leveled spiral sequence

I also like to argue in favor of new freeskate rules that would reward other kinds of jump difficulty and the option to replace one or two of the jump elements with non-jump elements for those who can rack up more points that way.

But the ISU isn't listening to me.

 

[Alexz]

Heh.
I used to suggest, hypothetically, that for a coed competition it might be fair to use 2010 ladies' short program rules:
*no quads, and solo axel must be double
*required leveled layback spin
*required leveled spiral sequence

I also like to argue in favor of new freeskate rules that would reward other kinds of jump difficulty and the option to replace one or two of the jump elements with non-jump elements for those who can rack up more points that way.

But the ISU isn't listening to me.

I know. I am also not heard. But I am advocating for different stuff.

I want to propose 2 age categories in female singles:

- Ladies 15-20 years old
- Women 20+

(Juniors still the same: 12-15)

Both categories can compete at Olympics and Worlds. Probably even Grand Prix as well. More competitions, more programs, more choreography, more skaters = the better. More events with top-level skaters - more money. Bigger viewership, more sponsors who can target different age groups (because lets face it young viewers wants to see ladies of their own approximate age competing like Yulia, Zhenya, Alina, Alysa, 3A squad, and us - 30+ folks - want to see some one like Asley Wagner and Carolina Kostner and similar current crop of 20+ girls.) More different skaters, more flavor = better for sport. I'm heartbroken to loose silver foxes skaters because they can't do crazy difficult jumps due to their weight or other silly things like gravity, but I am also heartbroken to forbid younger ladies to jump and to challenge boundaries of difficulty. Sport shold evolve. And figure skating is still a sport, and only than it is artsy sport. I still want sport principle apply: stronger, higher, faster. But for viewership numbers and aesthetic purposes figure skating still should remain as artsy as possible. So 2 categories in female singles and probably slightly different criteria of judging for each group will help our sport to keep both: evolution of difficulty and artistry.


Same set of medals, same prestige, same money, same judging with current IJS / code of points. Just age is different. Juniors still can be 12-15 yo, and no Olympics for them. Ladies 15-20 and Woman 20+ can have Worlds, Olympics and GP. But probably no Euros and 4C for category "woman 20+". This would be logical, let the younger ones compete for Euros and 4C. The "older girls" can compete less than 15-20 year-olds, but skate more shows instead, because it is harder for them to peak so often during the season. Fair.

At Olympics in Team event ladies of 15-20 yo can present their Long Programs and 20+ women can skate their Short.

This way we will have it both ways: we still will see our amazing 'jumping beans' with their daring difficulty, and we will enjoy our beloved 'silver foxes' with their nifty deep edges and refined SS. Different flavors, this will attract different age groups and tastes to figure skating. And older skaters wont loose motivation and chances to win their Olympics and Worlds medals. And young guns won't be kicking silver foxes so violently. Win win.

This can be a really working Solomon's Decision. Everyone will be happy. Older skaters could still could be competitive and on demand past their 20. Besides, I would even slightly change the rules for category "Woman 20+" in favor of "component skaters". Let the SS, TR, PE, CH and IM be more valuable than TES and difficulty of jumps. But of course all jumps should still be preferably landed, because otherwise massive splatfest is such a buzz kill for public. Let allow the skaters past 20 years old do less difficult jumps, but they still have to land them. For "women 20+" category the components like artistry, consistency, musicality, smooth gliding and deep edges should be the path to victory. But I repeat lading jumps and consistency still should be an important requirement and rules should encourage older skaters to pick simpler jumps, but land them consistently.

Really, guys, 2 age categories would solve a lot of problems in current ladies field. And we won't arguing and fighting that much. And more events, more ladies means more money for ISU too. FS still will remain artistic and we won't sacrifice pushing the sport and it's natural difficulty evolution. Win win. Every Olympic quad age of categories can be internationally discussed and re-evaluated to keep FS sport both competitive and artsy. But just in different categories. Because let's face it: Trusova, Shcherbakova and Kostornaya are doing beautiful, but different sport already. And soon we will have many young Japanese girls joining them, some American and Korean probably too. And I dont want to deprive them of their chance to win Olympic medals with their amazing athletic abilities of young bodies. But I also don't want Zhenya, Alina, Liza, Satoko, Ashley, Gracie, Karo and many other silver foxes to leave in vain, because they cant compete against such difficult jumps (because sport is sport after all, and after all sport is cruel and unfair to all aging athletes, sooner or later).

We can create 2 different sports for female singles:

Imagine Yulia Lipnitskaya and Ashley Wagner be back competing? Or Liza Tukti, Mao Asada, Yuna Kim and Adelina Sotnikova wont be "terrorized" by daring difficulty of youngsters and imagine they are back to FS and are able to compete RIGHT NOW and have a shot for medals at upcoming Worlds and Olympics? Imagine them competing together in upcoming Worlds in Tokyo? This will sell like hot cakes! Big TV ratings. And youngsters can still be allowed to raise the bar of difficulty, but in their own category. Let the young guns be tricksters, and let "veteran skaters" give us pleasure with their skating. We can have them both at Olympics. This way the prestige, money and awards will be equal for both young and older girls. Fair. 2 different categories = almost like 2 different sports = 2 different sets of medals.

Wha 'bout dat?

We can make a separated thread and discuss it in details. I see a lot of advantages of my idea and some disadvantages certainly too. We can go deep into this in a separate thread if you guys are willing. Frankly, I think this will work for gymnastics as well. WAG will come back to original artistry and still will allow daring youngsters to invent new elements and push difficulty of the sport. Win win for WAG too. Imagine Nabs, Komova, Afan and Aliya to be back in one team competing for next Worlds or Olympics? This will make crazy TV ratings! Our older American golden generation girls be back too.. Our favorite Chinese gymnasts be back. OMG.

 

[gkelly]

I want to propose 2 age categories in female singles:

- Ladies 15-20 years old
- Women 20+

Something like that could work.

Or just make two ladies' singles events with rules different enough that younger skaters would tend to excel in one event and older skaters in the other, but they wouldn't necessarily be forbidden to compete in the area that they're best at based on birthdate alone.

This can be a really working Solomon's Decision. Everyone will be happy. Skaters could still be competitive and on demand past their 20 yo. Besides, I would even slightly change the rules for category "Woman 20+" in favor of "component skaters". Let the SS, TR, PE, CH and IM be more valuable than TES and difficulty of jumps. But of course all jumps should still be preferably landed, otherwise splatfest is such a buzz kill. Let skaters past 20 years old do less difficult jumps, but they still have to land them.

Make the rules such that it would be possible to win without difficult jumps. Maybe by allowing fewer jumping passes total compared to other skills. But if it is a strictly age-based competition, don't make it illegal for the older age group to include their own hardest jumps that they can still do consistently, even if those happen to be jumps that other skaters in that age group aren't doing.

Sure, start a new thread if you want to discuss.

 

[Alexz]

There are ladies ages 15-20 who are extremely artistic, but do not have the best jumps (Gubanova, Miyahara who turned 20 earlier this year) and ladies over 20 who have excellent jumps but weaker skating skills (Tuk). As for being left behind by the younger jumping beans....Tuk has a 3A, which few women of any age are capable of jumping, and even Mao still trains it.

and "artistic girls" without jumping talent can grow up a bit and compete in Women 20+ category. They can have a shot at medals and win they own gold there.

Beyond age itself, I don’t buy that there is this clear dichotomy between “woman’s skating” and “girl’s skating.” I don’t think anybody wants to watch ladies over 20 just because they’re over 20.

My idea of 2 different age categories and different medals for them is not a panacea, but I think this is a fair solution, which will satisfy the most. Jumping beans, silver foxes, older fans, teen age fans - all will be happier than they are now. ISU will have more competitions and more interest. Sport of figure skating will have more flavors, and can offer skating for different tastes and age groups. Sponsors will be happy too - different demographics and all.

I just don't want figure skating or sport be discriminate because of age, gender or etc. If young bodies can allow girls to perform more difficult tricks and it is "unfair advantage" then give them their own sport. With the same equal medals and prestige. I am all here for evolution of sport. Time changes, new methods of training, new equipment, new boots and blades, sport has changed, now younger girls have even more physical advantage. But we can't artificially handicap them and put them into disadvantage simply because of their age. This will kill the sport and competitiveness. We currently have ice shows for this.

 

[plushyfan]

Thank you for explaining,

Canadians may call themselves North Americans, but Americans by itself typically refers to residents of the US. I do not want to speak for our Canadian friends, but I think very few would call themselves “Americans”.

From Europe the Canadians are Americans. We know this is not exact, but this is such way in our minds. Sorry.

 

[cohen-esque]

From Europe the Canadians are Americans. We know this is not exact, but this is such way in our minds. Sorry.

topic: But not to everyone in Europe, apparently? I’ve heard, from various people from different countries, that they consider there to be either 5, 6, or 7 continents, but the exact formulation of that 5-6 changes. Almost always in the 6 continent cases the Americas become one continent, but sometimes they’re separated and Eurasia is treated as a single continent instead— I’m pretty sure I heard about that one from a European. And of course when both are consolidated and you get 5 continents.

(Of course any true intellectual knows that there are actually only the 4 continents of America, Eurafrasia, Oceania, and Antarctica. The ISU *almost* got it right that time.)

Part of the issue with combining the Americas into “America” is that it leaves the US without a proper demonym: We can’t be “United Statesians” because that simply sounds ridiculous in English.

 

[Ulrica]

topic: But not to everyone in Europe, apparently? I’ve heard, from various people from different countries, that they consider there to be either 5, 6, or 7 continents, but the exact formulation of that 5-6 changes. Almost always in the 6 continent cases the Americas become one continent, but sometimes they’re separated and Eurasia is treated as a single continent instead— I’m pretty sure I heard about that one from a European. And of course when both are consolidated and you get 5 continents.

(Of course any true intellectual knows that there are actually only the 4 continents of America, Eurafrasia, Oceania, and Antarctica. The ISU *almost* got it right that time.)

Part of the issue with combining the Americas into “America” is that it leaves the US without a proper demonym: We can’t be “United Statesians” because that simply sounds ridiculous in English.

topic: Per the United Nations, the Olympic Committee, and taking into consideration political geography, there are 5 Continents; America, Europe, Africa, Oceania and Asia.
Regarding the demonym, most english speaking people would use American as the denomyn for people form the US, which is technically correct since the name after all is United States of America, however in reality the USA has not chosen an official denonym nor an official language, and other demonyms, such as unitedstadians, are also technically correct and used widely outside of the USA. Referring to someone as only "american" sounds very vague to me, it doesn't really imply from which country you are from as America is very, very big. For instance, I am mexican, therefore I am north american, consequentially I am american.