Question about Evgenia's step sequence.

[glacial87]

Another thread to bash Evgenia woo

I mean: after a lot of events, especially Grand Prix, Championships there are meetings of the judges. Obviously the majority doesn't have problems with it. Maximize points under the current system AN the way who judges usually understand it - that is the game one has to be able to play with the own capacities. Medvedeva's step sequence obviously is just the thing you have to do, in a clever way coreographed. As long as one doesn't gain more points with something more difficult than using little hops in between (for example doing the whole step sequence with one leg without interruption), it would be silly to do so, getting tired and having problems with jumping passes after that. As far as I remember, Davis/White used little hops quite often and came out on top with that. One may be called the most "aesthetic skater" of the event avoiding those methods to save energy, looking busy, gain speed, without a medal. The other one ends up winning gold. Who would not use some of the possibilities to gain additionel points with endless tanos and so on, as long he/she is able to do so?

 

[loopy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MBwnjUf50E#t=2m39s
At 2:39 she does this jogging motion to pick up speed. Is that normal? I've never seen a skater do that.

The bunny hop?

 

[TGee]

I'm going to assume the OP means this.....right after the twizzles.

https://youtu.be/WzOi8O0fgJ0?t=2m4s

It's like a goofy illusion spin but more of a sideways cork screw thing.

Personally the only thing that irks me is her spread eagles out of some of her jumps. They are just so poorly performed that it feels like a scam for points. I guess it's just my opinion but I think it actually detracts from her jumps. I guess that's just a personal thing that I can't get past.

The bunny hop?

Not how I've seen bunny hops taught or assessed, but it doesn't have a standard in the CoP..

Which brings me to critiques of many things that aren't in CoP and get mixed into step sequences and transitions: speed eagles, spirals, Ina Bauers, Walley jumps.....

With no international standard, does just anything go? Is there any way to level them and grade the quality of execution? Or does it just get the bullet point no matter what the quality?

And if so, skaters are surely incented to throw everything they can into the "complex" choreography regardless of how they would be graded if these non-elements were judged individually.

All to say, while this is not what I'd like to see from Evgenia in specific or a world champion in principle, it's clearly something tolerated and even encouraged by the current code of points structure.

Using it as an example something that we'd like to see addressed IJS evolves seems fair, as she is as world champion, the best representation of what IJS is rewarding. But let's acknowledge that there are a lot of marginal quality moves in the field being included in programs across a diversity of elite skaters from several countries.

 

[gkelly]

Which brings me to critiques of many things that aren't in CoP and get mixed into step sequences and transitions: speed eagles, spirals, Ina Bauers, Walley jumps.....

With no international standard, does just anything go? Is there any way to level them and grade the quality of execution? Or does it just get the bullet point no matter what the quality?

In step sequences: None of these elements automatically adds to the level -- they don't check any bullet points for the tech panel. At best, if they involve use of the whole body then they can contribute to the "Use of body movements for at least 1/3 of the pattern" feature. That would explain the more frequent use of illusions during step sequences.

Judges can reward them in step sequence GOE according to the "Use of various steps during the sequence" bullet point, if they contribute to greater variety in the step sequence. I don't know how many judges tend to award that bullet point. Again, it's not automatic. If these moves contribute positively to the overall execution quality of the step sequence then they can make a positive difference in the GOE. If they are poorly done and detract from the overall quality, then poor execution can cancel out any benefit they add through variety.

As you say, there are no official standards as to what constitutes "good" or "poor" quality, so each judge must decide for herself when to increase or decrease the GOE.

For choreo sequences, the scores (GOEs) are all about quality and reflecting the music and concept of the program.

For Transitions, Difficulty, Variety, and Quality are each important. Including spread eagles, Ina Bauers, walleys, difficult spirals, etc., will add to the difficulty and the variety -- exactly how much is up to the individual judges. Then it comes down to the quality, which is also always an individual judgment.

I would expect that a program with one good spread eagle, one good walley, one difficult entry to an element, one difficult exit or direct connection between elements, and some well-performed simple steps and body movements would score higher than a program with several rushed brief spread eagles/Ina Bauers/spirals, several easy or poorly performed nonlisted jumps, many poorly performed turns before and after jumps and spins, and many meaningless arm movements or poorly performed steps and turns not connected to elements, even though the latter has somewhat more variety and a lot higher quantity (though "quantity" is not an official criterion). But it's up to the individual judges, along with defining the distinctions between poor, average, or good quality.

Should there be official standards for quality on these moves? Would such standards be officially incorporated into the scoring system, or just documented as guidelines for judges to have a better idea when to reward these moves for variety and quality and difficulty, when to reward for only one or two of the above, and when to penalize for poor quality?

 

[[email protected]]

Personally the only thing that irks me is her spread eagles out of some of her jumps.

I like it after the lutz

 

[andromache]

Should there be official standards for quality on these moves? Would such standards be officially incorporated into the scoring system, or just documented as guidelines for judges to have a better idea when to reward these moves for variety and quality and difficulty, when to reward for only one or two of the above, and when to penalize for poor quality?

I think some documentation of guidelines for judges would be useful - but rather than thinking of Transitions or any other PCS category, I think a documentation of guidelines for awarding GOE would be effective. There are bulletpoint guidelines now, but I think a visual guide to GOE would be more practical, especially on spins and steps. Well, especially for spins. I think most skaters get positive GOE rewarded just for executing the spins without falling. I'd like to see judges willing to give out -1 GOE for spins with bad or ugly positions, or 0 GOE for spins that finish very slowly. (And I say this as a fan of ladies like Ashley and Anna, neither of whom are known for very good spins).

 

[gkelly]

There are bulletpoint guidelines now, but I think a visual guide to GOE would be more practical, especially on spins and steps.

That's what trial judging and judging lower levels before qualifying to judge international events, and watching practices (at competitions and at local rinks) is for -- a wide range of real-life examples. But yes, judges from smaller skating countries might qualify to judge internationally with comparatively little experience.

Putting together a guide of visual examples of positive and negative GOE criteria would be useful, but time consuming. The negative examples would mostly come from lower level, non-famous skaters, so the trick would be to include them respectfully, without singling them out as "bad" skaters.

Well, especially for spins. I think most skaters get positive GOE rewarded just for executing the spins without falling. I'd like to see judges willing to give out -1 GOE for spins with bad or ugly positions, or 0 GOE for spins that finish very slowly. (And I say this as a fan of ladies like Ashley and Anna, neither of whom are known for very good spins).

It would be interesting to get data similar to what matscol generated for jumps at US regionals in the Results of removing jump pass in Men's FS thread. I think we would find more negative GOE for spins for lower level and especially lower ranked skaters. Not quite as low on average as for the jumps, because complete failures are much rarer on spins than on jumps.

Here's one place to start for an example: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/ec2016/ec2016_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf
The short program spin GOEs for the ladies who did not make the cut to the freeskate tend to cluster around 0, with a few better spinners earning more 1s and 2s and a couple of skaters earning mostly minuses.

Here's another example with junior men:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/jgpfra2016/jgpfra2016_JuniorMen_SP_Scores.pdf

Lots of negative GOE on spins at the bottom of the field, as well as spins that earn V designations because they don't meet the requirements for full base value, and some that don't count at all.

Those would be examples of bad spins. Spins that achieve several positive qualities but then suffer because they slow down at the end or include some unattractive positions would look good in comparison, which is why they might earn positive GOEs (but probably not +3s).

 

[Mathman]

I think there comes a point at which we just have to let the judges judge. I am not especially in favor of an ever-more-voluminous encyclopedia of rules for good and bad spread eagles, etc.

Thank you to posters like TGee and gkelly for turning a nit-picky and negative thread into a useful discussion.

 

[andromache]

It would be interesting to get data similar to what matscol generated for jumps at US regionals in the Results of removing jump pass in Men's FS thread. I think we would find more negative GOE for spins for lower level and especially lower ranked skaters. Not quite as low on average as for the jumps, because complete failures are much rarer on spins than on jumps.

Here's one place to start for an example: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/ec2016/ec2016_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf
The short program spin GOEs for the ladies who did not make the cut to the freeskate tend to cluster around 0, with a few better spinners earning more 1s and 2s and a couple of skaters earning mostly minuses.

Here's another example with junior men:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/jgpfra2016/jgpfra2016_JuniorMen_SP_Scores.pdf

Lots of negative GOE on spins at the bottom of the field, as well as spins that earn V designations because they don't meet the requirements for full base value, and some that don't count at all.

Those would be examples of bad spins. Spins that achieve several positive qualities but then suffer because they slow down at the end or include some unattractive positions would look good in comparison, which is why they might earn positive GOEs (but probably not +3s).

You're right about skaters at lower levels - it's easy to forget to take them into consideration when discussing judging at the very top.

More of a GOE range would be nice for spins. I don't think it's entirely necessary for jumps, but it would be nice to be able to further differentiate a spin that is better than the lower junior men from an extremely high-quality one. Particularly for men and ladies going for those level 4s and hitting really bad positions. There's simply no way to account for spin positions in levels...but there should be some way to penalize Rika Hongo's Biellman without saying her spin is as bad as a junior man's.

 

[Figure 8's]

Is it me or does she swing her leg on the ice a lot! Like frantically swings her legs expecially during step sequences. She also does this jogging motion to pick up speed quickly after landing a jump and coming to a halt. Do judges not see that as a reason to reduce performance, artistry, skating skill scores? None of the other female skaters do this.

Some just enjoy picking apart her skating. Get over it! She has won just about everything so the Judges don't share your concern,.

 

[KatGrace1925]

Another thread to bash Evgenia woo

There needed to be another one to balance the new addition of one Bashing Gold. #GiveTheGirlsABreak

 

[MarinHondas]

Oh my goodness. You all are much to easily offened. The person that started this thread is simply asking a reasonable question about her stpsq... All you act like she said "Evgenia sucks! She should be in 10th place at every competition!!!!!!!!!" Just bc someone is confused about something she does or is questioning technique that does not equal bashing or hate.

 

[mrrice]

Oh my goodness. You all are much to easily offened. The person that started this thread is simply asking a reasonable question about her stpsq... All you act like she said "Evgenia sucks! She should be in 10th place at every competition!!!!!!!!!" Just bc someone is confused about something she does or is questioning technique that does not equal bashing or hate.

I usually try to stay out of these discussions but, I agree with this comment. A simple question and bashing are two very different things. I used to go through this with Patrick Chan ALL the time. Evgenia is World Champion for a reason. She's a great skater with one of the most strategically choreographed programs of all time. Love it or hate it, those back loaded Tano's get her a ton of bonus points and until someone can do it better, she is the deserved queen of ladies skating.

 

[gkelly]

I'm still not sure what the original poster was referring to with regard to Medvedeva swinging her leg.

I note that she does a lot of counters or edge change-three turns that are preceded by a leg swing. It's pretty common technique to swing the leg before a counter or choctaw or bracket or edge change. So the fact of the leg swings existing would be neither a plus nor a minus, and the fact of numerous difficult turns would be a plus.

The quality of the free leg movement might be less than ideal, which might make a negative impression on judges. And if she is attempting to turn a counter but changing edge before the turn and making it a three instead, that would be a negative.

 

[Imagine]

Oh my goodness. You all are much to easily offened. The person that started this thread is simply asking a reasonable question about her stpsq... All you act like she said "Evgenia sucks! She should be in 10th place at every competition!!!!!!!!!" Just bc someone is confused about something she does or is questioning technique that does not equal bashing or hate.

Well if it hasn't been constantly bashing Evgenia in every one of those 1000 pathetic little lets-pretend-i'm-talking-about-all-skaters-but-lulz-i'm-not-really-cause-ewww-Evgenia safespace threads we have/encourage on this lovely forum, maybe I'd believe you. Yeah, soooo innocent and unassuming, god how rude of us

 

[concorde]

I view the "problem" with Evgenia's skating is she makes it look way too easy - only the very best skaters have this ability! She essentially just "glides" across the ice which makes me think I could do all of these moves (if I tried, I would wind up in the hospital). Added to that she is so consistent in her jumps which again makes one think it is SO easy to do. With her, you really expect two back-to-back excellent programs at each competition - if she misses something, you are actually surprised. With almost every other skater, you hope they can do two good back-to-back programs but it is not an expectation.

And when I say "problem" I am very sarcastic.

 

[yuzushenko]

oh i agree, i can't stand that "spread eagle"
i mean i know she's crazy over hanyu and wants to imitate him and be the female version of him but please dont stick your butt out
also, absolutely no speed out of it..it just looks so bad.

her facial expressions seem very phoned in and ugly too. especially at the end of the 911 program where she just laughs/cringes after her finishing "facial expression".. like, i suppose you obviously weren't too mature and thoughtful about the program if you're just going to do that the second the music ends...no pause for remorse or anything.

i really dislike her flip entrances, it looks like she just kicks/swings her leg and arms to do a simple 3 turn... it just looks really bad/ugly. there's no grace in that jump. her limbs look so stiff when she does that.

but besides that her skating is pretty light so that's pleasant, i like that 3 turn she does with her leg raised.

 

[Meoima]

oh i agree, i can't stand that "spread eagle"
i mean i know she's crazy over hanyu and wants to imitate him and be the female version of him but please dont stick your butt out
also, absolutely no speed out of it..it just looks so bad.

Hanyu's spread eagle is very good and he does not stick his butt out: http://68.media.tumblr.com/bc221a6c95969dba8dceb932ce693f42/tumblr_nyfismHTb61utdtwuo1_500.gif
But to be fair I have noticed most girls stick their butt out during spread eagle so... It is not like Zhenia is doing the worst version of all.

her facial expressions seem very phoned in and ugly too. especially at the end of the 911 program where she just laughs/cringes after her finishing "facial expression".. like, i suppose you obviously weren't too mature and thoughtful about the program if you're just going to do that the second the music ends...no pause for remorse or anything.i really dislike her flip entrances, it looks like she just kicks/swings her leg and arms to do a simple 3 turn... it just looks really bad/ugly. there's no grace in that jump. her limbs look so stiff when she does that.

Well, we blame Eteri and Averburkh for that.

 

[karne]

her facial expressions seem very phoned in and ugly too.

Not as ugly as this comment.

especially at the end of the 911 program where she just laughs/cringes after her finishing "facial expression".. like, i suppose you obviously weren't too mature and thoughtful about the program if you're just going to do that the second the music ends...no pause for remorse or anything.

Nope, nope, nope, nope, I absolutely do not accept this as a valid criticism of ANYONE. There is no rule in the book, no requirement in any guide, saying she has to remain in character as soon as the music stops. If she is happy with her performance then why can't she smile the moment the music stops and she stops? Joshua smiled when he reached the end of Schindler's List after a great skate. Did that mean his facial expressions were "phoned in and ugly" and he should have "paused for remorse"?

 

[yuzushenko]

Hanyu's spread eagle is very good and he does not stick his butt out: http://68.media.tumblr.com/bc221a6c95969dba8dceb932ce693f42/tumblr_nyfismHTb61utdtwuo1_500.gif
But to be fair I have noticed most girls stick their butt out during spread eagle so... It is not like Zhenia is doing the worst version of all.


Well, we blame Eteri and Averburkh for that.

i never said that yuzu's spread eagle wasn't good? his are literally some of the best?

im saying that she tries so hard to imitate him that she adds spread eagles but she can't even do it right so she shouldn't

and yeah it's a shame, ashley's spread eagles also look like that too (butt sticking out) and yikes

yeah i hope she gets some new choreographers soon. though tbh her scores are really great so i dont think her team will care to mess with the formula.