Question about Lutz technique in Japan

[freedomlover]

As the title suggests... I have a question, that has been brewing for a good while.

For all that people rave about Japan's skating schools for their basic skating and good packaging presentation wise, I have wondered, over the course of watching the past two JGP and GP seasons more closely, as well as the Junior and Senior nationals, quite a few Japanese skaters, men or women, struggle with getting a deep outside edge on the lutz jump, when they're mostly technically proficient otherwise?

Even my favourite skaters have a flat or shallow outside edge on their best day.
We have seen so many junior 3As, quad attempts or solid 3-3s which just has me wondering- why do so many skaters struggle jumping a good lutz? Is it something in the way they're taught or is the flip just easier for a lot of people to attempt overall?

I know there's a lot of international skaters who don't have great lutzes either, but I just wanted to ask- because in the past, it used to be the case that when a skater was not able to perform a certain jump cleanly, they wouldn't even attempt it in the program.

 

[yfan1]

Japanese skaters did use to have correct edges on their Lutz - men and women both. See Arakawa, Ando, Hanyu, Kozuka, Machida. Funnily, with Arakawa, Ando, and Hanyu, they had rather obvious Lips (although Ando and Hanyu both worked on them and fixed them).

I expect it's the same reason as others. Lutz used to be a difficult jump that was scrutinized quite a lot, so coaches taught it probably. Now, the scrutiny's gone, so they don't. It's also difficult to do a true Lutz with pre-rotation, and since pre-rotations are also not scrutinized, it becomes a cheap technique to teach.

 

[Anna K.]

As the title suggests... I have a question, that has been brewing for a good while.

For all that people rave about Japan's skating schools for their basic skating and good packaging presentation wise, I have wondered, over the course of watching the past two JGP and GP seasons more closely, as well as the Junior and Senior nationals, quite a few Japanese skaters, men or women, struggle with getting a deep outside edge on the lutz jump, when they're mostly technically proficient otherwise?

Even my favourite skaters have a flat or shallow outside edge on their best day.
We have seen so many junior 3As, quad attempts or solid 3-3s which just has me wondering- why do so many skaters struggle jumping a good lutz? Is it something in the way they're taught or is the flip just easier for a lot of people to attempt overall?

I know there's a lot of international skaters who don't have great lutzes either, but I just wanted to ask- because in the past, it used to be the case that when a skater was not able to perform a certain jump cleanly, they wouldn't even attempt it in the program.

Allright, if you want to understand what's happening you can try it yourself on the floor (no jumping needed).

Stand on the floor with your toes pointing inwards. Shift your weight on one foot - it will be your "outside edge" - then lift the free leg and imitate a toe take-off (don't jump, just try how this position feels). That's the classical concept of a Lutz jump, a very hard position to jump from: your feet are forming a "pigeon toe".

In modern figure skating, we see something else though: skaters make a step backwards at the take-off. So, even with toes still correctly pointing inwards, it rather looks like a ballet position 4 in reverse than pigeon toes.
Now, do what the modern skaters do: stand on the floor with your toes pointing inwards, shift your weight to "outside edge leg" and make a step backwards with your free leg - make a big step, as big as you can, imagine that you need to jump a big jump, a tripple or a quad - and don't jump, just put your "take-off leg" slowly on the floor behind your back and look down at your feet. Are your toes still pointing inwards? Or, do your feet form a straight line?

Long story short, skaters don't flutz because they are taught a specific "flutz technique". They are taught the regular technique but they flutz when they overdo their free leg in an effort to make a big jump. We have only big jumps in modern figure skating, so modern Lutzes become hit-and-miss respectively.

 

[freedomlover]

Allright, if you want to understand what's happening you can try it yourself on the floor (no jumping needed).

Stand on the floor with your toes pointing inwards. Shift your weight on one foot - it will be your "outside edge" - then lift the free leg and imitate a toe take-off (don't jump, just try how this position feels). That's the classical concept of a Lutz jump, a very hard position to jump from: your feet are forming a "pigeon toe".

In modern figure skating, we see something else though: skaters make a step backwards at the take-off. So, even with toes still correctly pointing inwards, it rather looks like a ballet position 4 in reverse than pigeon toes.
Now, do what the modern skaters do: stand on the floor with your toes pointing inwards, shift your weight to "outside edge leg" and make a step backwards with your free leg - make a big step, as big as you can, imagine that you need to jump a big jump, a tripple or a quad - and don't jump, just put your "take-off leg" slowly on the floor behind your back and look down at your feet. Are your toes still pointing inwards? Or, do your feet form a straight line?

Long story short, skaters don't flutz because they are taught a specific "flutz technique". They are taught the regular technique but they flutz when they overdo their free leg in an effort to make a big jump. We have only big jumps in modern figure skating, so modern Lutzes become hit-and-miss respectively.

Oh, thank you for the detailed explanation. Do you think they can prevent those hit and misses? Or does it just become muscle memory at one point.

 

[Anna K.]

Oh, thank you for the detailed explanation. Do you think they can prevent those hit and misses? Or does it just become muscle memory at one point.

Given the work ethics of Japanese skaters specifically, I'm sure they'll fight for improvement from the first day they skate till the last day they skate. Kaori Sakamoto is an excellent example. Her Lutz has improved a lot over the years.
Just, keep in mind that no one is born perfect. Work, work, and more work is needed to get there. I think you shouldn't worry about your favorite Japanese skaters in this respect

 

[yfan1]

Allright, if you want to understand what's happening you can try it yourself on the floor (no jumping needed).

Stand on the floor with your toes pointing inwards. Shift your weight on one foot - it will be your "outside edge" - then lift the free leg and imitate a toe take-off (don't jump, just try how this position feels). That's the classical concept of a Lutz jump, a very hard position to jump from: your feet are forming a "pigeon toe".

In modern figure skating, we see something else though: skaters make a step backwards at the take-off. So, even with toes still correctly pointing inwards, it rather looks like a ballet position 4 in reverse than pigeon toes.
Now, do what the modern skaters do: stand on the floor with your toes pointing inwards, shift your weight to "outside edge leg" and make a step backwards with your free leg - make a big step, as big as you can, imagine that you need to jump a big jump, a tripple or a quad - and don't jump, just put your "take-off leg" slowly on the floor behind your back and look down at your feet. Are your toes still pointing inwards? Or, do your feet form a straight line?

Long story short, skaters don't flutz because they are taught a specific "flutz technique". They are taught the regular technique but they flutz when they overdo their free leg in an effort to make a big jump. We have only big jumps in modern figure skating, so modern Lutzes become hit-and-miss respectively.

I have no clue what you mean here

There seem to me to be distinct techniques that are indeed taught as part of jumping.

One is the proper technique, where if you freeze the frame right after takeoff you can see the free leg is almost straight and the front arm has pulled back behind the body. Boyang Jin has this technique. This is the correct, textbook technique. It's also old-school.

The other, the more popular one now, to pull up into an h with the leg across, and keep the front arm across the body.

I don't at all believe it's possible to do this and not turn all the way forward on the pick. So yeah, it's a technique deliberately taught - and then since you can't actually prerotate when you're on an outside edge, the edge needs to flatten out by the time you leave the ice...

 

[yfan1]

Does not mean that's the ONLY way to Flutz. You can see Sasha Cohen and Tara Lipinski Flutzing despite not pre-rotating. What happened with them is that their free leg used to raise too far in the air before picking in - that's what caused them to get off the outside edge, and it was never changed with them.

 

[Anna K.]

I have no clue what you mean here

Well, I'm explaining this to you as it was explained to me; and I prefer understanding physical things when I try them physically, not by staring at still frames.
I'm not a pro though. So I can but suggest you to go down to your closest skating rink and take a few lessons. When you'll start learning single Lutz, it's very likely that the coach will ask you to do the "pigeon toe" and explain those other things better than I do.

 

[yfan1]

Well, I'm explaining this to you

I mean what do you believe I'm doing?

You can also try to do it the way I've told you. Or observe the way skaters jump? Distinct techniques. Old and modern. I've very much heard this from skaters with jumps.

 

[Anna K.]

You can also try to do it the way I've told you. Or observe the way skaters jump? Distinct techniques. Old and modern.

Nah, I prefer my way
Prerotations, Lutz evolution, all this has been discussed ad nauseam in this forum. Honestly, I don't find it interesting any more.
When I try things physically though, I can discover something new. Is the Lutz hard? You can only find answer if you try. Same about "why do skaters flutz?".

ETA: Having said that, if you (or other readers of this thread) have any physical beginner-level tips about how to do different techniques, I'm all in for trying them. (Except that pre-rotation arm swing! I'm not doing that; my spine is not a corkscrew.)

 

[freedomlover]

I mean what do you believe I'm doing?

You can also try to do it the way I've told you. Or observe the way skaters jump? Distinct techniques. Old and modern. I've very much heard this from skaters with jumps.

Old school technique being mentioned is interesting- because for one, I notice that Mishin students always had solid lutzes at some point (whether they held up is another question but yeah.)
There are established coaching camps in Japan, one being Nagoya based for example. Then you have individual skaters who were taught solid technique by their parents.
Is it a deliberate coaching oversight or... just the way things are done nowadays?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It’s also worth noting that if you do six triples in a LP aside from the lutz, it’s a net positive to add a flutz with the deduction rather than just a low level double jump. So skaters are incentivized to get it done however they can.