Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

[Barb]

It has always been said that in Ice Dance, teams do not repeat programs because it would affect their scores, it affects the way judges perceive them, and truly it is much more common to see repeated programs in singles than in Ice Dance, but in Ice Dance , I do not remember written rules about repeating programs, yet people say that repeating programs is detrimental to the score. I suppose it is like the score by reputation, it is undoubtedly there, although there is no written rule on it.

 

[mrrice]

I have a question about repeating a program. Earlier, I suggested that Gracie return to her "Firebird" LP. Then I thought, would that be a problem since it was choreographed by Lori and worked on by Frank. Would that be a scandal, or is it no big deal?

 

[4everchan]

I have a question about repeating a program. Earlier, I suggested that Gracie return to her "Firebird" LP. Then I thought, would that be a problem since it was choreographed by Lori and worked on by Frank. Would that be a scandal, or is it no big deal?

it was already paid for... no big deal in my opinion...

 

[4everchan]

It has always been said that in Ice Dance, teams do not repeat programs because it would affect their scores, it affects the way judges perceive them, and truly it is much more common to see repeated programs in singles than in Ice Dance, but in Ice Dance , I do not remember written rules about repeating programs, yet people say that repeating programs is detrimental to the score. I suppose it is like the score by reputation, it is undoubtedly there, although there is no written rule on it.

i think that 6.0 is still being felt on figure skating, specifically on PCS, no matter we want it or not... the reality though, is that it's less and less a factor in singles compared to pairs and dance... so I can see why dance teams would not want to risk repeating a free dance, especially when more an more team get the same base value with similar level elements and sometimes, the real difference comes from PCS scores.

 

[gkelly]

Look at gymnastics : for the floor exercise : women do use music... men don't .... men just tumble, no dance choreography. Are skaters sending this message if music is kept for more than one season? Style has become secondary?

Question for any gymnasts/gymnastics fans who may be reading:

How common is it for female gymnasts to keep the same floor exercise music for more than one year? Do they ever change the "choreography" while keeping the same music?

It has always been said that in Ice Dance, teams do not repeat programs because it would affect their scores, it affects the way judges perceive them, and truly it is much more common to see repeated programs in singles than in Ice Dance, but in Ice Dance , I do not remember written rules about repeating programs, yet people say that repeating programs is detrimental to the score. I suppose it is like the score by reputation, it is undoubtedly there, although there is no written rule on it.

In the short dance (or original dance before that), dance teams can't use the same program two years in a row because the required rhythms are different each year. But there are repeats, so a team could easily bring back the same music, if not the exact same choreography, the next time the same rhythm rolls around, if they're still competing.

2008 and 2010 required "folk dance" rhythms only 2 years apart. How many teams repeated their OD music in those years?

For free dances, it has been rare to repeat the same music, but there weren't and aren't any rules against it.

The examples I can think of are teams who weren't satisfied with their new programs, e.g., losing to teams they had usually beaten in the past, going back to older programs later in the season. So it wasn't using old programs that put them behind in the first place, but a symptom of previous struggles.

And then, what do you make of these two dances?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WIwm99Mj_I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nBdBmUo3HY

 

[4everchan]

Question for any gymnasts/gymnastics fans who may be reading:

How common is it for female gymnasts to keep the same floor exercise music for more than one year? Do they ever change the "choreography" while keeping the same music?

hehe.. the music has become so secondary... it's not like in figure skating where people are longing to hear about the program/music choices... they do their tumbling passes, have their "minimal" required choreography which maybe lasts only a few seconds in total and most of the times, any music could work but that's exactly my point... in men, there is no music, and they perform similar routines, instead of the required "dancing or gymnic" moves, men have to perform different acrobatic moves.... all that really matters is how you tumble

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

It mattered a lot more when gymnasts used to actually dance to the music. But they tend to change it every year or so even if a lot of the choreography is the same...much like skating these days. The construction of their uneven bars and balance routines mostly stayed the same except for upgrades and such.

 

[xeyra]

It mattered a lot more when gymnasts used to actually dance to the music. But they tend to change it every year or so even if a lot of the choreography is the same...much like skating these days. The construction of their uneven bars and balance routines mostly stayed the same except for upgrades and such.

I miss the days when Floor Exercises were actually interesting. Don't get me wrong, I love the technical elements, I thrive on really well done tumbling passes, and floor is still one of my favorite apparatus, but when the music is only a tangential accompaniment to bare hints of choreography, it really makes no difference there being music at all anymore.

 

[andromache]

I have a question about repeating a program. Earlier, I suggested that Gracie return to her "Firebird" LP. Then I thought, would that be a problem since it was choreographed by Lori and worked on by Frank. Would that be a scandal, or is it no big deal?

I assume that many skaters, when they decide to re-use a program (especially if it's been a season or two since they have previously used that program) spend at least a bit of time with the choreographer of the program to re-work a few things and get expert input. If your relationship with the choreographer has suffered, it would make that sort of session very awkward. (Of course, we have no idea as to the state of the Gracie/Lori relationship - even though Gracie/Frank obviously soured, Gracie/Lori could be bffs for all we know - don't want to imply that there might've been any negativity there.)

 

[SnowWhite]

In the short dance (or original dance before that), dance teams can't use the same program two years in a row because the required rhythms are different each year. But there are repeats, so a team could easily bring back the same music, if not the exact same choreography, the next time the same rhythm rolls around, if they're still competing.

2008 and 2010 required "folk dance" rhythms only 2 years apart. How many teams repeated their OD music in those years?

I went and checked, and of the 35 teams who competed at either the Olympics or Worlds in 2010, four had programs using some of the same music they used in 2007-08. Only one had the exact same songs listed, while the others either added or removed at least one song.

 

[Eclair]

OK.
Of course, that allows skaters who finished 6-7-8 last year, or who won two years ago but had an off year last year, to repeat programs. If it's such a big advantage to repeat, then that advantage plus a significant penalty to top skaters who repeat should result in skaters cycling in and out of the top 5 each year, especially the 3-4-5 slots.

Which will be more fun for the audience than seeing the same skaters doing the same programs on the podium/in the final group each year. But is it sporting?

In the rules I wrote I included, that skaters placing top 5 are allowed to repeat 1 program without penalty. The penalty only applies, if they repeat both of their programs. Since it's rarely seen that skaters repeat both their programs next season, I don't think it will give skaters placing 6 or below any huge advantage over the top 5.

Who keeps track? What counts of "performing their programs less than three times"? Do nationals or other domestic competitions count? What about senior B event? What about performing the program with full jump content in a show?

Well, all skater's programs are listed on the ISU's website. We could say, that since the top 5 usually participates in the GP, at their first grand prix event the programs are checked and compared to what they skated last season. Since the judges would deduct the PCS points, they should check it. I don't think it's too much work to check the top 5 of last worlds, as they usually don't even all enter the same GP.
Also, I would include that this only applies for one Olympic cycle. If a top 5 finisher wants to repeat his sp from last season and the LP from 5 years ago, that would be no problem.

I meant less than three times internationally at either a GP or worlds or Olympics. I wouldn't count shows or Senior B's, as they can be very early in the season and there are less people following them.

Including Skating Skills and Transitions? Really?

What if they added more transitions this year after they got comfortable with the basic layout of the program? Should that score really go down?
What if they're skating with more speed and confidence born more from the validation of their first top-5 finish last year than from the the fact of a repeat program?

Like I said above, they are totally free to repeat one of their programs and add transitions etc. But if a skater decides to repeat both of his or her or their programs, I'd like a good reasoning. Other skaters put time and effort in learning new choreography and selecting music. If a skater repeats both programs, it gives him/her/them a lot more time to train other things or add transitions/ SS. So yes, I'd deduct -1 at every PCS category. But this is a debatable point, and deducting -1 in CH, IN, PE would be enough, too.

How do you define "90% of their choreography"? Who keeps track?

This one is tricky. I'm not sure, but I'm thinking of Evgenia, when I watched the comparison of her LP of '17 and '16, which apart from the opening sequence is literally the same choreography to different music. I'm sorry, but I don't think that is kind of choreography deserves 10's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hd8ZznXd5s

Again, who keeps track?
Year 1: Skater didn't make it out of their nationals. Or competed on the JGP but weren't old enough for seniors and maybe didn't make it to Jr. Worlds.
Year 2: Skater debuts at Worlds with a promising 10th-place finish, with a program hardly anyone had seen before outside of their home country even though it's the second year they're using it. The program was well received.
Year 3: Skater competes in their first Grand Prix with a new program, but it just isn't working for them. After trying to tweak it and getting more and more frustrated, they decide to go back to the comfortable program for this year's Worlds -- which may be only the 2nd internationally televised competition ever they've skated it at.

this skater is totally free to do so, as the skater would only repeat one of his/her/their programs, because in year 3 it didn't work. Also, I don't count junior competitions. Also see the point about these rules only applying for one Olympic cycle.

 

[mrrice]

I assume that many skaters, when they decide to re-use a program (especially if it's been a season or two since they have previously used that program) spend at least a bit of time with the choreographer of the program to re-work a few things and get expert input. If your relationship with the choreographer has suffered, it would make that sort of session very awkward. (Of course, we have no idea as to the state of the Gracie/Lori relationship - even though Gracie/Frank obviously soured, Gracie/Lori could be bffs for all we know - don't want to imply that there might've been any negativity there.)

I think you're right about that. Doesn't Mariah Bell still have Rohene do her choreography even though she moved from Kori to Raf?

 

[Eclair]

I personally don't like rules that only apply only to a subset of the participants, but I will not argue this as it is a preference.

Can you please define what qualifies as a "new program" in your scenario? and also explain why the skating skills and transitions marks should get a deduction when someone repeats a program? I am curious about your reasoning behind this

I understand the point about feeling uneasy about rules only applying to a subset of participants. But I would never want to put a general no repeats rules for every skater, as there are a lot of skaters who may not have the money to pay for new choreography every season. But I don't like to see figure skating with nearly everyone repeating one or both of their programs. The top 5 usually have some kind of sponsoring going on and can afford it.

A new program is a program to different music. Usually it's not really hard to recognize a new program. But I admit, that in some cases it can be difficult, as I'm thinking of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hd8ZznXd5s
I'd say a new program is either a program to similar, but different music with recognizable different choreography or a program to a totally different music.

As for my explanation why I think all PCS categories should be penalized if a skater repeats both programs, please look above at my answer to gKelly

 

[gravy]

What do you mean by my "biased annoyance"?

Re-using programs to the extent that Ashley and Hanyu are is unprecedented among top skaters in the IJS era. Having not one, but two skaters do something so unprecedented is even more of a surprise. Posters like Lil Kitsu think it's just a coincidence, and I don't. I don't see the problem. It's not "offensive" the way that foul language is, but it's obviously surprising and disappointing to many, many fans. You're happy about it - that's fine. I'm disappointed. That's also fine. Your insistence upon criticizing my word choice and making accusations about my "biased annoyance" is starting to seem downright bizarre, and I would prefer to have a productive discussion with other fans. Thanks.

All due respect, but it really isn't a new trend. I'd say Patrick Chan really spearheaded the trend to reuse programs in the IJS era until well after all the magic has been sucked out. Go back to 2014 when he kept his Elegy short program from the prior season and returned to Four Seasons in his free skate for the third time in his career.

#TrendSetter #NeverGetsTheRespectHeDeserves

 

[andromache]

I think you're right about that. Doesn't Mariah Bell still have Rohene do her choreography even though she moved from Kori to Raf?

She does! It just depends on the individual relationship. I think there was a bit of bad blood between Phillip Mills and Ashley Wagner at one point, so I think that's at least contributed to why she hasn't gone back to a Phillip Mills programs since 2013-2014.

Edit: Sorry, didn't mean to imply that Mariah got her choreo from Rohene this season - I still forget that this season is the new season and not last season. But anyway, she did last season even after her move.

 

[skylark]

So Ashley is repeating her SP for a 2nd time and now is doing MR for a 3rd season? So much for being an artistic skater if she was more versatile with the kind of music and style she skates to she wouldn't need to keep repeating programs.

Fortunately, your opinion isn't the final word on what she needs. The following have been posted twice in the past few pages of this thread, but here they are again for your benefit.

Quote Originally Posted by FCSSp4 View Post
I wouldn't mind Ashley repeating both her programs from the 2015-2016 season bec she's so good at interpretation that I wouldn't put it past her to be more than capable to pull it off (her FS at Worlds '16 gave me goosebumps regardless of the UR calls unclear edges), but if there's anyone I have faith in to capture La La Land, it would be her. Given how concussions have been a problem in the past for Ashley, I'd completely understand. Everyone has their reasons why they choose the programs they do.

I think if people were a lot more understanding for these hardworking people, we'd learn to be more appreciative of their contribution to the sport.

Quote Originally Posted by skylark View Post

Here's a quote from Ashley's interview in July.

The concussions definitely rewired my brain in the way that I process information. My short-term memory is not that incredible; talking to me is a little bit like talking to Dory from "Finding Nemo" [laughing]. It's really affected me in the way that I learn programs because you have to memorize this choreography and the choreography is very intricate. So for me, retraining my brain to be able to learn choreography and be able to remember it, that's probably my biggest challenge.

http://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_...ions-body-2017

 

[Yatagarasu]

.but now, some of these same fans are supportive with other skaters reusing programs..... double-standard.... people complained because that's the program they won WC with... and they shouldn't reuse it... oh really???? they are trying to find the best vehicle to win... but people complain... so why is not okay for them but fine for others?

I checked, the posters who went after D/R aren't even posting in this thread, and certainly aren't defending Ashley/Hanyu, so I don't see how we've reached the point where there are double standards.

Regardless of that, the 'unfair' that Hanyu got slapped with, as well as the 'lazy' appellation that first popped up with D/R, is not something that has any place here. Disappointment is one thing, slapping those labels, and factually incorrect statements onto skaters is another. And yes, as far as I am concerned, it's fine for all of them to choose repeat programs.

How many times will we get to see an hydroblade, a cantilever, any gimmicky choreographic movement that sometimes doesn't even work with the music? Is that necessary?

That has nothing to do with repeating programs. It can be a brand new program, and still have a choreographic element that does not fit the music. In both cases, old or new program, the judges already have an option of marking down the appropriate component. As for an actual repeat of the element, who is going to say how many times is too much? You can only use an IB five times in your career? Two? Three? Four for hydroblade? Six for something else? If you restrict those elements, what about the others? How do you sort those out? Which have a limit, which don't? By what criteria? It's a pandora's box and it's completely unnecessary.

 

[ice coverage]

... Doesn't Mariah Bell still have Rohene do her choreography even though she moved from Kori to Raf?

She does! It just depends on the individual relationship....

True that after moving to Raf, Mariah last season continued to work with Rohene as choreographer.

So ... Yes, for last season.

But for this new season, not necessarily true??

Mariah's IN bio -- which has her 2017-18 music -- lists Cindy Stuart as choreographer. No mention of Rohene.

http://web.icenetwork.com/skaters/profile/mariah_bell​

Has there been reliable information elsewhere that Rohene still is a choreographer for Mariah this season??

 

[blueberryhill]

All due respect, but it really isn't a new trend. I'd say Patrick Chan really spearheaded the trend to reuse programs in the IJS era until well after all the magic has been sucked out. Go back to 2014 when he kept his Elegy short program from the prior season and returned to Four Seasons in his free skate for the third time in his career.

#TrendSetter #NeverGetsTheRespectHeDeserves

I disagree, it started with Brian Joubert.

2002-2004 - Time
2005-2007 - Die Another Day
2008-2010 - Rise
2011-2013 - Genesis/Aerodynamic

 

[Neenah16]

I understand the point about feeling uneasy about rules only applying to a subset of participants. But I would never want to put a general no repeats rules for every skater, as there are a lot of skaters who may not have the money to pay for new choreography every season. But I don't like to see figure skating with nearly everyone repeating one or both of their programs. The top 5 usually have some kind of sponsoring going on and can afford it.

A new program is a program to different music. Usually it's not really hard to recognize a new program. But I admit, that in some cases it can be difficult, as I'm thinking of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hd8ZznXd5s
I'd say a new program is either a program to similar, but different music with recognizable different choreography or a program to a totally different music.

As for my explanation why I think all PCS categories should be penalized if a skater repeats both programs, please look above at my answer to gKelly

What happens then if a top skater had one repeat and one new program and then realized that the new program is not working for them? The rule against repeats would put them at disadvantage because they have to either create a new program mid season or repeat one and lose points. That does not sound fair at all

Also, do you really think the ISU (or anyone for that matter) has the right to force skaters to spend their own money like this? We don't know what those skaters are doing with the money or a guarantee that they do have it because choreography as far as I know is expensive. To be honest I think this rule would be more to the advantage of the choreographers than the skaters or the sport.