Rescoring of 2010 Olympics

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I have to say, I do find Blades of Passion's basic idea an intriguing one. Figure skating is not an obstacle course; the rules should not be something for skaters to stumble over.

This is how I understnd BoP's proposal. Let's say your first element is 3Lo+3T+2T. Your rotation on the 3T is iffy -- the tech panel calls the element 3Lo+2T+2T (although the skater may not be aware of what the call was).

Now you do 3A+2T. BoP's idea is that you haven't Zayaked until you do the second revolution of the 2T. You should get 0 points for that illegal second revolution. But you did do a legal one revolution jump (with a bizarre spin-around on the landing :) ), so you should get credit within the rules for a 3A+1T combo.

I do not see any objection to that.

The reality is only select skaters in select competitions were negatively affected by these rules. Of course scoring can always get bette or previous rules can be reneged. For example the UR rules are stricter now with quarter landing being insufficient and a clean jump needing less than that. We could see a ton of protocols adversely affected.
 

4everchan

Observer
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
This is the very definition of an unfair rule.

I see it more as exceptions to the rule...

in general, most skaters were not affected by it, and managed. An unfair rule to me is something that gives an advantage to a skater over an other before they even hit the ice...
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
This is the very definition of an unfair rule.

There are plenty of rules that adversely affect certain skaters more than others but are still in effect. It’s not to say they can’t be improved upon, and they have, but everyone is skating within the same construct and if your competitor knows how to deal with a mistake to avoid a zayak then they are just a better thinker on their feet.

Someone said a program shouldn’t be a bunch of hurdles, and zayaking shouldn’t make it that. But zayaking is more like a flow chart - if I only did this combo then later on I need to do these jumps... the same way of a skater missed their short program jump combo with a fall on the first jump they would make sure to put their intended solo jump in combination so it would not be deducted. If a skater forgets to do that we shouldn’t blame the system but rather their inability to adapt in the event of an error. That’s probably the simplest form of a skater having to think on their feet but this can be extrapolated to more complex zayak scenario which skaters lost points on simply because they didn’t know the rules better, or they knew the rules but they didn’t adapt better. They do several runthroughs and should trouble shoot for zayak pitfalls... especially if it’s become a thing like with Oda.

A skater should be cognizant of their own rules and strengths and weaknesses. If they are prone to zayaking while most aren’t then they need to address their own issue. If 95% of the field isn’t zayaking their elements then it is a problem that affects only a select few who just can’t think on their feet. If they can’t handle being able to do the math or train for a zayaking scenario then they need to accept responsibility for making a costly error.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
I was hoping for more discussion from people about the specifics of the programs that caused them to grade the PCS as they did, or individual elements. I could have been a bit more generous for Kozuka's PCS in the LP, his demure qualities sometimes make his actual skating seem less difficult than it is, and the drive and deep flowing edges and emotional authenticity in that performance impress me every time. He was also the only guy in the competition to land each type of different jump (considering "Quad" as a jump type).
I was confused by the scores for him here. Someone gave Oda higher SS scores than him which is :confused:

While IDK how you do your judging for CO/IN, I thought these were the best choreographed programs here, but you said Takahashi's were. Kozuka wasn't performing them too well (I have problems with the way he uses his face and head, which makes him look a bit disengaged from the performance, plus affects the interpretation of the music), but I thought the choreo was more creative in the SP (he is also the only one of these 8 to make sure there aren't three jumps back to back - of little importance to me when the choreographic concept works overall, but it grated with Dai). It had a chill vibe from him, as if he were in a college band. I'd put him slightly behind on the three artistic marks because I think he looked a tad too disengaged which hurt him, and Dai does have some nice details to his SP as you point out, but not as much as you did, definitely not on CO/IN.

I found his LP was the best choreographed one here, the only one that managed an overall theme IMO. A much more introspective intepretation than we see, that is damaged a bit by the CoP rules as you mention, but I have lots of love for the way he used his edges in that second step sequence, as if skimming across a pond while in thought, really worked with the music (albeit too busy). I just wish he looked more engaged than that. Takahashi has masterfully choreographed steps and is a better performer, and Kozuka should take a hit on the way he performed the LP here, but the choreography and interpretation scores were about equal, maybe slightly in favour of Kozuka in fact (and I wouldn't go >=9 for anything I saw here for those two components - for any program). I found the NBC commentary for the first time for Kozuka's LP, and it's strange that Bezic says he needs to find his artistic voice lol. It's these introspective qualities that I think the skating community fails to recognize more often that not. Still, the way he projects his body movements across the ice with the full blown speed and flow and the way he moves with the music and not to it... Oh well.

I hope you can take my criticism for your judging :p

Takahashi correctly wins, but Kozuka was silver for me. I had:
1. Takahashi
2. Kozuka
3. Plushenko
4. Weir
5. Lysacek (the one good thing about his skating here is the circular step sequence in the SP)
6. Chan (STILL would have had this guy ahead if he'd just made one less mistake)
7. Lambiel
8. Oda

Oh also, I agree with what you said about steps. :yes: Well, partially. If skating were simply an art form, I agree that technique should simply aid musicality - no matter what. So a skidded loop in a rock program, if it brings out the music, it should be there. But when we get to figure skating, being judged as both sport and an art, we have to make sure we are rewarding proper technique more, and also difficult executions. So to me a skidded loop falls in between. It's not really a loop anymore, but it can be harder to do when rewarded as part of choreography. Same for loops with small lobes (happily they're still loop turns, so we only have to make a judgment call on how difficult it was to do, in context). These are judgment calls that we can discuss via conference as you suggest! :yes: I thought Takahashi's was fine, lol. The steps rules don't (yet) limit us to that extent - we don't call levels based off how a standard turn should look like, nor do we assign GOE based off how standard all the turns were - and I'm happy there. Maybe if he'd done a skidded loop he'd lose a level (but gain GOE for me if it'd worked), but this was fine in terms of being a loop for the level.

To answer the question of bad technique jumps, I think it's again a question of sport vs art. If the look created by a poor technique jump suits the music - strictly in terms of art - give it credit there. But there is still a "correct" technique, which is usually harder to execute than a prerotated jump, so it must be rewarded in GOE more. OTOH, if a good technique jump doesn't fit the program, deduct from PCS. It's definitely a judgment call on "proper technique vs difficulty" - I think correct technique jumps would usually win out, even if it's not always the case, but it's a lot murkier in spins/steps. For jumps, if it were simply an art, people would try to vary the height, distance, rotation amount, everything, to suit a program though (rotation amount can simply be fixed by upgrading or downgrading by a rotation, lol).

Anyway, sad that almost nobody else gave reasons for their scores. I wanted to read those.
 

Daniel1998

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Anyway, sad that almost nobody else gave reasons for their scores. I wanted to read those.

Alright, I'll bite. ;)

Starting with Lysacek: I gave him lower scores than most for skating skills because I personally didn't see much there. He didn't seem to get really deep on any of his edges or get a lot of natural speed. I thought he was whipping his arms a lot to distract from the lack of speed and edge quality he was getting from his skates. As for his programs, I thought they were fine, and he sold them well (I gave him decent scores for performance). They're both warhorses, and I don't think he brought anything novel or substantially interesting to either program, though he did hit some big musical moments on time. You'll find I was around average for CH/INT.
I know BoP hates Lysacek's jumps, and he's right that there isn't much height on them. But they're quite consistent and not usually too scratchy or loose, so I gave most of them a 1. I gave his lutz toe's a 2, because from my memory, he gets a nice running edge off of them and holds the position long. I value quality of landing quite high, so if I'm debating between two numbers, a nice landing might sway me one way. Otherwise I think I was mostly in line here. Overall, I liked both of his programs and think he did have an Olympic 'moment', but I could do with less flailing and a little more simplicity in the programs; I found the amount of extravagant movement almost comical.

Takahashi: I love me a good tango. And after the jump elements were done (and even between them, he was stealing looks at the judges) he really let loose and delivered what I thought was the program of the event (both short and free). I really like how he uses his whole body, and the movements and musical phrasing seem so natural to him. That's why I went nuts on CH/INT for that program. I don't regret it, I could watch that program all day. I think the crowd reaction during the skate made me really excited too, lol. I thought the free was less successful, possibly due to the missed technical elements? I still enjoyed it, but I didn't feel the same connection to it as I did with the short. (Some really lovely moments though! Including the pose right in front of the judges.) Without a doubt though, the most enjoyable skater of the event to me, and the only programs I find myself watching again.
As far as the elements go, I thought I was mostly in line, though I did give the short program lutz a 3. I knew in my head I would probably be the only one to give it a 3, but I just loved how well it was timed, the slight delay, the LOOK on his face when he knew he got it around. I'll have to revisit the axel in the free which I only gave a 1... I was probably too harsh there, but I often find double toe combinations kind of ugly, so that might be a preconception on my part. His spins don't do much for me, but I was quite generous with the step sequences because, well. I'll just say it doesn't look like I was alone.

With Plushenko, I didn't find his programs as upsetting as some others did. The transitions aren't great, sure, but I didn't see what made them so much worse than others in the event. Yes, he's skating around between elements, but... aren't most people? Would like to see what others have to say about the matter. I gave him high PE marks for both programs because I feel like he does know how to give face and sell whatever it is he's doing, even if he isn't doing a lot. I gave slightly higher marks in CH/INT for the free, because I thought the music suited him more and he looked more comfortable with the moves. Aranjuez I think requires a little more depth and nuance in the interpretation (which we've seen from others since), whereas the Tango piece he chose only required some dark looks and some butt-wiggling(?), and the beat was really easy to identify and hit the choreo with.
I was a little off on some of the elements here: I was the only one to give the lutz in the short a 2 (I bet it had a good landing). It really shows how much I value the landing; if you have good speed and position on your landing, I'm more than likely going to give you the benefit of the doubt, because it's the last thing I see. Wrong of me, I know, but when you have to judge these things instantaneously, biases and tendencies form without you really realizing it. I gave the quad triple in the free a zero (unlike everyone else) because he really got stuck on the landing of the quad which totally killed the flow of the combination. Even on replay I don't think I'd give it a 1. In any case, I thought his spins were fine and liked the dedication with which he performed his step sequences. In general though, while technically great, I found his performances forgettable. Not something I'd rewatch for years to come.

Weir: I don't see much in his skating to warrant anything in the 8 level. I find his edges quite shallow (the crossovers especially are not very pleasing to my eye, for some reason), the steps kind of boring, and he doesn't skate really fast. He usually seems to be standing up and gliding with straightened legs, and I prefer more use of the knee. It just feels more connected to the ice. The short program was a bore, to me. I didn't understand the concept, the music kept switching genres, and the timing was all wrong between the choreography and the musical elements. The free worked better, and I thought he had a really good understanding of what the music was trying to convey and used his lines nicely to communicate the program. So I gave him higher INT and PE scores for the free.
The elements were fine, for the most part. For the short program i just missed the edge call on the flip, evidently. The jumps will never wow you with distance, speed, or ease, but they're usually consistent, so I gave a lot of them a 1. I was a bit high with the opening flip in the long (I understand why you'd go 1 instead of 2) but don't really understand the zeros or the -1s on that element, frankly. Decently high, good air position, and well-landed with a nice high free leg. The first spin I just had no idea what to do with, so I gave a zero.

Chan: With Patrick, it was a tale of two skates for me. I really enjoyed the short (here I go with my tangos again...), and I liked it because I hadn't heard the piece before, and it was a different (but still interesting) take on the genre. I loved the freedom of movement and expression- it was an attack, but a composed and precise attack with some great choreographic moments. But it was also a program that had a lot of youth and innocence to it, which was a cool contrast to what you'd expect given the music. The free I found less enjoyable; from the music choice, it all felt so pedestrian and I thought the choreo was less inventive and unique, not tailored to what he was capable of. I also felt like the music overwhelmed him at points, and the technical miscues (especially the 3A fall which took me right out of the program) didn't help. The PCS I gave reflects this.
As for the elements, the step sequence in the short was one of my favourite of the competition. I gave the final spin a 2 not realizing it was actually supposed to have more positions other than a sit (and I thought the positions, centering, and speed were all good for those sit positions). I gave the lutz toe loop combo in the free a 1 (lower than average) because he seemed a little off balance on the final landing of the loop. I gave the solo loop a zero because I didn't like his air position; he was way out of the circle and kind of saved it on landing. Otherwise I was mostly in line here. Strong programs, but (obviously) he would develop into an even better skater and performer later on.

Kozuka: I like his skating. In retrospect I think 8.00 for skating skills is too low given his speed and quality/control of edges, but I think I marked him first and had no benchmark for comparison. I would probably go 8.25, maybe 8.5, here. There isn't too much variety, I find, in the types of crossovers and other methods he uses to pick up speed, which is why I wouldn't go higher than that. I liked the short program, and thought it was a good fit for him. It felt very 'easy'. It was one of those programs I watched without any worry- it didn't captivate me, but it was a breeze to watch and almost made me forget it was the Olympics. The free, though, missed the mark for me. It's a grand piece of music, with sweeping melodies and intricate instrumentation, and requires a lot of commitment and outward expression. He doesn't really use his face at all, and it felt like he was going through the motions between the jumps here- I couldn't feel the intensity of the music in his limbs. He's a really fast and fluid skater, but he stops short of making a big impact on me because he doesn't project the sentiment of the music as much as I think he can.
There isn't much to say about the jumps or other elements here, lots of 1's which were pretty consistent across the board from all judges.

I'm tired so I'll just say: I found Lambiel bland af and was really disappointed with his choice to skate to two 19th century operas in almost the exact same style. I thought the PCS I gave were quite generous, and they were still lower than average. Unbelievable spins though, good lord.

Oda: I LOVE. HIS. KNEES. That is all.

EDIT: for anyone wondering, I'm judge 5. Some of my reasonings may not make sense (and sometimes I admit to bias and tendencies), so just a reminder I have little to know technical knowledge about skating and don't even skate myself, so I'm just doing the best I can.
 

anonymoose_au

Making rhinestone vest and tie combos cool
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Feb 22, 2014
Country
Australia
This is the very definition of an unfair rule.

Even Plushy fell afoul of this rule and it cost him a GPF Gold. Neither he or Mishin realised it until the scores came up in the KnC and then they were like :confused:

I always thought invalidating the entire combo was unfair, so was pleased when the rule changed.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Thank you, Daniel1998! I'll begin with Plushy, since you bring up something interesting.

With Plushenko, I didn't find his programs as upsetting as some others did. The transitions aren't great, sure, but I didn't see what made them so much worse than others in the event. Yes, he's skating around between elements, but... aren't most people? Would like to see what others have to say about the matter.
Yes, so this. I think, for whatever reason, we are supposed to look at transitions for the heck of them and claim that there's something there. IMO, the reason you could come to the conclusion that what Plushy is doing is not that different from others in the competitions is because they have approximately the same artistic worth. Plushy simply eschewed transitions for the sake of transitions and did straight glides into jumps. Not that different from Patrick Chan's complex transitions that added nothing to the program, or Evan Lysacek's (simpler than Chan's) transitions that added nothing to the program.

Compare those to this from a man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft0kyWtYmkg

These are not only more intricate compared to anything we saw in 2010 Olympics, but a lot of them blend the technical elements together. I won't point those out just because I think I'll ruin the effect if you're watching it for the first time.

I think Jeremy Abbott showed the best skating skills of the 2010 competition, btw, lol.

By far my favorite programs tend to have an entirely uncomplicated flow across the ice, though. Like this piece from Mao Asada: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n8odc0iymo

I think most... won't be caring about transitions there.
I gave him high PE marks for both programs because I feel like he does know how to give face and sell whatever it is he's doing, even if he isn't doing a lot. I gave slightly higher marks in CH/INT for the free, because I thought the music suited him more and he looked more comfortable with the moves. Aranjuez I think requires a little more depth and nuance in the interpretation (which we've seen from others since), whereas the Tango piece he chose only required some dark looks and some butt-wiggling(?), and the beat was really easy to identify and hit the choreo with.
I agree that he's a great performer, but it showed more in the LP than the SP (which I scored a 5 on Interpretation). I have him as second on the PE mark for the LP (with first place going to Dai). I really like the interpretation in the LP, it shows how random choreography isn't needed to make a nice artistic effort. Sure he deserved low SS, TR and CO, but the other two were very nice.

I didn't go too high on GOE for anything he showed here (except the 3A in the SP and the circular steps in the LP, IIRC).
Lysacek: I gave him lower scores than most for skating skills because I personally didn't see much there. He didn't seem to get really deep on any of his edges or get a lot of natural speed. I thought he was whipping his arms a lot to distract from the lack of speed and edge quality he was getting from his skates.
Lysacek's stroking is probably the worst from a male World Champion under CoP. His edges are very weak, and he has a stiff quality to his movement across the ice. His exaggerated arm movement looked like flailing, and failed to create even a slight illusion of volume or strength. His circular steps in the SP were nice -Lori Nichol did a great job with that one thing- but that's really it. He mostly got zeros on his jumps and other elements from me, and I gave him a 6 on his LP interpretation.
I think he still showed more interesting nuggets in the LP than Lysacek, like that circular step sequence. I got the concept of the SP, but it was generic. I do think he showed more for me compared to Lysacek and Plushy in terms of SS though, he got across the ice with nicer flow and glide, at least.
Takahashi
He's the best skater of this event for me, in fact. He's the most musical man ever, IMO, and showed masterful steps, truly a stunning performer.

I do have issues with the way he choreographed his program here though, specifically the straight line steps in the LP. He does a 3Lz+2T and then goes into a slooooow spin before pulling into steps. I think with the way the music was flowing after he landed the jump, he should have swapped his two Lutz passes around, and then should have built up speed via stroking (forward crossovers) and then dived into the steps. The musical cue where he begins the steps in the real program would have then come in the middle of the steps in my version, and it could have given him a contrast in terms of movement (longer edges up until that point, more excitable movement after it). Then ended with two spins back to back, with an emphasis on speed.

I think they're still great steps, but they didn't really aid an overall concept, so he takes a hit on CO/IN. He does similar things in the SP, but the music works with the way he powerfully pulls out of the spin and dives into the steps.

Kozuka: The free, though, missed the mark for me. It's a grand piece of music, with sweeping melodies and intricate instrumentation, and requires a lot of commitment and outward expression. He doesn't really use his face at all, and it felt like he was going through the motions between the jumps here- I couldn't feel the intensity of the music in his limbs. He's a really fast and fluid skater, but he stops short of making a big impact on me because he doesn't project the sentiment of the music as much as I think he can.
I think it's true that he's not the most captivating of performers, and could project more. I still think that he brought out the qualities of the music via the choreography, even if not the way he performed it. Of course that means he deserves to take a hit on PCS. Like the step sequence I mentioned, where he emphasises the theme of his program via longer, deeper edges. The music at that point reminds me of someone gently rowing a boat, and his choreography really reflected that.

Oda: I LOVE. HIS. KNEES. That is all.
True that he had great knees and the speed that came from it, but he failed to use the edges in particularly fluid ways, nor were they too deep.

Simply for SS, I had
SP: Takahashi>Lambiel>Kozuka>Chan>Weir>Lysacek>Oda>Plushy
LP: Kozuka>Takahashi>Lambiel=Chan>Weir>Oda>Plushy>Lysacek

Oh boy, that was all based off memory.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
When IJS first came in, jumps that were downgraded were called as the jump with one revolution fewer. So downgraded triples showed up in the protocols as doubles, and downgraded quads showed up as triples.

E.g., at 2003 Skate America Michael Weiss executed a 3T+3T combination (probably planned as 4T) followed by a downgraded quad toe. All appeared as 3T in the protocol. The way the computer program was written at the time, this meant that the quad earned 0 points.
That was a very harsh and unfair rule. The skater doesn't even know that his/her jump is downgraded when he/she skates and can't change his layout to avoid loss of points.

I guess it wasn't apllied with triples and doubles since you could do as many doubles as you wanted.

That's as harsh as the automatic downgrade for UR jumps.

If Sherbakova had skated under those rules she could have seen her two 3lzes invalidated.

Now i'm imagining Satoko Miyahara skating under those two rules + the current who forbid more than 2 doubles of same type.
Her TES at 2013 junior worlds would have been low, very low for visually clean programs. The viewers would have been more shocked than they were for the free skate score.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
That was a very harsh and unfair rule. The skater doesn't even know that his/her jump is downgraded when he/she skates and can't change his layout to avoid loss of points.

I guess it wasn't applied with triples and doubles since you could do as many doubles as you wanted.

That's as harsh as the automatic downgrade for UR jumps.

If Sherbakova had skated under those rules she could have seen her two 3lzes invalidated.

Now I'm imagining Satoko Miyahara skating under those two rules + the current who forbid more than 2 doubles of the same type.
Her TES in 2013 junior worlds would have been low, very low for visually clean programs. The viewers would have been more shocked than they were for the free skate score.

I find it hard in a program to tell between < and clean sometimes, but am usually able to do it. It is very obvious to me when I downgrade a jump.
That been said the rule is absolutely stupid.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
I find it hard in a program to tell between < and clean sometimes, but am usually able to do it. It is very obvious to me when I downgrade a jump.
That been said the rule is absolutely stupid.
The rule was savage. For an URed 3lz you get a 2lz with negative GOEs.
With only one rotated triple in the competition and four "e", TP sure had eyes in that competition. Her luck it was 2013 and not 2009 for example. It would have been worse. I think if the rule was still applied ISU would have removed it after that competition. It would have been shocking to see two clean programs with overall 10 triples get combined TES under 50-60
Congrats to her for apparently improving her jumps so much that she does competitions with 0 UR and edge calls.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Even Plushy fell afoul of this rule and it cost him a GPF Gold. Neither he or Mishin realised it until the scores came up in the KnC and then they were like :confused:

I always thought invalidating the entire combo was unfair, so was pleased when the rule changed.

Okay this was a pretty standard rule though. You were only allowed 2 combos in a freeskate. And the fact that Plushenko literally JUST did 2 combos prior means that he should have known better than to do a 3rd right after.

So what was supposed to happen? The computer invalidate the 2T, give full credit for the 3A - and pretend like he didn't do a 3rd combo and receive no penalty? The 3A should have been given a REP deduction, so he lost credit for the 2T and didn't get full value for the 3A because it was used in a zayaked combo, but REP wasn't a thing at the time, and eventually the rules accounted for that. Point being: the rule was you couldn't do a 3rd combo, and the rules stated that a jumping pass with a Zayak would receive no value; assuming his team and Plushenko himself actually read the rules they would know that doing a 3rd combo is dangerous. But clearly by their confusion, they had not trained to adhere to the rules - otherwise they wouldn't have been so flummoxed when the scores came up. To complain after the fact that the 3A counting for nothing is stupid (while a valid complaint) still doesn't discount the fact that he did something that - according to the rules - gets no value, and he (and his coaching team if they never told him about the dangers of doing a 3rd combo) should take responsibility for that.

Plushenko also completely left out a 3S, which also cost him the win (which is interesting, as omitting a 2L cost Plushenko the 2010 Olympic gold medal too - whether it was forgetting to do full planned elements, or assuming he had already done enough to win).

Also, he did a 2A instead of a second triple axel, which also cost him the win. (The only triple/quad he repeated was his 4T.)

So along with the 8.8 BV lost by the 3A+2T, he also lost 4.2 BV lost by doing a 2A instead of a 3A, and 4.8 BV for not doing the 3S.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf0304/index.htm
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf0304/gpf0304_men_fp_scores.pdf
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
That was a very harsh and unfair rule. The skater doesn't even know that his/her jump is downgraded when he/she skates and can't change his layout to avoid loss of points.

I guess it wasn't apllied with triples and doubles since you could do as many doubles as you wanted.

That's as harsh as the automatic downgrade for UR jumps.

If Sherbakova had skated under those rules she could have seen her two 3lzes invalidated.

Now i'm imagining Satoko Miyahara skating under those two rules + the current who forbid more than 2 doubles of same type.
Her TES at 2013 junior worlds would have been low, very low for visually clean programs. The viewers would have been more shocked than they were for the free skate score
.

But she wouldn't have the same layout. She would have optimized her layout to fit within the rules and prevent Zayaks from happening. And if she ever did accidentally Zayak you can bet Eteri would never let it happen again. I'm sure Medvedeva got a wrap on the wrists too about going rogue with her additional 3T at EC2017 since the +REP cost her basevalue on the double axel. But she was so far ahead and still pulled 150 points that it didn't even matter - plus I'm sure on some level Eteri loved Medvedeva asserting her dominance that way.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
But she wouldn't have the same layout. She would have optimized her layout to fit within the rules and prevent Zayaks from happening. And if she ever did accidentally Zayak you can bet Eteri would never let it happen again. I'm sure Medvedeva got a wrap on the wrists too about going rogue with her additional 3T at EC2017 since the +REP cost her basevalue on the double axel. But she was so far ahead and still pulled 150 points that it didn't even matter - plus I'm sure on some level Eteri loved Medvedeva asserting her dominance that way.

She could have done a valid 3-3-3 (and be the first to do so) instead of a 4th combo. By doing only two combo. She did one at rusnats but it was invalid and the 3rd triple was URed. She had 20 points lead before every competition so she could afford that.

I wonder if anyone else in history had so much lead that he/she was yoloing extra jump in programs. Maybe Plushy.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Joined
Jan 25, 2013
She could have done a valid 3-3-3 (and be the first to do so) instead of a 4th combo. By doing only two combo. She did one at rusnats but it was invalid and the 3rd triple was URed. She had 20 points lead before every competition so she could afford that.

I wonder if anyone else in history had so much lead that he/she was yoloing extra jump in programs. Maybe Plushy.

Well, here's the thing - yolo-zayaking can still get you "history" -- e.g. Medvedeva technically belongs to the club of select few ladies who have done an 8-triple freeskate because of EC2017. One didn't count, but she still executed 8 triples cleanly.

A skater like Nathan Chen can do quads at the drop of a hat and if he wanted to, in a minor competition like a Challenger Series where he wasn't facing stiff competition, he could get through his 5 quads in his FS and with an insurmountable lead, replace his spins or a footwork sequence with an extra quad(s) that's worth nothing but still gets him the "first to do 7 quads in a program" honour. In the SP, Chen could throw in an extra quad that's of zero value and be the first skater to do 3 quads in a short program. Or Hanyu could easily throw in an extra 3A in his SP and be the first to do two triple axels in a short program, just for the "history". :biggrin:
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Well, here's the thing - yolo-zayaking can still get you "history" -- e.g. Medvedeva technically belongs to the club of select few ladies who have done an 8-triple freeskate because of EC2017. One didn't count, but she still executed 8 triples cleanly.

A skater like Nathan Chen can do quads at the drop of a hat and if he wanted to, in a minor competition like a Challenger Series where he wasn't facing stiff competition, he could get through his 5 quads in his FS and with an insurmountable lead, replace his spins or a footwork sequence with an extra quad(s) that's worth nothing but still gets him the "first to do 7 quads in a program" honour. In the SP, Chen could throw in an extra quad that's of zero value and be the first skater to do 3 quads in a short program. Or Hanyu could easily throw in an extra 3A in his SP and be the first to do two triple axels in a short program, just for the "history". :biggrin:

Better to make it count:biggrin:. Too bad to waste that energy for something that won't be officially recognized. Technically, Medvedvea isn't in that club. FS history book won't include her in that club. Because she didn't master the jump she needed to respect the rules and be legally in that club. Her being in that club would be like cheating. Kihira is the only one who did 8 clean triples during that season.

Yeah Chen got a ratified 4lo during one of those competitions. In events with real rivals he doesn't take the risk.

Skaters like these two could have benefited from their special abilities with more flexible rules. I would like more freedom in SP, especially for ladies. It's supposed to be the technical program, so each skaters should be able to show what he/she does the best technically or the hardest element they can do.
If ladies could put any jump in combo or any number of jumps Medvedeva could have landed a legal 3-3-3, Shcherbakova and Trusova a 4lz-3T (and wouldn't hhave been 10 points behind Kostornaya because of an unfair rule).
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Better to make it count:biggrin:. Too bad to waste that energy for something that won't be officially recognized. Technically, Medvedvea isn't in that club. FS history book won't include her in that club. Because she didn't master the jump she needed to respect the rules and be legally in that club. Her being in that club would be like cheating. Kihira is the only one who did 8 clean triples during that season.

Yeah Chen got a ratified 4lo during one of those competitions. In events with real rivals he doesn't take the risk.

Well, it's more like in events with real rivals he did harder quads like 4Z and 4F instead of a 4L which was easier/less valuable. Unless you mean adding a 4L - in which case he doesn't NEED to take the risk, as with his current content he still obliterated the field like at top-level events like Worlds 2018, Worlds 2019 or GPF 2019. He probably could risk a 4L, but if he's uncomfortable with it, doesn't need it to win, then he's just padding his victory that much more, which isn't really necessary. I think he learned a valuable lesson when he injured himself at Nationals about taking unnecessary risks just for show.

He could also be building for the Olympics in 2022 by "leaving room" to add more difficulty instead of going all out. As we've seen, in competitions he bides his technical content based on who he is competing against and their scoring potential, as well as the importance of the event. He'll bring out the big guns for Worlds and GPF and then dumb down his content for CS/GP/Nationals to do enough to win but not peak too early.

For 2010 it was unfortunate that some skaters (peaked earlier like Takahashi in 2008) because they could have placed higher. Nathan could be rationing his content/difficulty leading up to the next Olympics to avoid the same thing from happening.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Well, it's more like in events with real rivals he did harder quads like 4Z and 4F instead of a 4L which was easier/less valuable. Unless you mean adding a 4L - in which case he doesn't NEED to take the risk
It's a risk because he doesn't control the jump as well as 4lz or toe jumps generally (he has more issues with edge jumps even if he improved). It worth more than 4T and 4S. If he had mastered it and landed it more than once he would have replaced a 4T or the 4S by it.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
It's a risk because he doesn't control the jump as well as 4lz or toe jumps generally (he has more issues with edge jumps even if he improved). It worth more than 4T and 4S. If he had mastered it and landed it more than once he would have replaced a 4T or the 4S by it.

Well I guess Hanyu hasn’t mastered the 4L otherwise he would replace his 4T or 4S in his current SP? :sarcasm:

While Chen performs toe jumps exceptionally well he has still confidently landed several 4S and gained a lot of consistency (and quality) on his 3A. Its a comfort thing. Chen clearly can do a 4Z and 4F in one program but doesn’t do both in his SP at the moment - same with Hanyu and his 4L. It’s not to say they couldn’t put that in their SP if they wanted to. Especially now that the ISU has placated 4L fans and put it on par with the 4F and 4Z I think we might see Chen bring back the 4L. Lol and as a Hanyu fan I’m not sure if I would taunt Chen for not putting the 4L back in and potentially expanding his win margins even more. :biggrin: I mean I would love to see Chen do a program with all 5 types of quads as only he has competitively shown the ability to do... but I also understand that quads are hard and if he’s going to win by 20+ points I’m not gonna hold it against him for not risking a less desirable jump and win by 25.

He hasn’t jumped the 4L much but when he did do it at the US Classic and Japan Open it was absolutely secure - and right on the music too. He could certainly bring it back and I wager we see a 4L again from Chen before we see Hanyu get a 4F (or 4A). Until that ever happens Chen doesn’t need it.
 

synesthesia

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Country
Germany
For 2010 it was unfortunate that some skaters (peaked earlier like Takahashi in 2008) because they could have placed higher. Nathan could be rationing his content/difficulty leading up to the next Olympics to avoid the same thing from happening.

There are many factors that play into the timing of peaking, many of which aren't within the skater's control. You're always at risk to get injured and you can't anticipate how the relationship with your coach/your team is going to develop for instance. Dai peaked at 4CC in 2008, aided by being in good health and having a coach, who managed to boost his confidence. Just one month later, at Worlds, Dai and Morozov were at loggerheads and that presumably reflected on Dai's result. He came fourth despite being the heavy favourite to win. The split followed shortly after and then Dai tore his ACL in practice on the landing of a 3A just before his first GP event of the next season. In his case rationing of content/difficulty wouldn't have helped one bit.

Despite the aforementioned injury Dai landed the largest number of quads with positive GOE (8) and achieved his highest TES ever (97,36) in 2012, which I consider his pinnacle since he successfully executed a high level of tech content with a comparable degree of "consistency" to the 2007/08 season combined with excellent presentation. Apart from these two plateaus his career was mostly a roller-coaster ride where he would go from peak to bottom (relatively speaking) quite often from one competition to the next.

Imo comparisons with Nathan, who has been a consistent competitor over a longer time span, don't make much sense.
 
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