Sasha Cohen update

[Spun Silver]

Is this in response to what I wrote? "I like who we have out there now."

Not exactly - it was more in response to "I wouldn't [give an arm and a leg to have Michelle and Sasha back to compete with the current crop]."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there seems to be a pretty consistent theme in your posts that the older skaters should retire and stay retired. As I understand it, your main concern is that the younger generation have its time in the sun.

I like the younger ones too but not to the point of wanting to protect them from the competition. Or wanting to guarantee that no one on the podium be more than 21. JMO.

 

[Mathman]

I think I would rather put it this way.

The topic of this thread is the Phil Hersh article that starts out

Two months ago, despairing of the prospects for U.S. women's figure skating at the 2010 Winter Olympics in terms of both medal chances and excitement, I wrote a Blog item beseeching Sasha Cohen to come back.

Me? Although I do not expect that a U.S. lady will win a medal next year (no matter who does or does not come back), I am not in despair over it. I am not despondent about the Olympics (go Khokhlova and Novitsky!) and I do not think that we need to look to the past for someone to save it.

Let Sasha take her shot by all means. But if it doesn’t work out I will be rooting for Mirai and Rachael, or for Caroline and Ashley – dare I hope? – AND Alissa. (This is after we win three spots in LA )

 

[Spun Silver]

I think I would rather put it this way.

The topic of this thread is the Phil Hersh article that starts out



Me? Although I do not expect that a U.S. lady will win a medal next year (no matter who does or does not come back), I am not in despair over it. I am not despondent about the Olympics (go Khokhlova and Novitsky!) and I do not think that we need to look to the past for someone to save it.

Let Sasha take her shot by all means. But if it doesn’t work out I will be rooting for Mirai and Rachael, or for Caroline and Ashley – dare I hope? – AND Alissa. (This is after we win three spots in LA )

But why must you keep referring to Sasha dismissively as "the past"? That's what I don't understand. Is 27-yr-old Venus Wiliams "the past"? Was 24-yr-old Khorkina competing for her 3rd World Gold "the past"?

I don't really know why Sasha wants to return - maybe she wants to end on a higher note than "the one who always falls" (even my husband always jokes about her, and trust me, he didn't get it from me!). Lots of athletes care about their record in the history books - why shouldn't she?

Anyway, when ("if" seems like a technicality at this point) she comes back, she'll compete under the same rules as everyone else, and unless the judges fall down and kiss the ice she steps on -- and I think it's a lot more likely she'll get punished for taking so much time out -- no one should have any complaints about her taking up the teenagers' space. After all, teenagers have the edge in this sport. If they can't beat an old 25-year-old, shame on them!

As for despair - what?? I'll feel bad for her if her return doesn't work out but I certainly won't despair. Go, Ashley, Mao and Miki!

 

[R.D.]

But why must you keep referring to Sasha dismissively as "the past"?

I know this wasn't directed at me but just a general statement: It's true. She IS the past. I mean, look- she peaked SIX years ago during the GP, and kind of stagnated/wavered a bit up to her lucky Olympic silver. Which is OK in itself, but here's the thing- she's been out of the picture for THREE years. The next wave of competitors has swooped in. And after three years, people talk about her career in the past tense. Simple as that.

 

[Spun Silver]

I have no problem when people talk about matters of fact: absence from competition and the difficulties of a comeback.

But there is a lot of interpretation going on in a summary like the following:

She IS the past. I mean, look- she peaked SIX years ago during the GP, and kind of stagnated/wavered a bit up to her lucky Olympic silver.

Here "the past" is a value judgment about a major decline.

I would say rather that she left as US champion, OSM, and with a long unbroken record of podium finishes that no American lady at the moment can match.

In my own interpretation, there's a fascinating tension between her enormous talent and the challenges she'll face as an older skater facing the young Turks, as well as judging changes that could work against her. It's hard to call. But it's a great story and the competition should generate some terrific skating.

 

[R.D.]

Here "the past" is a value judgment about a major decline.

Clarification: I was speaking in terms of her SKATING, not in terms of medals or titles. sure, she may have won more medals later on but her skating basicallly stayed the same, just different arrangements of music.

But I am done with this thread. Back to the present.

 

[Particle Man]

look- she peaked SIX years ago during the GP

So her OSM wasn't her peak, but rather her consistency under Tarasova? Therefore, this "peak" Sasha under Tarasova, being a higher peak, could realistically have won OGM? Sasha appreciates your unintended compliment.

 

[Mathman]

But why must you keep referring to Sasha dismissively as "the past"?

I love the past. There is nothing dismissive about the past. It is one of my favorite...um...temporal directions?

The point I was trying to make is not the "past" part but the "dismissive" part.

In my opinion Hersh's last several columns about figure skating have had as their main point the dismissing of all the current U.S. ladies' competitors as being not only bad skaters but also so boring that they will drag the whole Olympics down. Besides these two articles on Sasha he had a similar one a couple of weeks ago saying, oh if only Michelle would come back and breathe some life into the rotting corpse of U.S. ladies figure skating.

He could have said instead, wouldn't it be cool to add veterans like Sasha and Michelle to the mix, yay!

I don't really know why Sasha wants to return - maybe she wants to end on a higher note...

Here's a Sasha quote from a more recent Phil Hersh article (Feb. 27)

"I’m definitely not coming back because I feel like I need an Olympic gold. I would be coming back because I feel like I have more to give,’’ Olympic silver medalist Sasha Cohen on why she is considering a return to competitive skating.

 

[Mathman]

So her OSM wasn't her peak, but rather her consistency under Tarasova? Therefore, this "peak" Sasha under Tarasova, being a higher peak, could realistically have won OGM? Sasha appreciates your unintended compliment.

Sasha's timing was off. If the Olympics had been in 2004 (better yet, in the fall of 2003), Sasha would have been the gold medal favorite.

She won three Grand Prix events with scortes of 197.35 (Skate America), 197.60 (Skate Canada), and 197.19 (Trophee Lalique) How's that for consistency?

The only thing that stopped a Sasha sweep that season were unexpectedly amazing skates by Fumie Suguri at the GP final, Michelle Kwan at U.S. nationals, and Shizuka Arakawa at Worlds.

 

[herios]

Lalique) How's that for consistency?

The only thing that stopped a Sasha sweep that season were unexpectedly amazing skates by Fumie Suguri at the GP final, Michelle Kwan at U.S. nationals, and Shizuka Arakawa at Worlds.

In other words, exactly at the most important competitions, others layed it down when counted the most and she didnt
You know how this is called? "Rising to the occassion". That what makes someone a champion and that is where Sasha failed!

 

[Mathman]

^ But you can say the same thing in a way that doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, just by leaving out the "failed" part.

Arakawa gave the performance of her life at 2004 worlds, markedly better than her Olympic gold medal performance, which was only "good enough." Hooray for Shizuka, bad luck for all the others, including not only Sasha but also great champions Michelle Kwan, Miki Ando, Carolina Kostner, Fumie Suguri, Joannie Rochette and Irina Slutskaya.

As for Michelle, her Tosca at 2004 U.S Nationals was, in my opinion, the last of Michelle's many, many utterly jaw-dropping performances. There was really nothing Sasha or anyone else could do.

 

[attyfan]

...
As for Michelle, her Tosca at 2004 U.S Nationals was, in my opinion, the last of Michelle's many, many utterly jaw-dropping performances. There was really nothing Sasha or anyone else could do.

I thought Michelle's final round (FS) at 2004 Worlds was pretty jaw-dropping, especially considering the streaker. That Shizuka had the skate of her life (that deservedly won the FS portion) should not detract from MK's performance.

 

[Particle Man]

In other words, exactly at the most important competitions, others layed it down when counted the most and she didnt
You know how this is called? "Rising to the occassion". That what makes someone a champion and that is where Sasha failed!

And Sasha haters like you fail by having no perspective, dwelling only on the negatives of one of our best skaters and not giving her credit for being better than anyone we have out there right now.

 

[Mathman]

I thought Michelle's final round (FS) at 2004 Worlds was pretty jaw-dropping, especially considering the streaker. That Shizuka had the skate of her life (that deservedly won the FS portion) should not detract from MK's performance.

True, true. But the Nationals performance...

Now if you want to mention the Feeling Begins short program at that worlds...the program that was so exquisite it forced the ISU to change the rules for the next season to let the SP go a few seconds longer...

 

[herios]

And Sasha haters like you fail by having no perspective, dwelling only on the negatives of one of our best skaters and not giving her credit for being better than anyone we have out there right now.

You are assuming things which are not true, I don't hate her. I just assess what she ...ok, I will not repeat "failed", saying rather "she didn't materialize on". I hope this doesn't hurt your feelings!
Somehow you have to recognize that she could've done a lot better in her career and that is what keeps her thinking of coming back.
And you know, I would be doing this
if she would come back and win US Nationals!

 

[Particle Man]

OK, but the point is she was always judged to a higher standard than most. Kwan never got OGM, is she a failure too? Sasha and anyone else is still human. Kwan doesn't need OGM to be considered a legend and IMO neither does Sasha.

I would only condemn Sasha for one failure in her career, and that is leaving competition for so long and waiting until '09 to really consider returning. If she needed a year off after '06, that's fine. Even if she needed 2 years ... ok, I guess. I just really have a hard time forgiving her for staying away this long. Even if she comes back, even if she does well, it will never be as well as she could have done if she had at least competed in 08/09. She had every reason to work hard and pursue her real dream and true talent which is being on the ice in competition. This Olympic cycle was her last real chance. Instead she procrastinated, played around with Stars on Ice and bit parts as an actress, and robbed herself and everyone else of seeing her make one last full-fledged attempt at the big prize. Win or lose, the sport needed her to be there, and more importantly she needed to be there for her own peace of mind. Champions give it their best and keep trying, no matter what. I think someday she'll look back and realize that.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Sasha's timing was off. If the Olympics had been in 2004 (better yet, in the fall of 2003), Sasha would have been the gold medal favorite.

not being the favorite was not her problem. She certainly was a favorite, with Slutskya for the olympic gold in 2006. Slutskya had an edge, being reigning world champ and the ability to a 3/3, but she had been been as "on" as the year year before. We all know what sasha's problem was, but there is nothing to say that she would not have fallen if she had been the clear fav.

 

[herios]

OK, but the point is she was always judged to a higher standard than most. Kwan never got OGM, is she a failure too? Sasha and anyone else is still human. Kwan doesn't need OGM to be considered a legend and IMO neither does Sasha.

You see, neither need an actual OGM, true, very few will be joining that elite group, however Michelle has 5 world titles and she has none. And this is what I consider Sasha was considered capable of for good reason and she couldn't pull it off. And Michelle cannot be considered the only obstacle in front of her, but Arakawa, then Slutskaya prevented her (these two were hard indeed to conquer, because Arakawa indeed skated out of her skin and Slutskaya won it with her heart), but to see Kimmie Meissner doing it and Sasha crumbling in 2006, was probably for her the most painfull of all.

 

[Particle Man]

Lack of a world gold is a stain on her record, but who would you honestly consider more of a legend - Sasha or Kimmie? :sheesh:

Was she capable, yes... but there are lots of reasons she never got one. Not making excuses, just saying some reasons were under her control, some weren't. In her book she writes about one time (I am pretty sure it was the day before one of her Worlds long programs) when she suddenly decided to go out jogging for a long time, killed her legs and could barely skate her LP the next day. What can you even say to something like that? Talk about a boneheaded move. Was it subconscious self-sabotage? I'm not enough a psychologist to figure THAT out.

Personally I think Sasha could have benefited from a psychologist as much as a jump trainer. Not saying that in a mean way. But following her over the years, I think she had a habit of psyching herself out. I was looking forward to seeing if more life experiences and maturity could have changed that. But coming back at the last minute I fear she will doubt herself. Add that into the other potential problems and it's hard for me to be very hopeful, at least on the world stage.

I really hope she isn't reading this.

 

[dorispulaski]

True, true. But the Nationals performance...

Now if you want to mention the Feeling Begins short program at that worlds...the program that was so exquisite it forced the ISU to change the rules for the next season to let the SP go a few seconds longer...

Plus we all got to see just a little more skating because of it!