Senior Ladies Need To Up The Age Requirement

[Mishaminion]

No, Alyona was still superior to Alina despite the judging. Just the same as Anna and Sasha have scored 160+ themselves. Alyona might have got even higher scores too at another competition

Lol, the conspiracy changes fit the outcomes, it really does

 

[Baron Vladimir]

No, Alyona was still superior to Alina despite the judging. Just the same as Anna and Sasha have scored 160+ themselves. Alyona might have got even higher scores too at another competition

Lol, the conspiracy changes fit the outcomes, it really does

I didn't use the word conspiracy at all. I'm just saying that TECH judges also have their preferencies, and we are able to track them, especially with Mr. Prins because he was giving his other ideas about it, publicly. For example, we were also able to track Vanessa Gusmeroli way of judging, and i can conclude for you she is more on a lentient side (as Shin Amano was on a strictier side). So, the only logical conclusion is that Mr. Prins was the one who iniciated all those calls. I'm not saying he was necesseraly wrong, but without him in the pannel, i'm sure Alina and Kaori would score at least 5 points more. Would that change the final outcome, probably not. But 'regularity' of the final placements is not what i'm interested in to debate at all, because i really found all the placements 'regular' (knowing they are made by some exact pannel of judges). And I really don't see what's the problem in commenting on judges way of judging, especially if you can support those comments with informations you already have.

 

[Mishaminion]

I didn't use the word conspiracy at all. I'm just saying that TECH judges also have their preferencies, and we are able to track them, especially with Mr. Prins because he was giving his other ideas about it, publicly. For example, we were also able to track Vanessa Gusmeroli way of judging, and i can conclude for you she is more on a lentient side (as Shin Amano was on a strictier side). So, the only logical conclusion is that Mr. Prins was the one who iniciated all those calls. I'm not saying he was necesseraly wrong, but without him in the pannel, i'm sure Alina and Kaori would score at least 5 points more. Would that change the final outcome, probably not. But 'regularity' of the final placements is not what i'm interested in to debate at all, because i really found all the results regular (knowing that are made by some exact pannel of judges). And I really don't see what's the problem in commenting on judges way of judging, especially if you can support those comments with informations you already have.

I do not agree with the assumption that this guy's other ideas influence his job as a tech controller. We do not know that.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I do not agree with the assumption that this guy's other ideas influence his job as a tech controller. We do not know that.

Well, he was the one who wanted to up the age requirement after Olympics, that's why he is a subject of my comments on this topic after all. And every one of us is in some way influenced by our own preconceptions, that's why there is not just one judge giving the evaluation of the skaters... I'm not arguing how my opinion about him must be right, i'm just trying to find a logic in his way of judging, and that's all. Because calling Kaori's constantly best judged jump as UR both time, and Alina's never called lutz jump as e, is really not logical to me... topic:

 

[el henry]

I do not agree with the assumption that this guy's other ideas influence his job as a tech controller. We do not know that.

Agreed.

Whether a particular fan, or a particular group of fans, disagree with the tech controllers’ call, does not make the tech controllers’ call “illogical”.

Whether the skater has been scored differently in different programs is irrelevant. It means the skater was scored differently. In fact I would hope and pray that each tech panel scores what they see on the ice *that comp*. It is the only fair way to do it.

Certainly fans will agree or disagree with calls. Maybe the fans are right, maybe the tech panel is right.

But as has been gone over ad infinitum nothing, zip, rien, nada, nadie, to do with proposals that Mr. Prins has sponsored. But only to do with what the tech panel saw on the ice.

 

[Mishaminion]

Well, he was the one who wanted to up the age requirement after Olympics, that's why he is a subject of my comments on this topic after all. And every one of us is in some way influenced by our own preconceptions, that's why there is not just one judge giving the evaluation of the skaters... I'm not arguing how my opinion about him must be right, i'm just trying to find a logic in his way of judging, and that's all. Because calling Kaori's constantly best judged jump as UR both time, and Alina's never called lutz jump as e, is really not logical to me... topic:

Just because Kaori usually jumps great loops, does not mean she always does. She's only human, just like the judges/tech panel.

Just because Alina hasn't had Lutz edge calls before doesn't mean she can't ever have an edge issue.

We know there are skaters whose edges/URs were ignored and then suddenly they were getting dinged. I won't name any names, I'm sure people know anyway.

Finally, just because Mr. Prins has a certain opinion about the age limit, doesn't mean he can't judge tech objectively. His proposal was to raise the age limit to 17, for the 20/21 season.
Alina Zagitova is already 17.
Alena Kostornaia will be 17 next season, thus age eligible by the rule change he supports.
Kaori Sakamoto is 19.

 

[skylark]

Lol you literally just proved their point though. Your reasons for wanting the age limit changed should have nothing to do with how much you like the specific skaters! So yes, obviously people will have different reactions to Kostornaia, Shcherbakova, and Trusova. But people are complaining because they feel that a lot of people want to change the age limit because they don't like Trusova's skating, and you're kind of proving their point by saying that people having differing responses to their skating is the reason for their silence - yes thats the point! They are all the same age, so if you want to change the age limit, your reason should be something that pertains to all three of them.

And yes, I'm aware that some people have stated other reasons for wanting to change limit.

Oh. You misunderstood me completely. I wasn't advocating a new age limit, nor arguing against it. Merely responding to words in another person's post. So no, I didn't prove their point.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Just because Kaori usually jumps great loops, does not mean she always does. She's only human, just like the judges/tech panel.

Just because Alina hasn't had Lutz edge calls before doesn't mean she can't ever have an edge issue.

Of course... And because 20 different tech judges never called Kaori's loop or Alina's lutz and that one judge did in one competition (together with much more calls comparing to the other grand prix competitions this year), of course his way of judging will be a subject of discussion

 

[Mishaminion]

Of course... And because 20 different tech judges never called Kaori's loop or Alina's lutz and that one judge did in one competition (together with much more calls comparing to the other grand prix competitions this year), of course his way of judging will be a subject of discussion

It was very strict.

The URs and the edge issues WERE there.

Whether you like it or not.

That they weren't called before or that those jumps are usually fine means nothing.

Figure skaters are not perfect, just as the judges/tech controllers are not perfect.

You don't seem to understand the point. Kaori had several visible URs and Alina's Lutz edge has deteriorated, even if that wasn't the case previously why shouldn't it be called when it is?

 

[Baron Vladimir]

You don't seem to understand the point. Kaori had several visible URs and Alina's Lutz edge has deteriorated, even if that wasn't the case previously why shouldn't it be called when it is?

That's exactly the problem. You can't claim how Alina's lutz and Kaori's loop technique deteriorated, when different set of judges less than month ago judged those jumps differently. If Alina's one lutz edge was reviewed as Kaori one loop and they got different calls for it, it would be fine. But that judge decided to review and call all their lutzes and loops, which is a big disagreement from other tech judges who judged their technique just mounth ago. To say 'That they weren't called before or that those jumps are usually fine means nothing', is not that logical from skaters point of view when one judge is giving them complitely different feedback from all the other judges before. Maybe if you look at it from the skaters point of you, you will get what i'm trying to say.

 

[gkelly]

That's exactly the problem. You can't claim how Alina's lutz and Kaori's loop technique deteriorated, when different set of judges less than month ago judged those jumps differently.

A jump performed in October is not the exact same jump as one performed in November.

A jump performed at 10:02 PM is not the exact same jump as one performed at 10:04 PM.

They have the same takeoff and number of revolutions and therefore have the same name. They may (or may not) be performed with the same approach and timing in the same part of the ice with the same viewing angle to the tech panel and replay camera.

But the execution is not identical every time the same skater does the same type of jump.

 

[Mishaminion]

That's exactly the problem. You can't claim how Alina's lutz and Kaori's loop technique deteriorated, when different set of judges less than month ago judged those jumps differently. If Alina's one lutz edge was reviewed as Kaori one loop and they got different calls for it, it would be fine. But that judge decided to review and call all their lutzes and loops, which is a big disagreement from other tech judges who judged their technique just mounth ago. To say 'That they weren't called before or that those jumps are usually fine means nothing', is not that logical from skaters point of view when one judge is giving them complitely different feedback from all the other judges before. Maybe if you look at it from the skaters point of you, you will get what i'm trying to say.

I dont need to.

I looked at the jumps that were called and the loops were under and Alina did have edge issues.

And they were called for it.

The real problem is judging consistency not whether the issues happened.

It seems to be a trend that skaters don't have any issues called over a long period of time and then suddenly they start getting dinged for them in a number of competitions. For example Medvedeva's lutz or Miyahara's URs...they are called far more often now but still not always.

They were there though, whether called or not

 

[Baron Vladimir]

The real problem is judging consistency not whether the issues happened.

Oh, now you get it. If ISU wanted harsher judging, they should apply that type of judging across all the competitions equally. With different type of judging at different competitions, skaters can't get the right information what they need to work on to became better skaters, which is their biggest motivation to be still involved in skating after all.
And to answer to gkelly, your statement is absolutely true. But I found a really obvious information in the judging sheet of one exact event, the tech judge was giving. Even that information is just a 'coincidence', it's a coincidence i've never seen before, which is for me more than adequate reason to speak about it (and which is completely topic: and should be probably discussed in separate tread, so i will end my thoughts about it here)

 

[Mishaminion]

Oh, now you get it. If ISU wanted harsher judging, they should apply that type of judging across all the competitions equally. With different type of judging at different competitions, skaters can't get the right information what they need to work on to became better skaters, which is their biggest motivation to be still involved in skating after all.
And to answer to gkelly, your statement is absolutely true. But I found a really obvious information in the judging sheet of one exact event. Even if it is just a 'coincidence', it's a coincidence i've never seen before, which is for me more than adequate reason to speak about it (and which is completely topic: and should be probably discussed in separate tread, so i will end my thoughts about it here)

So create a thread and show us this information

 

[Baron Vladimir]

So create a thread and show us this information

Are you maybe slightly drunk again, or you really find my topics that interesting?

 

[Mishaminion]

Are you maybe slightly drunk again, or you really find my topics that interesting?

I genuinely find them interesting!
Even though I disagree with you on a lot of things

No, I'm not drunk. That is a rarity, I do not handle alcohol well.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

I think that the ISU Congress or whatever is going to talk about raising the age limit when congress meets in summer of 2020, right?

I don’t think a new age limit for ladies will even get to be voted on. I think it’ll get shut down. And the sport will continue to go in this direction, with prepubescent girls winning for one or two seasons before the next crop of prepubescent girls takes their place.

 

[Mishaminion]

I think that the ISU Congress or whatever is going to talk about raising the age limit when congress meets in summer of 2020, right?

I don’t think a new age limit for ladies will even get to be voted on. I think it’ll get shut down. And the sport will continue to go in this direction, with prepubescent girls winning for one or two seasons before the next crop of prepubescent girls takes their place.

It has been more or less the norm for a long time now, the older skaters on podiums being the minority.

Even in the 90s we had Michelle Kwan and Tara Lipinkski winning major titles at 15.

 

[DSQ]

It has been more or less the norm for a long time now, the older skaters on podiums being the minority.

Even in the 90s we had Michelle Kwan and Tara Lipinkski winning major titles at 15.

Don’t forget Witt, she was very young. Ajax has always been a young sport but it has become more pronounced now.

Before while skaters have always been successful at a very young age most were able to remain competitive long into their 20’s. Now not only are skaters winning very young but they’re retiring very young also. I think that is concerning however it’s important to to have any knee jerk reactions.

 

[Elucidus]

I don’t think a new age limit for ladies will even get to be voted on. I think it’ll get shut down. And the sport will continue to go in this direction, with prepubescent girls winning for one or two seasons before the next crop of prepubescent girls takes their place.

You are wrong, I am afraid.
https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019...a-figure-skating-nationals-championships/amp/

“The idea of raising the age limit is one possible solution and one of the main subjects being discussed at present, even among the top coaches,” said Fabio Bianchetti of Italy, chairman of the ISU singles and pairs technical committee. “The matter will very probably be considered at the next ISU Congress (summer 2020.)”

Bianchetti thought the idea of limiting the number and types of quads women can do in the free skate “has merit” as a form of preventive medicine.

“There is no doubt that the health of all these ‘kids’ must be taken into serious consideration,” Bianchetti said.

Pretty sexist and discriminating statements, don't you think?

“We need to be discussing whether it is impossible with the rules we are making to have our athletes healthy not only during their career but the rest of their lives. It’s not worth it to risk your physical and mental health for some external success that fades away very soon.”

:shocked:
And extremely hypocritical to boot. They don't even notice contradictions in their own narrative. Article beginning with lamenting how short Zagitova career was and how awful that she was compelled to end prematurely due to competition with young jumping phenoms (and thus saving her own health from competitive sport strain!) ending with health concerns about kids and laments that early success is something bad Yes, you heard it right - it's in the same sentence

And just as a strawberry on a cake - article ends with this

Alina Zagitova will be an Olympic champion forever.

She may have chosen just the right moment to back away and assure enjoying that forever status in good health.

So, what they wanted to say - is it good that she ended career healthy and early - or is it bad? It's seems that they don't know themselves - but they do know what "preventing" (preventing what?) measures should be taken all right. It's just that with justification they have some issues - but who cares about such tiny details, right? :sarcasm: