Senior Ladies Need To Up The Age Requirement

[Mishaminion]

I think the answer to this debate is that no matter what happens you can't please everyone and some will never ever be happy or satisfied with it.
Us humans (generally not necessarily ALL) like to complain, we like to have our own different opinions and different likes. We all in some way or another would like to think that we will get to see what we each personally prefer.
On both sides of the debate, same principle.
It is human nature, I think we all do it at some point, whether we admit to it or not.

 

[moriel]

I feel that this is a proper moment to, once more, promote my idea of a cut based on cup size.

It would clearly satisfy all the "grown up ladies" fans, and also add lots of potential for entretainment, with competitors being measured right before the competitions and so on.

 

[Arbitrary]

Yeah.
As was proposed more than once the smart people should be forbidden to think as the thinking itself insults those less smart.

Remind to all Zagitova won Olympics by cleverly using the ISU rules. ISU had to change the rules.
Now Trusova uses the same trick in both her programs (the highest BV element is backlogged).
We may be pretty sure any regulation rule may and will be used.

 

[kenboy123]

NOTE: haven't read the whole thread...

I don't think senior ladies needs to be aged up, but I think the judging system needs an overhaul again...figure skating is supposed to be artistic, but now these girls (i'm not even going to call them ladies) are trying to rack up so many points that even with out of this world artistry and sky high component scores can't beat "technique"...it's supposed to be both which means that you are supposed to be able to rack up just any many points with artistry and component scores as technique...btw, i don't' think being able to do a quad equals technique a lot of the time, the quality of them aren't good..yet they still get a huge amount of points for doing a bad one which I don't think is right...

 

[Mishaminion]

Yeah.
As was proposed more than once the smart people should be forbidden to think as the thinking itself insults those less smart.

Remind to all Zagitova won Olympics by cleverly using the ISU rules. ISU had to change the rules.
Now Trusova uses the same trick in both her programs (the highest BV element is backlogged).
We may be pretty sure any regulation rule may and will be used.

They changed the rules because people complained that the back loading had gone too far, had nobody minded it wouldn't have happened. Zagitova deserved to win, won by the rules and in fact might have won without back loading anyway...her technical difficulty was still higher than Medvedeva's.

Trusova competes within the rules, her highest BV element is in the second half which there is nothing wrong with and she's not the only one who does it. There is a bonus for doing it, wgt shouldn't skaters do it when the rules state you can and will be rewarded for it?
Do we now ban any second half jump bonus and allow skaters to put their jumps wherever, including frontloading them because they have zero reasons not to?

 

[skatergurl7]

NOTE: haven't read the whole thread...
I don't think senior ladies needs to be aged up, but I think the judging system needs an overhaul again...figure skating is supposed to be artistic, but now these girls (i'm not even going to call them ladies) are trying to rack up so many points that even with out of this world artistry and sky high component scores can't beat "technique"...it's supposed to be both which means that you are supposed to be able to rack up just any many points with artistry and component scores as technique...btw, i don't' think being able to do a quad equals technique a lot of the time, the quality of them aren't good..yet they still get a huge amount of points for doing a bad one which I don't think is right...

Figure skating is supposed to be a SPORT. If you want artistry only, go watch dance that isn’t in the Olympics for a reason

 

[kenboy123]

Figure skating is supposed to be a SPORT. If you want artistry only, go watch dance that isn’t in the Olympics for a reason

It's supposed to be BOTH....

 

[Mishaminion]

NOTE: haven't read the whole thread...

I don't think senior ladies needs to be aged up, but I think the judging system needs an overhaul again...figure skating is supposed to be artistic, but now these girls (i'm not even going to call them ladies) are trying to rack up so many points that even with out of this world artistry and sky high component scores can't beat "technique"...it's supposed to be both which means that you are supposed to be able to rack up just any many points with artistry and component scores as technique...btw, i don't' think being able to do a quad equals technique a lot of the time, the quality of them aren't good..yet they still get a huge amount of points for doing a bad one which I don't think is right...

Even a "bad" quad is always more difficult than a triple so of course it should be worth more.
Figure skating is a sport, the competitors are athletes. Artistry is only one aspect of skating, and the aim of score based sports is to "rack up points" that's how you win, that's always how it has been done.

 

[Mishaminion]

It's supposed to be BOTH....

It is. Who says you can't have quads and performance?

 

[sk8kirsty]

NOTE: haven't read the whole thread...

I don't think senior ladies needs to be aged up, but I think the judging system needs an overhaul again...figure skating is supposed to be artistic, but now these girls (i'm not even going to call them ladies) are trying to rack up so many points that even with out of this world artistry and sky high component scores can't beat "technique"...it's supposed to be both which means that you are supposed to be able to rack up just any many points with artistry and component scores as technique...btw, i don't' think being able to do a quad equals technique a lot of the time, the quality of them aren't good..yet they still get a huge amount of points for doing a bad one which I don't think is right...

I don't think the quads are bad, I think that even to be able to rotate a quad should give you a lot of points. I do think that the artistry should matter a bit more yes, but at the end of the day, it is a sport and technique is very important

 

[kenboy123]

Even a "bad" quad is always more difficult than a triple so of course it should be worth more.
Figure skating is a sport, the competitors are athletes. Artistry is only one aspect of skating, and the aim of score based sports is to "rack up points" that's how you win, that's always how it has been done.

So, you think someone should be rewarded for trying to do something and failing vs someone else who does a slightly less "hard" thing, but still hard and but does it perfectly...

i don't agree with that...

Artistry is supposed to be 50% with technique being the other half...so, the amount of points someone is able to score with both should be equal or as equal as possible...right now, it's nowhere near close enough...

 

[lesnar001]

Yeah.
As was proposed more than once the smart people should be forbidden to think as the thinking itself insults those less smart.

Remind to all Zagitova won Olympics by cleverly using the ISU rules. ISU had to change the rules.
Now Trusova uses the same trick in both her programs (the highest BV element is backlogged).
We may be pretty sure any regulation rule may and will be used.

Is it also a "trick" when Rika & Bradie put their highest BV element in the bonus section of the LP?

 

[kenboy123]

I know this has already been mentioned, but i support the idea of giving medals for technique, artistry and overall...maybe that will fix the problem...

 

[Arbitrary]

They changed the rules because people complained that the back loading had gone too far,...

Exactly what I mean: using. "Too far" means the rules should be obeyed in a way not ruled but presumed.
Anyone can overrule the presumption and use the rules technically, like a lawyer willing to save the condemned murderer from the DR. The Mr. Devil hides in little details.

Second fragment: "people complained". Any ruling body listens to the crowd complains. 1% of her time not more. Money does rule but people complains are usually a factor of opinion & influence only when the largest markets (time + screen time + tickets + merchandise = money) is enough to influence.

I rememeber the 1988 Olympics ice-hockey tournament. The USSR won again, this time even before the last game player, and IOC + IIHF had to decide what to do.
The resulting rule change was to introduce play-offs. Play-offs = randomization of the final winner.
- Unfortunately the 1992 WOG had been won by the xUSSR again.
+ Fortunately the USSR became xUSSR for everyone's pleasure. So Russia had to wait 26 years to win again digging out from the play-offs.

It's not enough to introduce rule change. It must be supported by high forces, big wigs of this particular sport. Who must consider pluses and minuses for themselves, FOA.

The last major rule change happened in the Ice Dances (the twizzels revolution).
By the way it totally ruined and voided the Russian ID school which was the Number One for decades. It may be considered a direct attack against RusFed (now at least one OGM is sure non-Russian) but "I want to believe" in the objectivity.
Too many rule changes had been introduced and accepted by various International sport associations right after Russia gained few OGMs in a row.

Nothing personal...

 

[Fluture]

Is it also a "trick" when Rika & Bradie put their highest BV element in the bonus section of the LP?

Yes. And a very clever one at that. Just like Alina was clever at the Olympics. Skaters want to win so they‘re going to use “tricks“ like that to make sure they earn a lot of points. It’s natural and smart and if you’re able to do it and the rules allow it: go for it. It‘s up to the ISU to respond when they feel things get out of hand/become unbalanced. It will be interesting to see what they‘ll do now.

I‘m one of those who‘s not a fan of quads and prefers mature skating so I would be in favor of raising the age limit and/or limiting quads. But some of the comments in here are truly awful and one of the reason why I haven‘t responded as of now. People attacking these young girls for what they can do, even going as far as saying they haven‘t worked hard or spent any time in skating... not cool. These athletes deserve respect for what they do, no matter their age! If we want to change the rules, fine. But never attack the skaters personally for the problems we have with the system. Just my two cents and now I‘m out of here again. This thread is...

 

[Good Vibes Only]

Once I saw the title of this thread I thought “oh no”....I was right to think that

 

[el henry]

I don’t care what skaters or coaches think, I care what medical professionals think. Medical professionals are responsible for advancing concussion protocols and other safety standards.

I don’t know if the current age limit should be raised because we have not had enough health studies, but I would lean towards it while waiting for them. If someone has such studies could you please provide them, I would be very interested.

In the meantime, I personally do not find these arguments persuasive:

1. It’s a sport (huh? )

2. Skaters will practice it anyway (so, I can’t be responsible if someone ignores the rules )

3. Young skaters are pushing the sport forward, with jumps (I reject that jumps are the only way to “push the sport forward”. In any event, if they are, let them push the sport forward at 16)

4. Watch ice dance or exhibitions (huh? No, I like to watch men’s singles, thank you very much for your advice )

5. You are just prejudiced against skater X. (Huh? Show me where I have not consistently supported this rule for all skaters from all countries)

I will say, if I wanted to get really drunk, I would play bingo with those five arguments. Anytime I saw them, I would take a shot. An extra shot for laughing emojis, as though someone was scoring some funny point

My liver would not survive. And I am sure someone could do the same for my arguments,

But I have seen nothing that changes anyone’s mind.

 

[moriel]

NOTE: haven't read the whole thread...

I don't think senior ladies needs to be aged up, but I think the judging system needs an overhaul again...figure skating is supposed to be artistic, but now these girls (i'm not even going to call them ladies) are trying to rack up so many points that even with out of this world artistry and sky high component scores can't beat "technique"...it's supposed to be both which means that you are supposed to be able to rack up just any many points with artistry and component scores as technique...btw, i don't' think being able to do a quad equals technique a lot of the time, the quality of them aren't good..yet they still get a huge amount of points for doing a bad one which I don't think is right...

Who said figure skating is supposed to be artistic?

For me, it is supposed to be a sport, and ones who disagree can go watch shows.

 

[[email protected]]

I know this has already been mentioned, but i support the idea of giving medals for technique, artistry and overall...maybe that will fix the problem...

There is dance category already. I skated for several years myself and I watch closely figure skating since 2014. Yet, I have very little clue how they give levels and GOE in dance outside twizzles. So for me tech mark in dance belongs to some sect of the few. However, I can distinguish between true artistry and average artistry among dance pairs. I enjoy watching V/M, P/C. This season S/K's short was a treat for the eye. And well, with some exceptions, where I personally suspect politics and reputation judging my perception of the level of artistry usually correlates with placements.

But I don't want bringing dance to singles competition. There is already step sequence where uneducated viewer will never understand why level 2 to one skater and level 4 to the other. That's enough. And this "artistic" approach will only make things worse. For some people Scherbakova is unique in her feeling the music and interpreting its emotions on the ice. For others she has "rough, juniorish skating". I am with the first group here. But I also don't understand people who praise some skaters who I have hard time to watch. No, no "artistic judging" in singles, please. Current pcs is enough. May be it's just the time to apply the men's coefficient.
But again, it's not about favoring artistry. Sasha has 33 pcs, Rika has 35. Sasha will have 41 and Rika will have 44. Well, 1 point difference will change little in the final placements (although it might in specific situations). I would do it only to make ladies and men's scores comparable. Like to understand that Sasha scored "men's" 266 here which would mean her coming second after Yuzuru... and with men's rules she would score above 280 bringing 2 quads to the short program.

 

[moriel]

1. It’s a sport (huh? )
Like it or no, figure skating is, above all, a sport. Which means it is evaluated in terms of the Olympic motto, "faster, higher, stronger", and not "who is the pretties one". The artistry is quite commonly brought as argument to "raise the age limit", so it is surprising people don't see why this is questioned.

2. Skaters will practice it anyway (so, I can’t be responsible if someone ignores the rules )
SO, wait. The rule is "only 17+ can skate in seniors" or any other age cap. There is literally no rule forbidding skaters from training quads or doing them in competition before they reach seniors. Would you be so kind to explain specifically what rules protect juniors from training quads? Why they would suddenly not train them just like Trusova, Valieva, Liu didnt train them as juniors wink wink

3. Young skaters are pushing the sport forward, with jumps (I reject that jumps are the only way to “push the sport forward”. In any event, if they are, let them push the sport forward at 16)
This is one of those "i made it up and then i got offended". Noone here, except fr you, is stating that the jumps are the ONLY way to push the sport forward.
Now, if you believe that jumps are NOT pushing the SPORT forward, please do explain.

4. Watch ice dance or exhibitions (huh? No, I like to watch men’s singles, thank you very much for your advice )
Again, most people who argue for an age limit state that they dont want to see jumps, they want to see artistry. Watching ice dance or shows sounds like a sensible suggestion for those people, as there will be much more artistry in ice dance than in singles, always.

5. You are just prejudiced against skater X. (Huh? Show me where I have not consistently supported this rule for all skaters from all countries)
Again, maybe this is not your case personally, but quite a few people who defend age increase are quite prejudiced, and support are increase basically because it is not their favourites winning. Example: Kihira has same age as Zagitova. Did we hear people complaining that age should be raised because Kihira is damaging her health jumping triple axes left and right? Nope



But of course, its easier to play drinking games than to actually present reasons.