Shawn Sawyer and his place in men's figure skating history

[siberia82]

I could be wrong about this, but I do think Shawn Sawyer is the only male skater in recent history who has won a free skate at an international competition without a quad attempt, a fully rotated 3-Axel OR even a 2nd 3-lutz! How COOL is that??? Pulling off a Jeff Buttle is already quite special, but pulling off a Shawn Sawyer is TRULY unique!!!

For those of you who are figure skating history buffs, when was the last time a man won a long program on the world scene with Shawn's SC jump content? I'm DYING to know!

 

[Wrlmy]

He might also be the only skater to win lp and still finish 5th.

 

[Ladskater]

I could be wrong about this, but I do think Shawn Sawyer is the only male skater in recent history who has won a free skate at an international competition without a quad attempt, a fully rotated 3-Axel OR even a 2nd 3-lutz! How COOL is that??? Pulling off a Jeff Buttle is already quite special, but pulling off a Shawn Sawyer is TRULY unique!!!

For those of you who are figure skating history buffs, when was the last time a man won a long program on the world scene with Shawn's SC jump content? I'm DYING to know!

Yes, Shawn is an awesome artistic skater. I think Toller Cranston - who incidentally more or less discovered Shawn - won the Free Skating portion of the Worlds a couple of times, and the 1976 Olympics - but was marked down in the figures portion so had to settle for the bronze.

Here is some info on Toller:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toller_Cranston

I am a real Shawn Sawyer fan. He skates much like Toller and Jeff - from the heart.

Great question.

 

[Bennett]

I am totally happy for him and he should be really proud that all of his elements except for the 3A<'s in SP and LP and 2Lz in his SP got plus GOE. He also got level 4 on all of his spins and level 3 on three of his steps in SP and LP!

I totally understand there is no "if," "would have," and "might have" in competitions. But please forgive me for saying if...., , he had not tried 3As, he would have been at least on the podium or might have even gotten the silver. The score was pretty close despite that he lost about 5 points on his GOE for his downgraded 3As in SP and LP. He was capble of getting +1.0 on his regular 2A as he did in his LP. So he could have scored 7 points higher to make up the about 6 point difference with Bradley.

Thank you for reading my mental excercise, but my point is that he seems capable of getting on the podium in future. I would imagine that this success would help him boost his confidence and motivation in this pre-Olympic season as well.

 

[fiercemao]

His long program is one of my favorites. Mind-boggling entrances into triple jumps. Having said that, I doubt he can advance further internationally with no 3A and only one 3lutz in the program.

Patrick Chan seems to be following his footsteps. Both are artistic skaters, but technically, sort of iffy. Does Chan also only have one lutz in lp?

 

[Bennett]

His long program is one of my favorites. Mind-boggling entrances into triple jumps. Having said that, I doubt he can advance further internationally with no 3A and only one 3lutz in the program.

Patrick Chan seems to be following his footsteps. Both are artistic skaters, but technically, sort of iffy. Does Chan also only have one lutz in lp?

Hope Patrick gets his 3A consistent! He had two lutzs in LP, but singled one of them. But the one he landed received +1.4 GOE (Shawn also received plus 1.0 on his lutz that he landed).

 

[siberia82]

He might also be the only skater to win lp and still finish 5th.

Someone on FSU pointed out that Poykio won the FS at 04 Skate America and placed 5th overall.

Although no one seems 100% certain since it's relatively difficult to find older figure skating footage, a poster did suggest that the 1983 Worlds and the 1984 Skate Canada International are the most likely candidiates for the last time a man won a free skate with Shawn's SC jump content. Obviously I can't expect her to remember exactly the jump layout of those two long programs , but I guess it's safe to say that it's been about a quarter of a century!

I think we can all be fairly certain that this will probably NEVER happen again in men's figure skating, so I feel very fortunate to have been part of this VERY unusual fluke occurence in men's figure skating history.

 

[Spun Silver]

What also makes it so interesting, but is not so easy to put in Guinness World Records, is that his win was greeted with universal acclaim.

Normally when somebody wins with low technical content there is an outcry. But it seems that everybody recognized how special his skate and program were despite the low jump value. Now THAT is amazing.

 

[hongligl]

Could he be the most flexible male skater in history? That spiral position is so much better than the majority of female skaters, isn't it?

 

[siberia82]

Two other people on FSU have confirmed that the last time a male skater won the free skate at a major event with nothing more difficult than a single 3-lutz in his jump arsenal was Scott Hamilton at the 1983 Worlds. (I wasn't even 3 months old at the time!) GO SHAWN!!!!! What he achieved at SC was the figure skating equivalent of winning the lottery. I honestly believe he had a MUCH better chance of being struck by lightning!!!

I think Toller Cranston - who incidentally more or less discovered Shawn.

Kurt Browning mentioned on the SA commentary that his nickname for Shawn is "Tiny Toller" (which is very cute not only because Shawn has some of Toller's moves, but he IS short! )

Patrick Chan seems to be following his footsteps. Both are artistic skaters, but technically, sort of iffy.

Jeff Buttle got the ball rolling with his quadless world championship title, and both Chan and Sawyer added fuel to the fire at SC by winning the gold medal and the free skate respectively. It seems that artistically gifted, but quadless (and sometimes 3-Axel-less!) Canadian men are hijacking the sport!

Btw, does anyone know when was the last time a male skater won an international competition without a quad attempt or a clean 3-Axel (albeit fully rotated)? I'm just curious about Patrick's place in history. No one has yet replied to me on FSU (but maybe that's because I ask too many obscure questions ).

And before anyone gets snarky and accuse our guys of pushing figure skating "backwards" in terms of jumps, Canada does own the quad again thanks to Kevin "Quad Machine" Reynolds.

What also makes it so interesting, but is not so easy to put in Guinness World Records, is that his win was greeted with universal acclaim.

Normally when somebody wins with low technical content there is an outcry. But it seems that everybody recognized how special his skate and program were despite the low jump value. Now THAT is amazing.

Brian Joubert hasn't complained yet (at least not that I know of) about SC, so I guess you're right!

Could he be the most flexible male skater in history? That spiral position is so much better than the majority of female skaters, isn't it?

Yeah, I think so. I know some women would die to be able to perform his moves as well as he does! Shawn's ludicrous flexibility for a men's singles skater should be mentioned in the Guiness Book of World Records. The way he can stretch his body is beyond comprehension ; he's practically a rubber band!

"Amadeus" is a masterpiece, and I think most of us agree that it's the most gorgeous program we've seen of any discipline during 2008/2009 season. I wonder if in the future men's figure skating fans will remember it without the benefit of a World or Olympic medal attached to it.

 

[hongligl]

The problem of male skater without quad is that he has to rely on other people's meltdown to win a major competition and get the title. So personally I think it is not so smart to be too "motivated" , or should I say "demotivated" if that's a word, by Jeff's victory last year. If Patrick does not work on quad and his 3A, I would be really disapointed no matter how great his skating skill is. He could win but the win wouldn't be as exciting as when he wins with superb technical content.

Don't get me wrong, I love artistic skaters and skaters with beautiful deep edges and all the skating skills. But to win a major title that would not be enough if everybody else skates well to.

This appears off topic but I think the same applies to Shaw.

 

[siberia82]

The problem of male skater without quad is that he has to rely on other people's meltdown to win a major competition and get the title.

It's true that a skater like Shawn will never be in full control of his destiny without at least a clean 3-Axel. He can only succeed when enough of his rivals falter.

 

[Bennett]

Could he be the most flexible male skater in history? That spiral position is so much better than the majority of female skaters, isn't it?

ITA. Shawn not only is flexible, but also so fully streches his legs, including the back of his knees, which I think makes his lines more beautiful and impeccable than the majority of female skaters.

 

[siberia82]

I got into a minor debate with a few people on FSU who were quite critical of Shawn's "weak" athletic skills, and I thought I would share with you all my counterargument:

"Shawn won the SC free skate due to the strength of his LP TES (which was the highest of all the guys), not his PCS (which was only the 4th highest). Very Buttle-like circa 2008 Worlds. Shawn's SC LP TES was 0.71 points higher than Bradley's, a mere 0.72 less than Kozuka at SA and 1.65 more than Reynolds. So even without a quad attempt, a fully rotated 3-Axel OR a 2nd 3-lutz, Shawn was still the most "technical" skater for the LP at SC and scored the 2nd highest LP TES of the GP series at that point."

 

[Ladskater]

Ah Shawn!!!

I finally got to see Shawn's long program at Skate Canada. It's awesome! I can see why he won the free skating portion. Someone mentioned that the technical guys may be upset that Shawn won the day so to speak with his program - which was incidentlally choreographed by David Wilson. This program speaks volumes. It really showcases Shawn's wonderful flowing deep edges and amazing flexibility. Kudos to David Wilson once again for his brilliant choreography and ability to bring out the best in a skater.

Could Shawn be our next Jeff Buttle? Once again - who cares about the quad when there is such quality skating. Toller Cranston recognized Shawn's talent and featured him in one of his shows, I am sure Toller would agree with the judges if he had been there this last week to watch Shawn.

And no, I don't agree with the statement that a skater like Shawn depends on the melt down of other skaters because he lacks the quad. Shawn is in a class of his own. Don' t forget a program does not only consist of jumps.....

 

[Bennett]

Shawn won because of his GOE. In his LP, he got plus GOEs on all the elements but the URed 3A. All of his jumps but 3A got plus one or greater GOE, including 1.6 on 3Lo and 1.8 on 3S+2T+2Lo. Likewise, he got level 4 on all of his spins with high GOE. His TES was like 10 points higher than the base value, which means that he is technically superb in the elements that he did.
I hope that he will become a bit faster in his skating so that he can get better PCS and will increase the levels on his steps and hopefully land 3lz more consistently so that he can have two of them in the program instead of two 2As.

 

[siberia82]

And no, I don't agree with the statement that a skater like Shawn depends on the melt down of other skaters because he lacks the quad. Shawn is in a class of his own. Don' t forget a program does not only consist of jumps.....

I've studied Shawn's career quite thoroughly, and I'm afraid that he can only get ahead when his competitors mess up. He would've finished 3rd in the free skate at SC if Chan and Ponsero didn't stumble in their LPs.

I've already shared this on the Skate Canada thread, but I'll repeat it just in case anyone missed it:

"This is Shawn's story at almost every competition. Firstly, he screws up at least the 3-Axel, usually the 3-lutz as well, so he always has a bad start in the SP. He'll then make the similar mistakes in the LP, but he's a well-trained athlete and he stays on his feet for the rest of the performance. Depending on how the rest of the field does, he can move up quite nicely in the rankings.

The 2008 Nationals is a good example. In the SP, Shawn 2-footed (but fully rotated) his 3-Axel and singled his lutz, leaving him in 6th place. However, 3 out of the 5 guys ranked above him had meltdows in their LPs, and he was able to nab the bronze."

If Mabee, Chipeur and Andreev hadn't bombed their LPs, Shawn would've remained in 6th place over-all. Those are the cold, hard facts.

I hope that he will become a bit faster in his skating so that he can get better PCS and will increase the levels on his steps and hopefully land 3lz more consistently so that he can have two of them in the program instead of two 2As.

Yes, that is my biggest wish, as well! Who knows how far Shawn can go when those jumps are solidly under his belt!!! My only worry is his age; he'll turn 24 in January, and it's highly unusual for a men's singles skater to not have mastered them this late in the game. I'm not saying that it's impossible, but you have wonder why he has not been able to fix the Axel and the lutz much earlier. :think:

 

[Bennett]

Yes, that is my biggest wish, as well! Who knows how far Shawn can go when those jumps are solidly under his belt!!! My only worry is his age; he'll turn 24 in January, and it's highly unusual for a men's singles skater to not have mastered them this late in the game. I'm not saying that it's impossible, but you have wonder why he has not been able to fix the Axel and the lutz much earlier. :think:

I suppose that they are difficult even for many men, especially the Axel. The Axel has become even riskier to try after the rule changes so that I guess some ppl in Shawn's situation might avoid risking it. But I suppose that he would land the lutz much more often than the Axel, doesn't he?

 

[Spun Silver]

I suggest people posting in this thread take a look at the thread on The Lost Edge and post their reactions.

Given his high GOEs (thanks for pointing that out, Bennett) and low jump content, he sounds like a textbook example of what C. D. Rusch is trying to bring skating back to. But people in this thread are saying he MUST add a 3A and preferably a quad. Interesting.

 

[Bennett]

I suggest people posting in this thread take a look at the thread on The Lost Edge and post their reactions.

Given his high GOEs (thanks for pointing that out, Bennett) and low jump content, he sounds like a textbook example of what C. D. Rusch is trying to bring skating back to. But people in this thread are saying he MUST add a 3A and preferably a quad. Interesting.

Thanks for your link. But I wonder if Shawn and his team also believe that he must have a 3A given that he always seems to have it both in SP and LP despite that he is said to have never landed it cleanly at any comp.

It's true that Jeff had consistency problems, but at least he was able land them cleanly sometimes. Shawn has NEVER done a clean 3-Axel in competition (although I did see him land a couple of wobbly ones in the warm-up), and he misses his 3-lutz very often. He'll turn 24 in January, so it's worrisome that those 2 jumps remain quite elusive.

Shawn always goes for a 3-Axel and a 3-lutz in his SPs, but he never does more than 1 of each in his LPs (you'll notice that he doesn't do them in combination and must include two 2-Axels after he runs out of triple jumps.) This is how the story goes for him at almost every competition. Firstly, he screws up at least the 3-Axel, usually the 3-lutz as well, so he always has a bad start in the SP. He'll then make the similar mistakes in the LP, but he's a well-trained athlete and he stays on his feet for the rest of the performance. Depending on how the rest of the field does, he can move up quite nicely in the rankings.