Shibsib spat

[TontoK]

Does anyone think they will go to the olympics? These returns are a struggle for everyone it seems but Gullaume and Laurence. The Shib sibs, Sui and Han, Keegan are not finding it easy coming back.

Who can say about the Shibs. The US judge ranked them SECOND in the rhythm dance, which raised my eyebrows. As in "could the fix be in for Nationals?" I hope they don't make it. I like many other teams.

But in your list of "probably not going to make it" you forgot one whose chances are rising, IMO. Gabby Daleman is getting better and better. And the other Canadian women aren't.

 

[Mathman]

..."could the fix be in for Nationals?" I hope they don't make it. I like many other teams.

I don't get it.I don't get it, I don't get it. Are Mr. and Mrs, Shibutani (the parents) billionaires who can buy figure skating judges? Is Marina Zoueva such a powerful politician that she can call up the United States Department of Justice and put USFSA officials in jail if they don't tow the party line?

Am I just naive in the ways of the world?

 

[moonvine]

Good point.

I wonder if the reason why this became so focussed on Meagan is that she is also a broadcaster. (KMT is now as well, but I don't think she was then. And Jackie is not a traditional broadcaster). That these older commentators who had been covering the sport for decades didn't appreciate getting criticised by a fellow commentator, and in particular one that had not been in the game for long.

But, the point I was trying to make is that when you employ people to broadcast to the public, you expect them to behave professionally. Because they are representing you, and them not being professional can damage your reputation. You certainly do not expect them to get into a slanging match with other broadcasters. And that is what happened with both sides back then.

So, I stand by my conviction that all three of them should have been punished by their respective employers.

Until that incident, I had liked all three of them. Afterwards, I didn't like any of them.



Exactly.

Which brings us back to the Shibs. For the past couple of decades, we thought they were these wholesome brother and sister. I for one always really liked them. And I would never have imagined that they were actually like what we saw in that video.

To use your words, they put on a show for years, and we all were taken in by it. And we are only now seeing a glimpse of the real people.

It makes you wonder whether you can believe anything you see in this sport.

CaroLiza_fan

Not just in this sport. In life. You know how when a serial killer gets arrested all the neighbors can’t believe it and say what a nice guy he was (not that any of these skaters transgressions, whatever they may be, equate to being a serial killer).

Most of us have to wear masks at least part of the time. Especially if a person works for someone else. I have a friend who was fired for something she said on FB. Which is actually illegal since she was a government employee. Anyway that’s getting even further off the topic.

 

[moonvine]

Does anyone think they will go to the olympics? These returns are a struggle for everyone it seems but Gullaume and Laurence. The Shib sibs, Sui and Han, Keegan are not finding it easy coming back.

The Shib Sibs have had a single competition. Sui and Han just won a GP medal. Keegan has had one international competition. I think they can all come back. Can they all come back in time for the Olympics is a different story.

 

[moonvine]

I don't get it.I don't get it, I don't get it. Are Mr. and Mrs, Shibutani (the parents) billionaires who can buy figure skating judges? Is Marina Zoueva such a powerful politician that she can call up the United States Department of Justice and put USFSA officials in jail if they don't tow the party line?

Am I just naive in the ways of the world?

Possibly.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

I understand the disapproval of his actions but it's almost like some people in this conversation think he personally owes them an apology. This is between them and nothing to do with fans.

 

[Anna K.]

Thanks for posting.

I just watched their NHK free dance and this was exactly what I thought about.

It has all happened in my lifetime. It feels like just yesterday they were aspiring juniors. And now, they are two troubled adults in their early thirties who get reduced to tears after their performance because the song they skate to resonates with their lives that also have a lot of issues to fix.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

That's a thought-provoking moment indeed.

 

[Isk]

If I love a painting and later find out the painter was a murderer, it would be illogical to suddenly condemn the painting because of this. Nothing about the painting has changed and nobody's judgement of it should change. If anything, it should only increase the scientific value of the painting, if it can be used in a study that is able to link "genes that make people more likely to murder" with "genes that determine the types of colors and shapes painters prefer to use".

One has to be careful with this. This "genes that make people more likely to murder" with "genes that determine the types of colors and shapes painters prefer to use" is dangerous quackery. The rest of it has been argued in this thread.

I looked up the Simon Reed situation. This was unwise of Simon. Very much unwise. OTOH, Duhamel is often fairly judgemental in things outside her competence, I can understand that it... annoys people.

 

[Isk]

There is no need to be rude in your responses. You should never claim someone is stupid because they support a view that is different from yours. Earlier you claimed that my feelings were “irrelevant”, which was very dismissive. If someone doesn’t want to cheer or support S/S; that’s their right. I don’t understand why that should affect you and you seem to be taking it personally, which I find confusing. I realize no one is perfect; however, we as intellectual humans should strive to make amends and be better people when we commit mistakes and behave badly. The behavior that Alex exhibited is extremely triggering for victims of abuse and I find it highly insensitive when some people try to normalize bad behavior like this.

I personally have had an experience in my life many years ago when I was 22 years old and someone I was dating shouted close up to my face for an extended period of time and punched the wall behind where I was standing and claimed he would kill me while holding a knife in his hand, all because he was jealous that I was merely talking to a friend of his. I was physically unharmed, but really shaken by this event and it triggered a memory I had from when I was 12 years old and had someone I believed was a childhood friend hold a knife to my neck. I was also sexually abused by an older cousin on multiple occasions when I was 12 years old and, as an adult, my mom and I had a conversation where she revealed than an uncle, who is now passed away, had sexually abused her when she was a little girl. It’s frightening to think how abuse like this goes unchecked for many years. It’s extremely saddening to think about how long this has gone on in my two favorite sports, figure skating and gymnastics.

In the current sociopolitical climate we live in where hatred and division have run rampant among our “leaders”, we should strive to be kinder and more empathetic to one another, especially in times when we are struggling, as was evident in Alex and Maia’s video. A skater of Alex’s caliber knew that training sessions were being recorded at that rink; the video was especially triggering because it posed the question to many who wondered if this is how he treats her when they know they’re being recorded, then imagine how he treats her when the cameras are off? In the spirit of showing empathy, I don’t wish ill will on the Shib sibs. I do hope that Alex is trying to better manage his temper. I agree with you that Maia certainly can file a complaint against her brother and end the partnership if she believes her safety is/was in danger.

I just want everyone to be safe and I want everyone to do what’s best for their overall health. Life is way too stressful and time is too fleeting to be unhappy in one’s choices.

If everybody is always nice to everyone, people will unlearn to withstand someone who is not nice. There will be always someone who is not. Have you tried to think of someone being rude to you as a learning experience that helps you determine what you can and can't put up with and how to stand for yourself? It's a different thing when someone is being bullied who can not protect themselves, like a 12 year old sexually or an old or incapacitated person. But these are two able adult people who know each other well and have family and friends, and I bet they can afford paid emotional support if their unpaid support network fails.

I think that this is a straw man argument. Has anyone said that this incident has made Alex' skating worse than it was before?
(Although now that I think about it. it is not out of the question that friction between partners might have a negative impact on a team's performance.)

The friction was there before the video. Of course it affects the team's performance. Let's hope that hate from a hoard of fans doesn't.

If I could "like" this post X 100, I would do it.

My thoughts on this dispicable situation:

It is in our nature as humans to decry abuse on a theoretical level. It is also in our nature as humans, in our subconscious efforts to feel SAFE, to believe that we can "spot the bad person a mile away." So what happens when evidence arises that a perceived "good/safe person" shows themselves to be "not so good/safe?" It is in our nature to "blame the victim" or "blame the messenger" in order to protect our own percieved sense of safety. We all want to believe we are good judges of character (important for our sense of safety). Rather than admit to ourselves we were wrong, we seek an alternative explanation. This happens in a largely subconscious way. Con artists, scammers, rapists, and abusers of all manner and form take advantage of this aspect of human nature every moment of every day.

I try very hard to REMEMBER this aspect of my own very human nature when assessing evidence like this. Do I want to believe Alex Shibutani is a mysogynistic POS who speaks in abhorent ways to his sister? No, I do not. But what does the evidence tell me? I am once again humbled to have to recognize that yet again, I do NOT have the necessary radar to spot an abuser from a zillion miles away (or even up close). That is an uncomfortable truth about my own human nature for me (and for each of us) to grapple with.

And I think that is an uncomfortable truth that may still be riding well below the conscious surface for many skating fans, leading to a debate even happening about whether Alex is a POS or not. And in case it's not clear, in my opinion he is a POS based on the evidence.

Spotting some character traits in someone who appears once in a few months for 3 and 4.5 minutes to dance on ice and a couple of minutes in K&K is impossible. It is likewise impossible to perceive anything deep about people from a 10 minute training video.

 

[Mathman]

I understand the disapproval of his actions but it's almost like some people in this conversation think he personally owes them an apology. This is between them and nothing to do with fans.

I think it's a two-way street. Alex diesn't owe fans an apology. Fans don't owe Alex their affection and support.

If Alex chooses to apologize to the fans anyway, for disappointing them, that is his choice. He can do so, or not, as he wishes. If fans choose to give him support and best wishes going forward -- or to withhold it -- that's theirs.

 

[Isk]

I think it's a two-way street. Alex diesn't owe fans an apology. Fans don't owe Alex their affection and support.

If Alex chooses to apologize to the fans anyway, for disappointing them, that is his choice. He can do so, or not, as he wishes. If fans choose to give him support and best wishes going forward -- or to withhold it -- that's theirs.

When people like their illusions more than they like other people, not a million apologies will help them accept those other people the way they are. The Bible says not to make idols for oneself, common sense concurs. I am not a fan, didn't have illusions, don't need an apology. It was wise not to respond right away, it is usually wise. I just think their FD song is wrong, this whole idea of "fixing" someone as if they were a broken kettle. He was kinda trying to. At this point Shibs have a pressing issue of having lost to younger US teams at NHK.

 

[TontoK]

I think it's a two-way street. Alex diesn't owe fans an apology. Fans don't owe Alex their affection and support.

I think it's more of a one-way street in some respects. I owe skaters nothing in terms of support or loyalty. At the heart of the matter, they're entertainers, not my family. My support is a prize, and they must earn it.

It's their job to foster my fandom, and they do that by entertaining me. I want good programs and good technical content. I want to be "swept away." I want originality/innovation. I want that spark that makes me think, "I wish I could do that so I could know what that's like." My list of current favored skaters is fluid. It changes year to year, and sometimes competition by competition.

And since I know you're all wondering: Favorite men: Ilia and Yuma, soft spot for Alexander Selevko. Favorite ladies: Kaori Sakamoto and Alysa Liu (but her clock is ticking at the moment). Favorite Pair: The Germans, but I forget how to spell. Favorite Dance Team: Chock and Bates, and a little bit of Piper and Paul, but the clock is also ticking.... but if it's not these two, then I don't know who it would be... certainly not anyone else at the top of the world standings. I don't have a favorite Synchro Team or solo dancer, because that's not my jam.

 

[Isk]

I think it's more of a one-way street in some respects. I owe skaters nothing in terms of support or loyalty. At the heart of the matter, they're entertainers, not my family. My support is a prize, and they must earn it.

It's their job to foster my fandom, and they do that by entertaining me. I want good programs and good technical content. I want to be "swept away." I want originality/innovation. I want that spark that makes me think, "I wish I could do that so I could know what that's like." My list of current favored skaters is fluid. It changes year to year, and sometimes competition by competition.

And since I know you're all wondering: Favorite men: Ilia and Yuma, soft spot for Alexander Selevko. Favorite ladies: Kaori Sakamoto and Alysa Liu (but her clock is ticking at the moment). Favorite Pair: The Germans, but I forget how to spell. Favorite Dance Team: Chock and Bates, and a little bit of Piper and Paul, but the clock is also ticking.... but if it's not these two, then I don't know who it would be... certainly not anyone else at the top of the world standings. I don't have a favorite Synchro Team or solo dancer, because that's not my jam.

I think it would be wise then to separate family matters from sports matters. They entertain on ice, what happens off ice is their business and the business of people they work with, federations, law enforcement, etc. If you find someone entertaining, what more do you want from them - that they treat their sister the way you treat yours? You've been blessed with healthy family relations, others weren't. You wouldn't believe how many people with disabilities there are, who are very capable abusers of their families, bless them, and there is only so much anyone, including themselves, can do about it. If you don't know some sides of life, be thankful for it.
You want to be swept away, skaters want prize money and contracts to pay for the training to be able to entertain you.

 

[TontoK]

I think it would be wise then to separate family matters from sports matters. They entertain on ice, what happens off ice is their business and the business of people they work with, federations, law enforcement, etc. If you find someone entertaining, what more do you want from them - that they treat their sister the way you treat yours? You've been blessed with healthy family relations, others weren't. You wouldn't believe how many people with disabilities there are, who are very capable abusers of their families, bless them, and there is only so much anyone, including themselves, can do about it. If you don't know some sides of life, be thankful for it.
You want to be swept away, skaters want prize money and contracts to pay for the training to be able to entertain you.

Entertaining me has many facets. If I think Alex in an a-hole, then I won't find him entertaining. I don't owe it to him or anyone else to "get past it."

The longer this discussion has gone on, the more I agree with your point about my blessings, and I am grateful for them. And I think more and more that my earlier thoughts about age might be correct. Older people tend not to put up with this kind of stuff, viewing it as a breach of the social construct, and younger people seem to be more forgiving.

 

[Mathman]

It's their job to foster my fandom, and they do that by entertaining me. I want good programs and good technical content. I want to be "swept away."

Still, an entertainer, a job holder, an employee, a fandom-fosterer -- is not a slave. If Alex said, "screw Tonto K,, I don't care what he wants or what he is swept away by" -- he is free to do so.

If there are adverse consequence for this stance (loss of future revenue for instance), he must be prepared to bear them.

 

[Mathman]

I just think their FD song is wrong, this whole idea of "fixing" someone as if they were a broken kettle.

I have no objection to the song. The lyrics are about offering emotional support to someone whose world is folling apart, and in fact tt was written by the lead singer of Coldplay for his real-life wife who had just lost her father.

I can see why the Shibs want to bring it back -- it was the best-received program of their career back in the day.

 

[noskates]

Not taking sides in this personal, family matter that everyone here seems to be an expert on based on a video. But to imply that a "fix" is in is just ludicrous. You certainly aren't giving TPTB much credit. Maia certainly didn't seem to be in any distress and the two of them may deserve an oscar for "pretending" to still have sibling love for each other - if in fact it was pretending. Alex didn't kill anybody, Alex didn't maim anybody, Alex didn't draw blood or leave any discernible scars. Did I like what I saw? No. But in the wide world of things that are wrong in this country alone, there are other actions and events that are more far-reaching. It would be nice to just set aside all this vitriol and concentrate on skating. I don't think Alex owes anybody an apology except Maia. And their music is beautiful and was well-skated to previously. There is no hidden message in the lyrics! If you choose to continue hating on him, go to the refrigerator and get a cold drink when it's their time to skate. You don't have to like them or like him or be interested in their results.

 

[TontoK]

Not taking sides in this personal, family matter that everyone here seems to be an expert on based on a video. But to imply that a "fix" is in is just ludicrous. You certainly aren't giving TPTB much credit. Maia certainly didn't seem to be in any distress and the two of them may deserve an oscar for "pretending" to still have sibling love for each other - if in fact it was pretending. Alex didn't kill anybody, Alex didn't maim anybody, Alex didn't draw blood or leave any discernible scars. Did I like what I saw? No. But in the wide world of things that are wrong in this country alone, there are other actions and events that are more far-reaching. It would be nice to just set aside all this vitriol and concentrate on skating. I don't think Alex owes anybody an apology except Maia. And their music is beautiful and was well-skated to previously. There is no hidden message in the lyrics! If you choose to continue hating on him, go to the refrigerator and get a cold drink when it's their time to skate. You don't have to like them or like him or be interested in their results.

I've already said that Alex doesn't owe me an apology or anything else. I'm not sure what you want, unless you want me to support him. I'm sorry, but I'm not.

 

[noskates]

I don't want anything from you and wasn't speaking to you specifically. I don't honestly care who supports him or who doesn't. I just think this kind of diatribe has gone on too long. Everything that can be said has been said. I don't know what any of you want to accomplish by repeating the same stuff over and over and over. Nobody's opinion is going to change. The horse is dead. Why keep beating it?

 

[TontoK]

I don't want anything from you and wasn't speaking to you specifically. I don't honestly care who supports him or who doesn't. I just think this kind of diatribe has gone on too long. Everything that can be said has been said. I don't know what any of you want to accomplish by repeating the same stuff over and over and over. Nobody's opinion is going to change. The horse is dead. Why keep beating it?

Actually, I agree with you. I'll hush unless something breaks to reopen the story.