Skate Canada to allow any 2 athletes to compete together in ice dance, pairs

[Diana Delafield]

This will make some difference re the difficulty of finding a partner, but will it be enough? I'd like also to see solo dance brought up to higher levels of competition. I guess something would have to be added to the repertoire to replace jumps and lifts, but I know when I tried solo dance just for fun it made a big difference in my basic skating skills. I couldn't disguise which turns were a weakness by doing my stronger ones between being lifted by my pairs partner. Years ago I remember seeing a beautiful professional routine Janet Lynn did where you didn't even notice, until it was pointed out later,
that she did no jumps in the program at all. That's the kind of thing I'd like to see explored as well as same gender couples ("Synchro Duet" event?).

 

[Anna K.]

In acrobatics, same sex duos work very well. Just saying.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Found Janet Lynn's program I mentioned earlier in YouTube but couldn't get it transferred to here as a link, with my limited technological skills. It's a professional competition with Toller Cranston commentating and explaining that she is skating with a knee injury, hence the lack of jumps. She does do one single Axel and later a tiny waltz jump, but the rest is solo dance. Search for Janet Lynn - Kumbaya (1983) if you're interested.

 

[yesterday]

^^

here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP0VICtVhWI

 

[skatesofgold]

In acrobatics, same sex duos work very well. Just saying.

They compete in their own categories (mixed pair, women's pair, men's pair, women's group, men's group), though. I'm not sure what figure skating is aiming for.

 

[gkelly]

They compete in their own categories (mixed pair, women's pair, men's pair, women's group, men's group), though. I'm not sure what figure skating is aiming for.

Technique wise, I think ice dance can be gender neutral, with just "two athletes" of any gender.

For pair skating, I think that it would be better to have a separate event for women's pairs, with different lift rules. Possibly for men's pairs as well if there are enough teams.

 

[TontoK]

I'm following this with mild interest and with some skepticism.

I don't see how @gkelly observations would be implemented at major competitions... potentially three different pairs events at every GP, WC, Euro/4cc, and Olympics... but we will see.

Also... would all ISU member federations vote on this? If so, I'm not at all sure it would pass, provided each fed gets one vote. As I said, we will see.

 

[el henry]

I'm following this with mild interest and with some skepticism.

I don't see how @gkelly observations would be implemented at major competitions... potentially three different pairs events at every GP, WC, Euro/4cc, and Olympics... but we will see.

Also... would all ISU member federations vote on this? If so, I'm not at all sure it would pass, provided each fed gets one vote. As I said, we will see.

I liked how the article sought feedback and addressed the chances of passage, particularly where it said that the officials thought "with considerable surprise" that the chances of passages were good.

I also really liked the detail from Madi and Gabi describing how women currently physically learn (or are forced to learn) ice dance, and how that could change. I didn't know some of the ID technicalities, so that was also information I could use in evaluating the proposal.

 

[Diana Delafield]

They compete in their own categories (mixed pair, women's pair, men's pair, women's group, men's group), though. I'm not sure what figure skating is aiming for.

Like in synchro diving for pairs -- mixed, women's, men's.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Technique wise, I think ice dance can be gender neutral, with just "two athletes" of any gender.

For pair skating, I think that it would be better to have a separate event for women's pairs, with different lift rules. Possibly for men's pairs as well if there are enough teams.

It would certainly make it safer, particularly for those in the learning stages. Although clothing manufacturers considered me to be "petite" (under 5'4"), I was tallish for a pairs skater. The safest partners I had were 5'10" and 6'2" and both were almost twice my weight, mostly muscle. You really need that size difference for performing lifts at speed. There was a mention of lifts by women in synchronized skating, but any I've seen have involved at least three lifters for the one in the air. When they do death spirals, the supporting partner seems to always use two hands, so as not to be pulled forwards off-balance.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I'm following this with mild interest and with some skepticism.

I don't see how @gkelly observations would be implemented at major competitions... potentially three different pairs events at every GP, WC, Euro/4cc, and Olympics... but we will see.

Also... would all ISU member federations vote on this? If so, I'm not at all sure it would pass, provided each fed gets one vote. As I said, we will see.

I agree that it would splinter into multiple small events with just a few entries in some. Although they seem to cope with that in swimming and track sports, but would it hold a skating audience's attention for the whole competition? As for federation voting, I can see some smaller countries voting yes even though they privately thought there would be no competitors in their own country, but didn't want to be accused of being "unwoke" if there is such a word.

 

[el henry]

I will refrain from talking politics to comply with the rules for The Edge.

I think many of the smaller federations would vote for the resolution with pleasure, because they could actually more easily field an ID team with two women than scrounge around for an available man.

I will say that IME young folks have far less of a "startle" issue with these pairings (or at least the younger ones that old Auntie El knows) and of all the ways to appeal to younger folks, this has as much of a chance as 85 quads a program.

I see no harm in trying. And that's coming from someone who still may have a lingering "startle" factor in seeing same gender pairings on the ice, despite her best efforts.

 

[Diana Delafield]

^^

here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP0VICtVhWI

(I really need to take those grandkids up on their offers to teach Clueless Gran more computer skills!)

 

[Diana Delafield]

I will refrain from talking politics to comply with the rules for The Edge.

I think many of the smaller federations would vote for the resolution with pleasure, because they could actually more easily field an ID team with two women than scrounge around for an available man.

I will say that IME young folks have far less of a "startle" issue with these pairings (or at least the younger ones that old Auntie El knows) and of all the ways to appeal to younger folks, this has as much of a chance as 85 quads a program.

I see no harm in trying. And that's coming from someone who still may have a lingering "startle" factor in seeing same gender pairings on the ice, despite her best efforts.

Right. I was thinking solely of pairs, I'm afraid, and not remembering dance. In ballet there are pairings of two ballerinas, and dance-offs between two men in Irish dance...I can see ice dance programs of that ilk. Maybe some of those smaller federations would hope that they could even keep more of their skaters representing their own countries instead of roaming the world looking for partners elsewhere. Lots of possibilities I didn't think of at first, with my pairs blinders on

 

[TeamGubanova]

I honestly don't get why they need to do this. There have been many queer athletes who have competed in the traditional pairs discipline and have done fine. We should also talk about that one of the few ways an all-male pair team (the one probably more likely to be successful) will be created is that they will have to team up 25-year-old big adult men with 13-15 year old Arseny Fedotov's. I support the Trans community, but I feel that this new initiative may open up the gates to more harm than good, much like increasing the age to 17 highly affected the pairs discipline even though that's not what its attention was for. (P.S - I may be wrong about this whole team and we will see some great same-gender teams, but hopefully the ISU Congress looks at all consequences good or bad before implementing this revolutionary rule change)

 

[4everchan]

It's not about queer athletes as much as it is an opportunity to develop good partnering skills with kids at their local clubs... It's hard to find suitable male partners in the smaller clubs. This can help develop the sport from the earlier stages and lead to a better comprehension and access of the dance and pairs discipline down the road. It's about equal opportunity and inclusion of all kids. There is no need to worry about 25 year old men throwing a 12 year old boy into a quint loop.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

We should also talk about that one of the few ways an all-male pair team (the one probably more likely to be successful) will be created is that they will have to team up 25-year-old big adult men with 13-15 year old Arseny Fedotov's.

And in which age category are they supposed to compete? As far as I can see, this development does not affect the age rules whatsoever.

So at most, you'd have a 20/21-year-old throwing around a 13-year-old (which is not new... Just look at Baram/Tioumentsev and Murakami/Moriguchi) for one season, and anyone older will have to live with a 17-year-old, where having to throw and lift a man would potentially become more of a hazard than an advantage.

Sure, male-male teams would likely have a leg up on women-women teams in pairs, and in terms of side-by-side jumps also on women-men teams, but overall, both same-sex teams would likely experience significant drawbacks by the time they reach seniors, which would still make a different-sex team the desired pairing in most cases.

 

[skatesofgold]

Technique wise, I think ice dance can be gender neutral, with just "two athletes" of any gender.

For pair skating, I think that it would be better to have a separate event for women's pairs, with different lift rules. Possibly for men's pairs as well if there are enough teams.

Yeah, I just have questions about being both inclusive and fair.

 

[TontoK]

It's not about queer athletes as much as it is an opportunity to develop good partnering skills with kids at their local clubs... It's hard to find suitable male partners in the smaller clubs. This can help develop the sport from the earlier stages and lead to a better comprehension and access of the dance and pairs discipline down the road. It's about equal opportunity and inclusion of all kids. There is no need to worry about 25 year old men throwing a 12 year old boy into a quint loop.

I agree it's not about gay athletes. Figure skating may have many problems, but lack of access for gays is not one of them.

But, I'm not sure I buy your explanation about this being for developmental reasons. If that were the case, why would the ISU need to get involved at all? I also confess I'm not sure about the ISU's mandate. Maybe childhood opportunities fall under its charter (that's not snark.... I honestly don't know.)

 

[lariko]

Honestly, I can't wait to see how this will develop. Having adup discipline would be great and I want to see tall women finally find their place in this sport.