Skate Canada to allow any 2 athletes to compete together in ice dance, pairs

[4everchan]

I agree it's not about gay athletes. Figure skating may have many problems, but lack of access for gays is not one of them.

But, I'm not sure I buy your explanation about this being for developmental reasons. If that were the case, why would the ISU need to get involved at all? I also confess I'm not sure about the ISU's mandate. Maybe childhood opportunities fall under its charter (that's not snark.... I honestly don't know.)

This started with the Skate Canada movement ... and that's the explanation they gave. The ISU is probably getting involved because it's a great recruitment tool... As figure skating fans, we see only the elite aspect of the sport... the ISU sees bigger... there is no elite sport without development. It's the same in many fields... the top music conservatories all over the place are now opening doors to young musicians that are not quite at the elite level... Once it was only about the elite.. the most talented musicians.. .but who is going to pay the bills? Recruitment is key, and those partnered disciplines are suffering because of the lack of opportunities... The ISU just embraced the movement because it sees the positive effect it could have on developing young skaters who don't necessarily want to do singles. (obviously, i am not quite yet president of the ISU, so that's just my take on it )

 

[jenaj]

Honestly, I can't wait to see how this will develop. Having adup discipline would be great and I want to see tall women finally find their place in this sport.

If tall women can skate pairs, why can't they skate singles? If the issue is more difficult jumps, is it not possible that someone who can do a 3 toe or 3 sal might also be able to do the flip and lutz, regardless of height?

 

[4everchan]

If tall women can skate pairs, why can't they skate singles? If the issue is more difficult jumps, is it not possible that someone who can do a 3 toe or 3 sal might also be able to do the flip and lutz, regardless of height?

How tall are we talking about? Osmond and kostner, probably the tallest world champions with these jumps...

 

[yume]

I honestly don't get why they need to do this. There have been many queer athletes who have competed in the traditional pairs discipline and have done fine. We should also talk about that one of the few ways an all-male pair team (the one probably more likely to be successful) will be created is that they will have to team up 25-year-old big adult men with 13-15 year old Arseny Fedotov's. I support the Trans community, but I feel that this new initiative may open up the gates to more harm than good, much like increasing the age to 17 highly affected the pairs discipline even though that's not what its attention was for. (P.S - I may be wrong about this whole team and we will see some great same-gender teams, but hopefully the ISU Congress looks at all consequences good or bad before implementing this revolutionary rule change)

I think that when they talk about same sex pairs/ice dance couples, they mean two cis women, two cis men, or two non-binary but biological men or women, or also a combo of a cis man/woman and a non-binary but biological man/woman.

Opening this to transgender skaters without creating their own category would produce the same uproar than in other sports that allowed transgender athletes (especially transgender women) to compete. Unless science comes up with a 100% proof that transgender women don't have any advantage over biological women i don't see this being accepted easily. There is a reason why world athletics banned transgender women to compete against biological women.

 

[TontoK]

Honestly, I can't wait to see how this will develop. Having adup discipline would be great and I want to see tall women finally find their place in this sport.

I'm not sure about this either. Not meaning to be overly harsh, but physical abilities and characteristics impact all sports.

Skinny non-muscular men don't make it to the NFL. Likewise, there's a ceiling for short men in basketball, no matter how passionate they are.

I don't know why a tall woman would be a better fit for pairs than singles. Aren't the most successful pair ladies petite? Maybe you're talking about the stronger woman in a same-sex partnership who would do the lifting (I don't know their right phrasing here - the "male equivalent" sounds not right but that's what I'm getting at).

 

[gkelly]

I don't know why a tall woman would be a better fit for pairs than singles. Aren't the most successful pair ladies petite? Maybe you're talking about the stronger woman in a same-sex partnership who would do the lifting (I don't know their right phrasing here - the "male equivalent" sounds not right but that's what I'm getting at).

"The lifting partner" is language that is already used in official documents.

 

[Colonel Green]

I don't know why a tall woman would be a better fit for pairs than singles. Aren't the most successful pair ladies petite? Maybe you're talking about the stronger woman in a same-sex partnership who would do the lifting (I don't know their right phrasing here - the "male equivalent" sounds not right but that's what I'm getting at).

That is very obviously what they are talking about.

 

[Diana Delafield]

How tall are we talking about? Osmond and kostner, probably the tallest world champions with these jumps...

I was watching the gold medal performance of Les Supremes (winning, ahem, the synchro world championships for the second year in a row and getting virtually no publicity for it, not even CBC) and saw one skater who's about a head taller than all the others but managed with a lot of knee bend not to stick out. Not doing jumps there, but I noticed they had her doing a lot of the lifting and being the supporting partner to another skater doing a death spiral. My sister-in-law is about 5'10" and always wanted to skate but was discouraged from even taking lessons by coaches who tried to talk her into speed skating instead. I have to admit I tried to teach her a few moves when she was first dating my brother and he'd bring her to competitions to watch me, but her centre of balance was way off and she kept tipping forward and tripping so we gave up.

 

[4everchan]

I was watching the gold medal performance of Les Supremes (winning, ahem, the synchro world championships for the second year in a row and getting virtually no publicity for it, not even CBC) and saw one skater who's about a head taller than all the others but managed with a lot of knee bend not to stick out. Not doing jumps there, but I noticed they had her doing a lot of the lifting and being the supporting partner to another skater doing a death spiral. My sister-in-law is about 5'10" and always wanted to skate but was discouraged from even taking lessons by coaches who tried to talk her into speed skating instead. I have to admit I tried to teach her a few moves when she was first dating my brother and he'd bring her to competitions to watch me, but her centre of balance was way off and she kept tipping forward and tripping so we gave up.

Go to the synchro side of this forum. I shared a short film of les suprêmes made by french cbc...

 

[Diana Delafield]

I don't know why a tall woman would be a better fit for pairs than singles. Aren't the most successful pair ladies petite?

I used to feel tall in pairs warm-up groups where I was almost 5'4" (OK, not quite, but I sort of tippytoed a bit when being measured ) Isn't that Brooke McIntosh's height? The commentators remark on how tall and long-legged she is for a pair skater.

Maybe you're talking about the stronger woman in a same-sex partnership who would do the lifting (I don't know their right phrasing here - the "male equivalent" sounds not right but that's what I'm getting at).

At my ballroom dance school we have a married male couple who compete together, but one is about 6' and muscular and does the man's set steps, while his much smaller, slimmer husband does the women's steps. They both wear the traditional white-tie suits for Standard dances and matching bright shirts and black pants for Latin, and look quite good. It can work, the pair just has to figure out how to fit themselves to the rules. Which for skating might have to be somewhat rewritten, I guess, as the sport feels its way into this new idea. I haven't read the rules since I stopped skating myself.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Go to the synchro side of this forum. I shared a short film of les suprêmes made by french cbc...

Apart from knowledgeable people such as the GS inhabitants, of course.

 

[lariko]

I'm not sure about this either. Not meaning to be overly harsh, but physical abilities and characteristics impact all sports.

Skinny non-muscular men don't make it to the NFL. Likewise, there's a ceiling for short men in basketball, no matter how passionate they are.

I don't know why a tall woman would be a better fit for pairs than singles. Aren't the most successful pair ladies petite? Maybe you're talking about the stronger woman in a same-sex partnership who would do the lifting (I don't know their right phrasing here - the "male equivalent" sounds not right but that's what I'm getting at).

Yes, FxF dance duos, for lifting partners. Taller, more athletic women will do great in that placement, and I am really excited for it.

 

[el henry]

What sports are people watching where there are no tall, muscular, powerful women who could easily lift, hold, etc, another woman?

Also, even for men, this is figure skating, not weight lifting. Pairs guys need to, wait for it, skate. They need to jump (they are actually amazing athletes balancing the skating moves with the "power" moves, but as skating fans we know that ).

In addition, the woman (lifted partner) is working it during those moves that require some upper body strength. Deanna recently gave an interview where she said, before I started pairs, I thought death spiral looks fun, I'll have time to rest. Then she started laughing loudly and Maxime, with her, laughed loudly too.

I think this has already been pointed out, but none of these guys are playing for the offensive line in the NFL. There are many pairs guys, both of Deanna's partners for example, who are under 6 feet tall. Why is this some impossible standard for an athletic woman?

Same gender pairings are do-able, they expand the reach of the sport, more skating! What could be better?

 

[el henry]

Double posting for a different point: Same gender pairing of men is not all about quint jumps, heaven forbid.

In the show "Ice Explosion" Jason Brown and Daisuke Takahashi skated together for about a minute, at the start of this program. Granted, the moves are show moves, but the important part of this program was the beauty that Dai and Jason brought to their moves. Same gender men pairing cannot, should not, will not be all about strength.

The photo:



The routine:

 

[skatesofgold]

What sports are people watching where there are no tall, muscular, powerful women who could easily lift, hold, etc, another woman?

Also, even for men, this is figure skating, not weight lifting. Pairs guys need to, wait for it, skate. They need to jump (they are actually amazing athletes balancing the skating moves with the "power" moves, but as skating fans we know that ).

In addition, the woman (lifted partner) is working it during those moves that require some upper body strength. Deanna recently gave an interview where she said, before I started pairs, I thought death spiral looks fun, I'll have time to rest. Then she started laughing loudly and Maxime, with her, laughed loudly too.

I think this has already been pointed out, but none of these guys are playing for the offensive line in the NFL. There are many pairs guys, both of Deanna's partners for example, who are under 6 feet tall. Why is this some impossible standard for an athletic woman?

Same gender pairings are do-able, they expand the reach of the sport, more skating! What could be better?

I have no idea. Women lift other women in sports acrobatics and cheerleading. Even I (and I'm relatively small) could do basic cheerleading stunts as a base when I did cheer camps in middle school. It's more about arm strength and I had it from gymnastics. I ended up sticking with gymnastics in high school, but still.

 

[icewhite]

Just stopping by to say that is a great and necessary development. So many women are struggling to find a suitable skating partner and it makes them more vulnerable to accept conditions and situations they otherwise wouldn't.
Also, figure skating as a whole (to be fair like many sports) is still so normative when it comes to gender, and I think this step can help break this up a bit.
Apart from the obvious advantage that now more girls/women will have someone to skate with, especially for pairs this is the way to survive as a discipline I think and it's nice for the individual skater who is looking for a partner.
And taller, muscular women will have a place in figure skating, yeah! The only losers might be tall men with bad skating skills...

 

[synesthesia]

Double posting for a different point: Same gender pairing of men is not all about quint jumps, heaven forbid.

In the show "Ice Explosion" Jason Brown and Daisuke Takahashi skated together for about a minute, at the start of this program. Granted, the moves are show moves, but the important part of this program was the beauty that Dai and Jason brought to their moves. Same gender men pairing cannot, should not, will not be all about strength.

The photo:



The routine:

I love all parts of this group number and the different pairings. The middle part is also a great example of how beautiful and interesting female pairings can be.

What’s particularly notable is the ice dance lift performed at 2:14. Even though Dai is 4 inches / 10 cm shorter than Massimo and they are pretty much equally muscular, Dai is able to lift Massimo, proving that technique and using physics as much as possible can be a great aid for similarly built partners. If this lift was held for 3 seconds it would earn a level 1 (lifting partner sustains a difficult position for at least 3 seconds (crouch with two knees bent)). Adding an unexpected/creative/diffcult entry and exit would already bump it up to a level 3.

 

[el henry]

I love all parts of this group number and the different pairings. The middle part is also a great example of how beautiful and interesting female pairings can be.

What’s particularly notable is the ice dance lift performed at 2:14. Even though Dai is 4 inches / 10 cm shorter than Massimo and they are pretty much equally muscular, Dai is able to lift Massimo, proving that technique and using physics as much as possible can be a great aid for similarly built partners. If this lift was held for 3 seconds it would earn a level 1 (lifting partner sustains a difficult position for at least 3 seconds (crouch with two knees bent)). Adding an unexpected/creative/diffcult entry and exit would already bump it up to a level 3.

You are right that the entire number shows the intricacy and possibilities of same gender pairings. I only concentrated on the first part because I wanted a short clip to show that: 1) men/men pairings can be artistic and beautiful and nothing to do with throwing each other around and 2) well, I do stan a certain skater

The whole clip is intriguing.

 

[yesterday]

The only losers might be tall men with bad skating skills...

We'll send them to Volleyball

 

[lariko]

Just stopping by to say that is a great and necessary development. So many women are struggling to find a suitable skating partner and it makes them more vulnerable to accept conditions and situations they otherwise wouldn't.
Also, figure skating as a whole (to be fair like many sports) is still so normative when it comes to gender, and I think this step can help break this up a bit.
Apart from the obvious advantage that now more girls/women will have someone to skate with, especially for pairs this is the way to survive as a discipline I think and it's nice for the individual skater who is looking for a partner.
And taller, muscular women will have a place in figure skating, yeah! The only losers might be tall men with bad skating skills...

The best thing about this proposition is that there will be no loosers. Just new possibilities and avenues to explore.