Skaters who improved their Skating Skills program component over time | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Skaters who improved their Skating Skills program component over time

He went from a cat to a zebra. :)
Hah, that space zebra outfit is iconic for all the wrong reasons. It's like so aggressively tacky and distracting and has zero connection to The Four Seasons - but oddly in its quirkiness it's also very Stephane. It's in the Olympic Museum as an artefact actually! https://olympic-museum-artefacts.zetcom.net/en/collection/item/141673/

Though I suppose if we asked certain lambiel fans, they'd probably retort with something like, "It's not tacky at all... it is a visionary manifesto stitched in sequins and audacity, a triumph of artistic courage that transformed the ice into a savannah of self-expression with a heroically unapologetic and gloriously untamed striped masterpiece serving as a visual crescendo to his skating, amplifying every spin into a display of kinetic art and a declaration of aesthetic dominance. Better than most costumes seen these days, and many others from that era and earlier. Really helped the program build, too".
 
Last edited:
Hah, that space zebra outfit is iconic for all the wrong reasons. It's like so aggressively tacky and distracting and has zero connection to The Four Seasons - but oddly in its quirkiness it's also very Stephane. It's in the Olympic Museum as an artefact actually! https://olympic-museum-artefacts.zetcom.net/en/collection/item/141673/

Though I suppose if we asked certain lambiel fans, they'd probably retort with something like, "It's not tacky at all... it is a visionary manifesto stitched in sequins and audacity, a triumph of artistic courage that transformed the ice into a savannah of self-expression with a heroically unapologetic and gloriously untamed striped masterpiece serving as a visual crescendo to his skating, amplifying every spin into a display of kinetic art and a declaration of aesthetic dominance. Better than most costumes seen these days, and many others from that era and earlier. Really helped the program build, too".
It's "a zebra with butterfly wings flying across the snow through the winter towards the spring". This is Stephane's official explanation of his concept of Winter from Four Seasons. Just saying.

And now I need to go back one page to find out how a costume discussion has sneaked into a Skating Skills thread 😡
 
Here is an example how much a skater can improve her skating skills in one year: Looking at her skating with one year apart - same event, same program, same camera angle - changes are noticeable.

This is the video from the Japanese Championships 2024:

This is the video from the Japanese Championships 2025:

What I noticed:
After the starting pose: in 2024, she twizzles on the spot and takes the next pose about one step to the left; in 2025, she twizzles to the left and covers some ice before she takes the next pose and pauses (better ice coverage)
Next, from pose 2 she skates to the right across the rink: in 2024, her trajectory is almost a straight line, minimal curves; in 2025, she skates in deep curves and her trajectory is rather an S (deeper edges)
Next, she gains speed before combo: in 2024, she uses 3 crossovers to accelerate; in 2025, she uses 2 crossovers (better speed control)
Next, the transition to axel: in 2024, she does 3 turns/direction changes; in 2025, she does 5 (more variety)...
...allright, I'm tired of writing just like you are tired of reading so I will stop here.

I'll only add that there is indeed a way to go; we can hear a lot of noise from her skating and also visually her stroke is not as light as we have seen from the best. But the improvement was absolutely worth doing. Her PCS mark jumped up. She had her musical sensitivity a year ago just like she had it this year but the improved skating skills added a larger dimension and more expression to all her movements. To me, it felt like a different program :love:

Work on your skating skills, skaters, it will make you look cool and you will receive higher PCS :rock:
 
Last edited:
Next, she gains speed before combo: in 2024, she uses 3 crossovers to accelerate; in 2025, she uses 2 crossovers (better speed control)
*Is* she going into the combo with the same amount of speed in both cases?
 
*Is* she going into the combo with the same amount of speed in both cases?
It's a rough estimate but there could be more speed in 2025.
In both videos, she starts crossovers at 0.27 and skates the same distance from bottom right corner to the middle of the left board before she takes off; but in 2024 she takes off at 0.36, in 2025 at 0.35
 
Last edited:
Ouch. It'd be quite hurtful to be given as a reference example of "weak" skills.
I humbly believe that my format of comparing skaters with the earlier versions of themselves is a much better way how to explain the difference in skills :)

Although we have only one example that shows the progression from "weak" to "good" on this thread; others are rather from "average" to "good" or from "above average" ("sixes") to "excellent" ("nines") if we use the current 10 point scale.
 
Last edited:
Are we speaking about the ISU scale for judging "improvement"? If so, that is rather useless to me. No coach is going "you're a 5 currently, we need to get you to 7".

@gkelly is the one who wrote a useful analysis about the circular/serpentine steps from Kulik versus straight line step sequences (although apparently not on this thread).

EDIT:
In terms of Composition at that competition, I've got to go with Kulik's short program. Aside from the setup for the triple axel combo, there's barely any crossovers in the rest of the program. Always something interesting going on and linking together elements like circular steps directly into double axel. Plus he was one of the few skaters to choose circular and serpentine step sequences, instead of a straight-line sequence for one of them, for which the rules at the time actually discouraged deep edges.

All of which probably says something about Skating Skills as well.
 
Are we speaking about the ISU scale for judging "improvement"? If so, that is rather useless to me. No coach is going "you're a 5 currently, we need to get you to 7".

@gkelly is the one who wrote a useful analysis about the circular/serpentine steps from Kulik versus straight line step sequences (although apparently not on this thread).

EDIT:
No, we are not discussing the ISU judging scale. In this thread, we are taking it as a fact.

There is a certain way how the Skating Skills component is defined within IJS (in my previous posts, I have included references to the ISU Handbook of rules, a video guide of what to look at/what judges look at, and ISU examples for reference above). The purpose of this thread is posting/discussing examples of skaters who have made visible progress according to these criteria (and sharing the secret tips about how we noticed that - eta).

So, in a Step Sequence, the balance, flow, sureness, speed, and direction (meaning: is the sequence traveling the same direction the skater rotates when jumping or the opposite direction) are judged as the Skating Skills component but not the steps as such which is a technical element and a subject of a different thread as you fairly noted.

Did I answer you question?
 
Last edited:
In dance, I am most looking for clean edges (no flying snow or wobbling ankles) to evaluate skating skills.

You could also look at raw speed, as indicated by pattern size, and how blurry the ads are as the skaters fly by them.

The old CD'S were a good .measure of this, because you could look at a young team and then look at the same team doing the same steps exactly some years later.

The same was true for compulsory figures.

It's unfortunately true that there are few videos of bad CD'S to be found any more.

Here's a 16 year old with great spins,
https://youtu.be/OwO542dGDH4?si=Ywk445KJ4Y2tT7-6

But not the blade control he shows here:

Here's some example of a pretty weak CD in seniors - Valadzenkava/Vakunov


And the same compulsory dance but done extremely well. I wasn't rooting for Domnina/Shabalina but they were great technicians and it particularly stood out in CDs, I've found them delightful. A pity they're gone IMHO (the pattern dances). They won this segment and also became European Champions afterwords there. And they won despite finishing 2nd in OD (they performed their infamous dance there) and in FD behind Faiella/Scali. So it was possible to win a big competition based on the strength of your compulsory dance then whereas I remember people talking that you could have only ''lose it there''


Why the links don't embed properly? Can someone help?
 
Last edited:
All YouTube's embed like that, sad to say. It is due to the way YouTube sets them up.

If you want only the link to show, unfurl has to be listed as false.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejHPxw_g2Z0

If you want to put more descriptive info in, you have to type in the link info yourself.

Domnina & Shabalin 2010 Europeans CD

If you want to show it as a playable video, pick the icon of 2 pictures from the tool bar, paste in the YouTube link and hit Continue.

 
Kaitlyn Hawayek and Nathan Chen are the two people that come to mind. Kaitlyn was of course always compared to Jean-Luc, whose skating skills were fabulous, but she did a pretty good job closing that gap as much as she could. Chen was such a jumps only guy at the beginning of his career, and he really worked hard to change that image over time.
 
This thread is actually pretty good because it affords the opportunity to think through. Nathan always had good basics and did good step sequences. What I disagree with actually is that these basics were ever taken to a particularly noteworthy extent. He also never developed particularly amazing glide, and it made him look heavy.
 
Olympic champions Shen & Zhao rose up to World podium level in 98-99
and were seen as inferior artistically to their competitors (B\S, and later on S\P)
to the point where their second mark (Started under the 6.0 system) was dropped so that
they could go clean and still not get the win even if the others made a mistake,
going into the infamous 2002 Olympics they had to train (and fail attempt) a throw 4Sal
in their FS just to have any kind of shot to shine against their competitors

By the time they won their 2nd consecutive world title in 2003 it seemed
like the tables have turned and now they were the second mark standard,
at the 2004 worlds they even got 10 6.0s on that mark (Last year of
the 6.0 system, judges were generous :sneaky: )

Going into the IJS and until their eventual Olympic title in 2010
they were top of the pile for components (whenever not dealing with injury).
 
Surya Bonaly never became Yuka Sato, but she did improve her skating skills over time.
Thank you for this note!
Surya was used as an example of "bad" skating in the ISU videos that I linked above and I hate it when it happens without a reference of how much the skater improved later.

That's why I will post here two videos with 20 years apart. Since Surya has been used as an example, I will check the performance of young Surya for the presence of "seven serious skating sins" that were named here as markers for PCS judges and knowledgeable spectators - and I will check the other video if the "sins" are still present.
I will also share tips what I looked at when I judged. If you have more and better tips, please, share!

This is Surya Bonaly in 1991:



It's a champion's program by its vibe and technical difficulty. But are the "sins" there?
Let's go through the list!

"Stiff knees" - Tips: watching the legs. If a leg goes straight-bent, straight-bent all the time, it’s a “soft knee”. If skater's leg does very little bending, it’s a “stiff knee”.
Surya’s legs tend to freeze in one angle when bent and then she does a big portion of the program on equally stiff straight legs. This is truly an example of "stiff knees". Guilty.

“Bending too far forward” - Tips: watching the back. The best way to keep from bending too far forward is to comply with the “bend your ankles, not your waist” rule. To bend your ankles, you must sit into you knees with a straight back and push your shins downwards. So, a straight back when a skater sits into knees is the best indicator that everything's fine. However, sometimes the ankles just don’t bend enough and it's anatomic. It that case, there is no other choice but to bend skater's waist, which means that the back is arched upwards to keep from bending too far forward. So, if the back is arched, watch out for other indicators - like, problems to gain speed and keep balance - that suggest that it is not arched enough to ensure the gravity center over the right part of the blade.
Surya arches her back but her front is still too far forward to provide a good placement of gravity center, which causes (see the next sin)... Guilty.

“Balancing on the wrong part of the blade” – Tips: watching the ankles. If a skater can bend an ankle a lot so that there is an acute angle between the foot and the lover leg, that skater has plenty of space to manage the weight over the necessary part of the blade (see also tips for "bending too far forward" and "stiff knees"). If the leg bend doesn't go further than a right angle between the foot and the lower leg, it's another indicator that ankles don't bend and the skater will struggle finding the balance on the right part of the blade. (Reminder about which part is the right part: back of the skate for skating forward, front of the skate for skating backwards, right edge for turning right, left edge for turning left on the inside/outside circle for each leg respectively. Hence messing up these result as visible problems with speed, directions, edges, turns, and fighting for balance or tripping over at times.)
Surya's foot and lover leg form a right angle at all times. Hence her capacity to manage the balance is limited and her gravity center stays somewhere above the rocker of her blade, which is not the right part unless you want to slide flat. Guilty.

“Incomplete pushes” - Tips: counting the crossovers. If a skater needs too many crossovers to gain speed, the pushes must be rather incomplete.
Surya makes this tip unnecessary. Her center of gravity is not over the proper part of the blade during the crossovers, which is why she can't keep the speed that she gains from the pushes. So, after the series of crossovers, she still doesn’t have enough speed for the element and needs an extra push from the toe. Incomplete pushes can hardly get more obvious. Guilty.

“Pushing from the toes” – Tips: this is a tip in itself. If a skater needs and extra push from the toe to keep going, then most likely all the above sins are already here.
Surya needs pushing from her toes at almost every occasion when she’s up to do something on the ice. Guilty.

“Skating on too shallow of a curve” - Tips: watching spirals and one foot slides before elements. This is when moving on a curve or lack of such curve of is most noticeable.
Surya's one foot slides are not even a shallow curve. She slides on a straight line and even puts the other foot on the ice at times. Her spirals are straight and straight-then-turn instead of a smooth curve. She couldn't sin more on this one. Guilty.

“Taking too many short, jerky steps” - Tips: sit back and enjoy them. If a developing skater has not enough skill to fill the program with skating, the program still must be filled with something. I'm serious. It is possible to create an exciting program at every skill level and short, jerky steps can be as entertaining as long, smooth moves if well matched with music.
Surya fills her program indeed and proves that she is a born entertainer. But talking about the character of her moves, she trots and hops around showing no glide and for a PCS judge she is, of course... Guilty.

And here we have Surya Bonaly in 2912:



How about her former skating sins?

"Stiff knees" - have disappeared. Her knees move nicely straight-bent, straight-bent all the time just as soft knees should. Clean.

“Bending too far forward” - no way! Surya sits into her knees with a straight back. No other indications needed. Clean.

“Balancing on the wrong part of the blade” – Surya kindly starts her program with a demonstration of how much she can bend her ankle. Did some say that it's anatomic and sometimes ankles just don't bend? Well, after 20 years of pro skating ankles do bend quite fine as we can see. It's not a super-sharp angle between the foot and lower leg but it's plenty to manage her center of gravity all over her blade to find the right part. Should she experience any problems with speed, flow, or edge now? Of course, she doesn't. She generates speed from the knee, she glides, she maintains a running edge out of her jumps... Whatever you want! Clean.

“Incomplete pushes” - She demonstrates rather long series of crossovers but there is a noticeable difference between long strokes that work as a transition and a series of 3-4 short strokes when she pushes to accelerate. Not a super duper stroke master but not a sinner either: her pushes completely provide her with sufficient speed. Clean.

“Pushing from the toes” – She has kept them! There is a choreo sequence during which she pushes from the toe several times. But, as she has been cleared from all the above sins, I rate it as a choreographic choice and not as a necessity. Clean.

“Skating on too shallow of a curve” - Surya has a one-foot section skating on small circles and her spirals, including a back outside spiral, have nice deep curves. It's funny that she has a two-foot slide at one point but the lean towards the edge is very noticeable anyway. Clean.

“Taking too many short, jerky steps” - She doesn't need them. She can skate long steps with nice curves suitable to the music. Any PCS judge should be satisfied. Clean.

Every video that refers to Surya Bonaly as an example of bad skating should include a link to her skating later in her career. Because her progress is truly inspiring.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top