Skaters you just don't "get"
- Thread starter BravesSkateFan
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In the past I wondered why Sarah and or Sasha endured the pain of braces. I guess the pain is worth it, for escaping tasteless bashings.
Beauty is to the eye of beholder. Believing Kwan to be phsysically beautiful does not make one a rabid fan. MK was selected by the editors of People's magazine as one of the 50 most beautiful in 2000, I don't believe they are rabid fans. OTOH, hurling tasteless bashings about a skater's appearance maybe the sign of a rabid anti fan.
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In my opinion Michelle is a very elegant looking person. I would though think that US skaters for the People Magazine´s list of 50 most beautiful people are rather being chosen for their merits and popularity. LOL, the foreign skaters probably need to have the looks also (e.g. like Katia Gordeeva and Ilia Kulik).
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2004
sheilagh said:
My my isnt that a bit harsh? I guess you are wanting a response with that kind of a statement.
Well although I'm a real Kwan fan I still agree what people say about her being a tad conservative, not upping the ante, doing the same program layouts all the time etc.
I wonder what you look like.
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2003
I have a hard time saying I don't get a skater, most of the time I do get them, so to speak, but their strengths are not the ones that appeal to me the most.
SO with that garbled semi-definition, I would say the skaters I don't get are
B&S, Abt, Yags, Plush and Belbin and Agosto.
They just don't quite ring my bell.
BA
SO with that garbled semi-definition, I would say the skaters I don't get are
B&S, Abt, Yags, Plush and Belbin and Agosto.
They just don't quite ring my bell.
BA
What is exactly the definition of "don't get?" Im going on the definition that when watching them you just dont "feel" anything.
For Woman it would be Kwan. There are more, but watching her has always confused me. Here she is, skating in front of me, with all of her awards and honors and whatnot, and I am looking in the crowd for people I know. I dont understand what it is about her that I dont like / get.
Men - Alexei. I have seen the stars on ice tours, this year and last more times then I am sure all of you want to know. Last year I did enjoy "OverCome" - but the more I think about it I think that it was more for the music then anything else. As a professional I think that he is turning into another "Mr. Wiggle and Pose". I know that he is capable of more. When watching him I feel that I have seen the same program over and over and over again. Just doesnt do it for me.
*hides from Tomatoes*
Cassie
For Woman it would be Kwan. There are more, but watching her has always confused me. Here she is, skating in front of me, with all of her awards and honors and whatnot, and I am looking in the crowd for people I know. I dont understand what it is about her that I dont like / get.
Men - Alexei. I have seen the stars on ice tours, this year and last more times then I am sure all of you want to know. Last year I did enjoy "OverCome" - but the more I think about it I think that it was more for the music then anything else. As a professional I think that he is turning into another "Mr. Wiggle and Pose". I know that he is capable of more. When watching him I feel that I have seen the same program over and over and over again. Just doesnt do it for me.
*hides from Tomatoes*
Cassie
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
Cassie, I couldn't agree with you more. I love Alexei's artisitic and technical skating. I just hope people don't remember him for all the wiggles and pose. Although I am OK with the program, it is not one that I would have him do on a tour. I know it's a show and that it is there for entertainment but I think of Alexei as one of the all time best male skaters, and that is just my opinion. I have always loved watching him in competition because all those wonderful things about him come out there, not in a show.Cassie said:
Here is another person I just don't get is Kristie Y. Never understood why people thought she was great.
Dee
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I have to wonder whether Alexei is capable of doing great technical programs any more, given his hip situation. This hasn't been in the news for a while, but if the injury continues to get worse we may be seeing the last of Alexei as a performer.Cassie said:
Dee, you don't "get" Kristi Yamaguchi? Kristi Yamaguchi, who sends me to paradise just by announcing her name? Have you ever seen Bridge Over troubled Waters?
Mathman
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
Mathman said:I have to wonder whether Alexei is capable of doing great technical programs any more, given his hip situation. This hasn't been in the news for a while, but if the injury continues to get worse we may be seeing the last of Alexei as a performer.
Dee, you don't "get" Kristi Yamaguchi? Kristi Yamaguchi, who sends me to paradise just by announcing her name? Have you ever seen Bridge Over troubled Waters?
Mathman
Math, I understand what you mean about Alexei doing technical programs and his hip situation. I guess what I wanted to say is that his artistic side is wonderful. I don' t know if you have seen his Memorial program (not Overcome, which is good too) but it has few jumps but lots of passion and his interpretation is wonderful. Again, just my opinion.
Sorry Math about Kristi, I just don't get it. The good thing about our differences is that I respect your opinion and I will keep watching until maybe I do get it.
Dee
Well, I get most of the skaters in the sense that I know why people like them. But sometimes, even when I look precisely for what people love, I can't for the life of me "get" them. They are, in no particular order:
S&P
B&K
Boitano, in his (late) pro years (totally got him as an amateur)
Yagudin, (see Boitano)
Meno and Sand
Kevin VDP (I like him, but not more than any other, and I've seen him live)
Weiss
S&Z, though it's mostly him that I don't get, 'cause I think she's great
Pang and Tong, though it's mostly her that I don't get, 'cause I think HE's great
B&E
Sebestyen, yes, I know her jumps are wonderful and so are her basic skating skills, but she still leaves me cold with what I think is her lack of connection to her music
B&A, again, I really get him, I just don't really get her
Pet&Tik, though I liked them this year
And sadly, I just don't get most of the current ice dance teams.
S&P
B&K
Boitano, in his (late) pro years (totally got him as an amateur)
Yagudin, (see Boitano)
Meno and Sand
Kevin VDP (I like him, but not more than any other, and I've seen him live)
Weiss
S&Z, though it's mostly him that I don't get, 'cause I think she's great
Pang and Tong, though it's mostly her that I don't get, 'cause I think HE's great
B&E
Sebestyen, yes, I know her jumps are wonderful and so are her basic skating skills, but she still leaves me cold with what I think is her lack of connection to her music
B&A, again, I really get him, I just don't really get her
Pet&Tik, though I liked them this year
And sadly, I just don't get most of the current ice dance teams.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2003
okay, so now it gets interesting...
What's so great about this thread is how it has the potential to help us get at issues regarding the subjective nature of figure skating, if only to discuss them. So there isn't a general consensus on which skaters everyone "gets"; we're human. So, too, are judges. What's a judge who feels like, say, Cassie (left cold by MK and Alexei), to do, when everyone else is completely blown away by their artistry and Judge Cassie is fighting not to look for people in the audience? This is, IMO, why it has to be a jump contest on some level, because the artistic component of figure skating makes it impossible not to go with entirely personal tastes when giving the second mark.
But can bias due to taste, to whether Judge A or Judge F "get" a certain skater and appreciate some fundamental quality of his/her presentation, make it impossible to choose a "best"? The very subjectivity that makes it so easy for us to say, I "get" him/her, makes it just as difficult to proclaim with authority, "so-and-so is the best of all time", which is why I think that to proclaim a "greatest" skater, it has to be about medals (as apache88, I think, did well to point out on a thread I started on what makes the greatest skaters just that), about the ability to 1, stand when others fall, or fall less if it's that kind of a splatfest, and 2, to rally judges with presumably different tastes around your indisputable supremacy (which, to me, makes 5/4 splits about how difficult this is IF everyone skates clean and with energy, not always the case in great showdowns past, present, or future--as much as they might be about political voting) first and foremost, and the favorite? Well, that's up to you, but I don't think these overlap, at all, the favorite being my personal "greatest" for whatever s/he has accomplished, but usually for the skating-related abilities and strengths I see in my favorite.
Sarah
What's so great about this thread is how it has the potential to help us get at issues regarding the subjective nature of figure skating, if only to discuss them. So there isn't a general consensus on which skaters everyone "gets"; we're human. So, too, are judges. What's a judge who feels like, say, Cassie (left cold by MK and Alexei), to do, when everyone else is completely blown away by their artistry and Judge Cassie is fighting not to look for people in the audience? This is, IMO, why it has to be a jump contest on some level, because the artistic component of figure skating makes it impossible not to go with entirely personal tastes when giving the second mark.
But can bias due to taste, to whether Judge A or Judge F "get" a certain skater and appreciate some fundamental quality of his/her presentation, make it impossible to choose a "best"? The very subjectivity that makes it so easy for us to say, I "get" him/her, makes it just as difficult to proclaim with authority, "so-and-so is the best of all time", which is why I think that to proclaim a "greatest" skater, it has to be about medals (as apache88, I think, did well to point out on a thread I started on what makes the greatest skaters just that), about the ability to 1, stand when others fall, or fall less if it's that kind of a splatfest, and 2, to rally judges with presumably different tastes around your indisputable supremacy (which, to me, makes 5/4 splits about how difficult this is IF everyone skates clean and with energy, not always the case in great showdowns past, present, or future--as much as they might be about political voting) first and foremost, and the favorite? Well, that's up to you, but I don't think these overlap, at all, the favorite being my personal "greatest" for whatever s/he has accomplished, but usually for the skating-related abilities and strengths I see in my favorite.
Sarah
I guess I don't "get" B&K and S&P. Espcially the latter. In their competitive days they were like fingernails on a halkboard to me. I think I know the root of my dislike. I didn't mind either team in their early goings, but then the TV commentators got to me. I'm Canadian, so I heard endless gushing about these teams. They're faults were almost never mentioned, whereas the faults of their competitors were well laid out for the audience. No matter how good a skater is, they still have faults. I wish commentators would realize that skaters are not gods, and it can be a turn off to have them portrayed as such. I'd probably like more Canadian skaters if the commentary was fair.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Hi Sarahmistral. A very interesting post.
I think there is another way to look at it. You made the point that it is obviously not possible to agree on the question of which skaters move us to tears and which skaters leave us, in the immortal words of Cassie, "looking around to see who we know in the audience."
Therefore the only way we can rank skaters is by how many medals they have won.
But another poster (sorry, I forgot who, but the post itself stuck in my mind) made the counter point that we are not drawn to this sport by the reputation of some medal winner, nor by the athletic prowess of the latest quad man. Rather, we see a performance that is just so beautiful that it brings our hearts to our throats and transports us to a new and better world. After that, maybe we will take the trouble to learn to distinguish a Lutz from a toe-loop, or to pay attention to who won the national championship.
Yes, this is hard to quantify. Yes, there will always be debates. Yes, there will always be folks who don't get what everyone else is swooning over.
Still, there are some competitors who, performance after performance, hold the audience in the palm of their hands. Skaters who dazzle and delight. Skaters who leave the audience weeping and high-fiving each other and saying, DID YOU SEE THAT??!!!!
Why else do we watch this sport at all?
Mathman
I think there is another way to look at it. You made the point that it is obviously not possible to agree on the question of which skaters move us to tears and which skaters leave us, in the immortal words of Cassie, "looking around to see who we know in the audience."
Therefore the only way we can rank skaters is by how many medals they have won.But another poster (sorry, I forgot who, but the post itself stuck in my mind) made the counter point that we are not drawn to this sport by the reputation of some medal winner, nor by the athletic prowess of the latest quad man. Rather, we see a performance that is just so beautiful that it brings our hearts to our throats and transports us to a new and better world. After that, maybe we will take the trouble to learn to distinguish a Lutz from a toe-loop, or to pay attention to who won the national championship.
Yes, this is hard to quantify. Yes, there will always be debates. Yes, there will always be folks who don't get what everyone else is swooning over.
Still, there are some competitors who, performance after performance, hold the audience in the palm of their hands. Skaters who dazzle and delight. Skaters who leave the audience weeping and high-fiving each other and saying, DID YOU SEE THAT??!!!!
Why else do we watch this sport at all?
Mathman
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- Joined
- Aug 7, 2003
Huh??? Michelle has crooked teeth?? I've never noticed that. I guess some people will look for any imperfection in a skater (rememer the sasha lazy eye post?)
No one is perfect, including Sasha, who has a wide mouth and a chin too small to balance her high forehead. And when she talks, she is a tongue-thruster. Does this affect her skating? No.
And neither do Kwan's crooked teeth. Or Shizuka's thin lips. Or Evgeny Plushenko's prominent proboscis. Or Maria Petrova's unmanageable hair. Or Nicole Bobek's and Jamie Sale's crossed eyes. Or Irina's bandy leg. Or David Pelletier's receding hairline.
Looks don't count, the skating does.
And neither do Kwan's crooked teeth. Or Shizuka's thin lips. Or Evgeny Plushenko's prominent proboscis. Or Maria Petrova's unmanageable hair. Or Nicole Bobek's and Jamie Sale's crossed eyes. Or Irina's bandy leg. Or David Pelletier's receding hairline.
Looks don't count, the skating does.
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- Dec 28, 2003
No other reason, Mathman; no other reason. My, that was poignant--well put, as always And aside from discussing figure skating, we come to this board to hear heartfelt, sincere declarations of love for our sport that are all love. 6.0, 6.0 for your post (or 10 points on CoP ).
Good point, chuckm; now, what I REALLY don't get are the
PERSONAL ATTACKS ON SKATERS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR SKATING!!!!!!!!!
I know you were using your laundry list of nitpicks with the physical appearances of skaters to show just how senseless it is and how it really has NO place on a forum like this one. That is truly bashing a skater, and it's just plain nasty and useless if all we want to do is examine the merits of different skaters and as the sport as a whole, while sensibly critiquing the flaws. Besides, beauty IS in the eye of the beholder, last time I checked.
Rock on, my fellow positive posters!
Sarah
And aside from discussing figure skating, we come to this board to hear heartfelt, sincere declarations of love for our sport that are all love. 6.0, 6.0 for your post (or 10 points on CoP ).Good point, chuckm; now, what I REALLY don't get are the
PERSONAL ATTACKS ON SKATERS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR SKATING!!!!!!!!!
I know you were using your laundry list of nitpicks with the physical appearances of skaters to show just how senseless it is and how it really has NO place on a forum like this one. That is truly bashing a skater, and it's just plain nasty and useless if all we want to do is examine the merits of different skaters and as the sport as a whole, while sensibly critiquing the flaws. Besides, beauty IS in the eye of the beholder, last time I checked.
Rock on, my fellow positive posters!
Sarah
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2003
I know the laundry list was to make a point but its better to keep stuff like that to yourself lest it start a bashfest here which I don't think anyone wants especially in the offseason. Just a thought for future reference. 
That said, my list includes Totmianana & Marinin (who I liked when I saw them in Worlds 2001 but I haven't gotten them ever since for some reason), Pang & Tong, Zhang & Zhang, Miki Ando, Emanual Sandhu, Michael Weiss, and Evgeny Plushenko (although I do appreciate him live, just not as much on TV). I am sure there are others but these are the first ones that popped into my mind for this. Everyone has such interesting choices though. Its fascinating to read everyone's point of view on this subject.
That said, my list includes Totmianana & Marinin (who I liked when I saw them in Worlds 2001 but I haven't gotten them ever since for some reason), Pang & Tong, Zhang & Zhang, Miki Ando, Emanual Sandhu, Michael Weiss, and Evgeny Plushenko (although I do appreciate him live, just not as much on TV). I am sure there are others but these are the first ones that popped into my mind for this. Everyone has such interesting choices though. Its fascinating to read everyone's point of view on this subject.
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