Skating as an acrobatic/contorionist event | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Skating as an acrobatic/contorionist event

It's great the women are trying the tougher spins and spirals, but unless the positions are mastered, please don't try them! That's why Michelle only did the "easy" spiral (according to satorare--who has satorated us with his/her opinions!)--she isn't Nathalie Krieg!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HCFJR2mBdKA

But then again, watching those skaters contort themselves the way she does is just scary--none of them can match her quality (even if she barely lands jumps).
 
2001 Worlds FS

Kwan
3Lo
3T+3T
3Lz+2T
3S
3F
2A

Slutskaya
3Lz
3S+3Lo+2T
3Lz+3Lo(two foot)+2T
3F
2A
3T

In this event, Slutskaya was the first in SP and lost the gold with only one "mistake" (such a thing never happens under CoP).
I assume Kwan's lethal "3T-3T" must worth more than two 3-3s of Slutskaya.
And if someone says "Kwan's great presentation beated Slutskaya", I must give a big laugh. You'd better say "Kwan's great political backing beated Slutskaya".
 
And if someone says "Kwan's great presentation beated Slutskaya", I must give a big laugh.

Then please keep on laughing. About 4 minutes of laughing should do the trick (*note* no breathing allowed while you laugh). Kwan's program was much more complex and she skated with more freedom than Slutskaya did.

Also, you failed to mention Kwan's second Triple Lutz in the later part of the program. She did 7 Triples total.

~Z
 
I'm all for a separate contest for the contortionists. Why not? They could even continue in figure skatin but must leave out anything deemed contortionist.

World's Skating Contortionist Championship followed by the World's Skating Barrel Jumping Championship Just think: A whole afternoon of Wows.

One question why do so many fans of figure skating equate contortion with flexible? They are distinctly different. Someone check out the definitions.

Can you imagine someone saying "You need to be more contortion before making that decision".

Joe
 
Of course, Kwan has no chance against Mao (or even Meissner) under the CoP.
What a strange question to be so obsessed about. Michelle never competed against Mao and never will. Any competition between them exists only in the minds of their fans.

But I do think there are a lot of parallels between Mao's and Michelle's careers. They both started out as child prodigies in jumping skills (both were called "jumping beans"). Both won the world junior championship at an early age, largely on the strength of their jumps. Both had a breakout season as young teens when the artistic side of their skating started to catch up with the tech (Mao won the senior Grand Prix final last year and Michelle won the world championship at 15). Both are widely popular in their own countries, Mao being the reigning national champion and Michelle retiring with nine U.S. titles.

No one knows the future, but maybe Mao will end up with five world championships, too, before she is done. :clap:
 
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2001 Worlds FS

Kwan
3Lo
3T+3T
3Lz+2T
3S
3F
2A

Slutskaya
3Lz
3S+3Lo+2T
3Lz+3Lo(two foot)+2T
3F
2A
3T

In this event, Slutskaya was the first in SP and lost the gold with only one "mistake" (such a thing never happens under CoP).
I assume Kwan's lethal "3T-3T" must worth more than two 3-3s of Slutskaya.
And if someone says "Kwan's great presentation beated Slutskaya", I must give a big laugh. You'd better say "Kwan's great political backing beated Slutskaya".


Did you purposefully miss out the second triple lutz in Kwan's program? Kwan landed 7 clean triples to Slutskaya's six clean triples. Regardless most judges gave slutskaya the technical nod with the presentation mark going to Kwan and a majority giving Kwan the title.

Quite why your sour grapes reharsh of 2001 worlds is relevant to this particular thread i don't know!

Ant
 
"classic bielmann-free layback spins"
"classical skating consisting of elegance and deep edges"

Why don't you just say "I like Kwan."

I strongly believe difficulty should be rewarded accordingly.
Difficulty can be judged objectiely, but "elegance" is not.
Kwan can't win under the new system, because CoP is more objective and "fair".

Acutally the first skater that leapt to my mind regarding the "classic Biellmann free layback" was the beautiful spin forever, text book position of Lucinda Ruh.

Ant
 
I'm all for a separate contest for the contortionists. Why not? They could even continue in figure skatin but must leave out anything deemed contortionist.
Yah, opinion, I know. It is fine and all that but I don't understand the apprehension to this being additional to the routines? Yes people whine about the Bielmann and this could be for the same reasons, but where do you go? I have been posing that question and no one really gives an answer except comparing to something or someone has already done. SO what do you guys want? Besides saying "so and so did this and it was creative / different" well what about now, and what is a GOOD reason not to have contortionistic aspects to skating positions? This injury thing is so speculation and rare cases that I have seen exactly the opposite in persons capable of contortionistic positions.

If Shi Chan was poking her head out from between her legs during her Ina, I could see the comment of contortionists, same with Caroline. I hear over exaggerative remarks to skaters looking to make their element that much more impressive and exhibit more skill necessary WHILE SKATING. I personally find it a form of "evolution" that could generate more interest and appreciation of FS. A little sacrifice of these subjective to personal preferance elements counting, meaning more people involved on all levels.... not a bad thing IMO.


One question why do so many fans of figure skating equate contortion with flexible? They are distinctly different. Someone check out the definitions.
On the first thought it does seem like it would equate. But looking into what it really is to be deemed Contortionisum - I think my Shi-chan example says it, and for that matter the Bielmann, Charlotte and Candlestick variations, etc...

But look into it as how it is presented in FS, which would be performances... pairs is all contortionistic?

Referance.com said:
Types of performances

Like other visual arts, a contortion performance can convey any of several emotions, depending on the choreography and costumes that are chosen, as well as the personality and acting skills of the performer. Performers might choose a style that is beautiful, athletic, weird, shocking, sensual, erotic or humorous, and each has fans that prefer that particular style, sometimes to the exclusion of other styles.
•An adagio act is a slow, acrobatic dance in which the male partner lifts and carries the female partner as she performs splits and other flexible poses.


Myth: You are either born a contortionist or you're not. — Muscle flexibility can be acquired with persistent training, as long as the shape of the bones in the joint do not limit the range of motion. There are a relatively small number of professional performers who claim they were not unusually flexible before undergoing years of intense training. Those who have naturally flexible joints, however, start out with an advantage, both in knowing that they have an aptitude for contortion, and the amount of flexibility they can eventually achieve.

Myth: Most contortionists have Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. — In reality, few contortionists have the condition. EDS is genetic, considered rare, and caused by defective collagen production. One result of this defective collagen production is loose, stretchy ligaments. (Ligaments hold the joints in place.) Since individuals with EDS have stretchy ligaments, they tend to be more flexible than the general population. In fact, some - but not all - individuals with EDS exhibit extreme flexibility. Another feature of EDS is spontaneous joint dislocations. The dislocations are caused by the ligaments' inability to hold the joints in place due to their stretchy nature. Dislocations can also be performed at will by some, possibly even many, individuals with the condition.

Myth: Women are more apt to be contortionists than men. — Pictures of contortionists throughout history and around the world, taken as a whole, show nearly equal numbers of males and females. Western contortionists in the late 19th century were mostly men, just as extreme flexibility in modern India is practiced mostly by men. Also, medical studies show that nearly equal numbers of hypermobile males and females are found when the trait runs in the family. Therefore, the fact that most contortionists in Western cultures today are female is simply a result of the current cultural preference.

Anhoo, there are a few "blurps" from http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Contortion
 
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Some skaters are more flexible than others and some more acrobatic than others and if they are rewarded points due to that - why not? I don't think it has negative impact. - it's just how the sport is evolving. Nowadays the majority of the ladies can do the Bielmann spin and the majority of the Senior Men have quads in their programs.

Just like all athletes who sacrifice their bodies for other sports - injury and safety issues are always a concern and wear and tear on their bodies may effect them later on in life. If too many skaters are injured due to a certain element, then I would think the ISU would address the issue by either banning the element outright or not award any points for it.
 
Some skaters are more flexible than others and some more acrobatic than others and if they are rewarded points due to that - why not? I don't think it has negative impact. - it's just how the sport is evolving. Nowadays the majority of the ladies can do the Bielmann spin and the majority of the Senior Men have quads in their programs.
Excellent point, Saltypig - I like that you are distinguishing the two culprits: Flexibility and acrobatics. They are different terms when discussing the movements of the body (flexibility) and the acrobatics (contortionism)
I would prefer if the posters were to say: so and so has much better acrobatics in her skating than wat'shername. because that's what so and so is doing - acrobatics. Flexibility example would be Kurt Browning who can maneuver his body to those remarkable edges that makes him so great.

Next time one watches a baseball game, watch the player who jumps into air to catch a ball going over his head.while maneuvering his body in a flexible way. Every sportsman has flexibility. It's a must. If we see a tennis player doing Arabian Cartwheels before hitting the ball in his court, well you acrobatic lovers have a point.

And don't give me that thing about using blades makes it more difficult than doing acrobatics on a trapeze way up in the air in Cirque du Soleil, and btw, that is not a sport. It's a dance form.

Should the Acrobatic Skater get more points than the Flexible Skater? Pick your choice. It's whatever you like. Maybe the classic lovers will joint the throngs of fans that have left figure skating. Maybe.....

Joe
 
Acrobatics connotes gymanstic-like feats, such as tumbling, bodily inversion, aerial body maneuvers etc.

Michael Weiss's Tornado and Surya Bonaly's beauuuuutiful backflip into triple Salchow= acrobatics.

Cohen's 180 arabesque and Arakawa's Ina Bauer= flexibility.

In my opnion bring on the flexible elements of figure skating, the sport is developing and evolving. Some skaters can naturally rotate quicker in the air and thus have an easier time completing triples and quads eg. goebel circa 2002, Asada. Some skaters for whatever reason have more spring in their feet and can pull off huuuuge jumps eg. Ito, Sebesteyen, Volchkova, Kulik, Plushenko. I certainly think all these skaters should be rewarded for pushing the sport in terms of the amplitude of all their feats.

I was too annoyed by Biellmania these past two seasons, maybe COP should have harsher penalties for skaters who cannot master these positions. So maybe then the only Biellman positions that could avoid a negative GOE would look something like Denise Biellman's, Krieg's, Ruh's, Zhang's, Maxwell's, etc. Maybe even not upgrading their levels would also be a good idea.
 
It's great the women are trying the tougher spins and spirals, but unless the positions are mastered, please don't try them! That's why Michelle only did the "easy" spiral--she isn't Nathalie Krieg!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HCFJR2mBdKA

But then again, watching those skaters contort themselves the way she does is just scary--none of them can match her quality (even if she barely lands jumps).

Wow, I have watched this young lady for the first time. Thank you for posting. She had great spins. I thought that one of the positions she did looks like Caroline's "Pearl" position :)

And yes, I see your point. If trying an unmastered quad is a costly gamble in terms of getting points, unmastered difficult spins and spirals would be so as well.
 
Wow, I have watched this young lady for the first time. Thank you for posting. She had great spins. I thought that one of the positions she did looks like Caroline's "Pearl" position :)

And yes, I see your point. If trying an unmastered quad is a costly gamble in terms of getting points, unmastered difficult spins and spirals would be so as well.

Krieg wasn't only a brilliant spinner, but her footwork was also quick and dazzling. She had a real spark and you could see she definitely connected with the audience. Gotta love the Swiss:love:
 
Rather than banning or regulating anything, I vote that the musicality of a skater is valued higher than is currently the case.
Meaning that whatever they do, from 'deep edges' to quintuple over the shoulder twice around the kneecap somersaults backwards, it's all good as long as it FITS with the music.
As opposed to the jumping fests completely disconnected from the background muzak that most of them do now.
 
But it hasn't changed at all! If a skater is pretty it is still an advantage. Is Mao ugly??? Is Yu Na ugly??? Is Kimmie ugly?? Are Caro, Miki, Alissa, Megan, Kiira, Susanna, Sarah ugly?? Are they sloppy??
They are all like models. The way they prepare their faces and dresses.

The "only" one that isn't really pretty and is sloppy was heavily criticized in all FS forums and she doesn't have the favors of the judges at all. You all know who I'm talking about.

Right or wrong, but beauty in FS still counts!!

Are you referring to Mira Leung? I agree. Pretty still helps out a lot, however, I wouldn't call them "models". To be a model, you have to be over 5'8". Skaters tend to be short, short, short! And models have very well defined facial features. Not all pretty skaters have the chiseled cheek bones, small chin, small nose, and high forehead that models have, but they do know how to package themselves.
 
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Are you referring to Mira Leung? I agree. Pretty still helps out a lot, however, I wouldn't call them "models". To be a model, you have to be over 5'8". Skaters tend to be short, short, short! And models have very well defined facial features. Not all pretty skaters have the chiseled cheek bones, small chin, small nose, and high forehead that models have, but they do know how to package themselves.

Yes I was referring to Mira.
I either would not call them models in that sense. I wanted to express the fact that they prepare themselves as models. Dresses, make up, hair... We use the term model in a large meaning, especially to adress a pretty girl who takes care of her look (regardless of height and facial attributes). Maybe in the USA you don't use that term. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
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In terms of risks for injuries, the 'extreme' moves are not really dangerous for skaters who have the greatest flexibility.

I think the one with the greatest flexibility will be the less likely to tear a muscle whereas someone who never stretches will be more likely to do so. However, there are other injuries that the one with the greatest flexibility can get later in life such as chronic back pain or a hip joint that is more susceptible to osteoarthritis earlier in life. I think one problem with parents is that they don't have the knowledge of the potential long term damage that is involved.
 
This injury thing is so speculation and rare cases that I have seen exactly the opposite in persons capable of contortionistic positions.

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Actually, my physio has seen many MANY former gymnasts and dancers who have reached their thirties and forties appearing in the clinic for chronic joint pain related to overlax ligaments and wear and tear on their joints. This is what I mean...parents, people, coaches, or whoever who have no professional knowledge or experience in mobility have no idea about the damage.

I think it's one thing to know about the risks involved and then make a decision to be involved with that knowledge. It's a whole different ball park when you become involved without any idea of the possible consequences. I think that's a bit disturbing for me.
 
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However, there are other injuries that the one with the greatest flexibility can get later in life such as chronic back pain or a hip joint that is more susceptible to osteoarthritis earlier in life. I think one problem with parents is that they don't have the knowledge of the potential long term damage that is involved.

Even skaters who are flexible enough to comfortably do the biellman position are at risk of long-term chronic back/hip pain problem? Oh, I didn't know that. Then I hope that flexible skaters like Caroline and Sasha wouldn't suffer from any problems in future....
 
Acrobatics connotes gymanstic-like feats, such as tumbling, bodily inversion, aerial body maneuvers etc.

Michael Weiss's Tornado and Surya Bonaly's beauuuuutiful backflip into triple Salchow= acrobatics.

Cohen's 180 arabesque and Arakawa's Ina Bauer= flexibility.

I was wondering, why did the powers that be ban the backflip in competition? Are there any other "elements" that are banned?
 
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