Skating as an acrobatic/contorionist event

[gkelly]

I was wondering, why did the powers that be ban the backflip in competition?

My understanding is, because 1) it's a gymnastics move that has little or nothing to do with the use of blades on ice, and 2) it's dangerous if performed unsuccessfully, and if it were allowed and rewarded skaters would be putting it in their programs without necessarily being able to pull it off consistently and some would be getting seriously hurt in the process

Are there any other "elements" that are banned?

Pair moves such as Detroiters and headbangers, for similar reasons.

 

[passion]

Even skaters who are flexible enough to comfortably do the biellman position are at risk of long-term chronic back/hip pain problem? Oh, I didn't know that. Then I hope that flexible skaters like Caroline and Sasha wouldn't suffer from any problems in future....

Yes. Possibly. The word here is HIGH RISK. It doesn't mean it will happen for sure, but they are at risk. What is very disturbing is when a person can walk their hands up their legs from a back arch on the ground so that the whole back is folded in half (which is what Zhang can do). The body was not designed to do that. Ligaments were made for a reason. When joints become too instable due to overlax ligaments there is more grinding between the joint surfaces causing faster wear and tear on the joint. Ligaments also provide a protective function as well. Anyone who can voluntarily dislocate their joint...not a healthy sign at all.

I'm talking about contortionism here. Flexibility is still a very good thing, but I think almost all skaters are flexibile. Flexibility can protect against tearing a muscle. Flexibility can also improve the strength of contraction in a muscle by lengthening the muscle fibers.

 

[passion]

My understanding is, because 1) it's a gymnastics move that has little or nothing to do with the use of blades on ice, and 2) it's dangerous if performed unsuccessfully, and if it were allowed and rewarded skaters would be putting it in their programs without necessarily being able to pull it off consistently and some would be getting seriously hurt in the process



Pair moves such as Detroiters and headbangers, for similar reasons.

What's a headbanger and Detroiter?

 

[morninglight]

Yes. Possibly. The word here is HIGH RISK. It doesn't mean it will happen for sure, but they are at risk. What is very disturbing is when a person can walk their hands up their legs from a back arch on the ground so that the whole back is folded in half (which is what Zhang can do). The body was not designed to do that. Ligaments were made for a reason. When joints become too instable due to overlax ligaments there is more grinding between the joint surfaces causing faster wear and tear on the joint. Ligaments also provide a protective function as well. Anyone who can voluntarily dislocate their joint...not a healthy sign at all.

I'm talking about contortionism here. Flexibility is still a very good thing, but I think almost all skaters are flexibile. Flexibility can protect against tearing a muscle. Flexibility can also improve the strength of contraction in a muscle by lengthening the muscle fibers.

Thank you for your detailed explanations. I appreciate it.

The clinical knowledge about potential long-term risks seems to be very important information to be disseminated within the figure-skating communities.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Acrobatics connotes gymanstic-like feats, such as tumbling, bodily inversion, aerial body maneuvers etc.

In my opnion bring on the flexible elements of figure skating, the sport is developing and evolving. .

I think you are using the term flexible as an acrobatic move. What happens if we start seeing 'Walk Overs'? Arabian Cartwheels? Forward Flips?, which are part and parcel of acrobatics where quite a bit of limberness is utmost required. Many of these acrobatic tricks on ice have been around before you were born. If a pro ice skater can do them, then so can the eligibles, so let the sport develop and evolve as the pro show skaters had it.

IMO, I think you will be getting your wish, and a new show featuring death defying ice skating tricks will evolve into Las Vegas and compete with Cirque du Soleil.

As for classical skating, let's just bury it, because only a few skaters will be up to all that contortionism. The World Championship will have 12 (two groups) competitors showing off these acrobatic tricks. The winner may well be publicized for a feature in Las Vegas.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Ballet v. Acrobatics

Why do so many figure skating fans have no problem saying that so&so is so balletic but won't dare to say she is so acrobatic? Do you think it's embarrasing to say a skater has better acrobatic tricks? than say the skater has beautiful line?

Joe

 

[doubleaxel]

I thought that one look at Yu-na Kim was enough to be convinced that one can be a spectacular, brilliant skater without any kind of 180-degree spiral or whatsoever. . .

 

[einna]

As far as I know, younger body tends to be more flexible and then have a tendency to lose some of the flexiblity as they grow old. Of course, many retain their flexibility. When I watched Mao Asada on 2005 Junior Worlds, she had a completely flat back on her layback spin and she doesn't do a completely flat back layback spin anymore.

 

[gkelly]

What's a headbanger and Detroiter?

Headbanger (also called bounce spin)
Man spins around in place on two feet, holding the lady by her ankle(s), and raises and lowers his arms so that her head and arms, which are furthest away from his body, go up and down, almost hitting the ice at the lowest points

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4rN4HEzrmc
(end of program)

Detroiter
Man spins in place on two feet lifting the lady over his head

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMAlV5cpvqM
(Detroiter at end of program, followed by an upside-down carry spin that would also be illegal in competition)

Variations on both toward the end
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9488R61trY

They're common in pair exhibitions and ice shows, especially by "adagio pairs" that perform on very small ice surfaces.

 

[Vodka Shot]

I'm having a hard time understanding the danger in the biellmann and layback? If these moves are that dangerous I know a few yoga instructors in their 40's that should be in a wheelchair by now. I haven't seen anything on the ice that I haven't seen variations of in yoga. My mom's 46 and has been able to do a biellmann like move in yoga since college.....no back surgery yet.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

As far as I know, younger body tends to be more flexible and then have a tendency to lose some of the flexiblity as they grow old. Of course, many retain their flexibility. When I watched Mao Asada on 2005 Junior Worlds, she had a completely flat back on her layback spin and she doesn't do a completely flat back layback spin anymore.

And what do you have with that so-call more flexibuility?

What if she were to wrap it around her neck. Would that make it all that more exciting and worthy of more points than a beautiful lyrical spiral.

Flexibility is what ALL athletes have. How much flexibility to me is a so what. From what you say, then only little girls should be winners in a championship. Am I correct? Any lady over 18 should hang up her skates because she no longer can put her foot above her head.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Why do so many figure skating fans have no problem saying that so&so is so balletic but won't dare to say she is so acrobatic? Do you think it's embarrasing to say a skater has better acrobatic tricks? than say the skater has beautiful line?

Historically, I think this has been the case.

Surya Bonaly is acrobatic, Yuka Sato is, well, not exaclty balletic, but she has beautiful edges and lovely positions. Skating purists rave about Sato and dismiss Bonaly as a non-artist.

But that was then; now we have the CoP.

 

[einna]

And what do you have with that so-call more flexibuility?

What if she were to wrap it around her neck. Would that make it all that more exciting and worthy of more points than a beautiful lyrical spiral.

Flexibility is what ALL athletes have. How much flexibility to me is a so what. From what you say, then only little girls should be winners in a championship. Am I correct? Any lady over 18 should hang up her skates because she no longer can put her foot above her head.

Joe

Hi joe. I think you're overreacting. I never said that I am in favor of all the extra flexibility that we are seeing right now. The first post of the thread said that most of the flexible moves are being done by the junior (younger) skaters. What I said was just an explanation that people tend to be more flexible when they're younger and lose some of it when they're older.
Never did I imply that it was better when Mao was doing a completely flat back layback spin. I actually liked her layback spin now that in her junior years. She just can't hold the positions longer to count.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Hi joe. I think you're overreacting. I never said that I am in favor of all the extra flexibility that we are seeing right now. The first post of the thread said that most of the flexible moves are being done by the junior (younger) skaters. What I said was just an explanation that people tend to be more flexible when they're younger and lose some of it when they're older.
Never did I imply that it was better when Mao was doing a completely flat back layback spin. I actually liked her layback spin now that in her junior years. She just can't hold the positions longer to count.

You're absolutely right, einna. I do overreact when I read so much praise for what some fans view as the ultimate force behind the positions in figure skating. I apologize for the overreaction.

However, other than the end result to be a beautiful trick or a garrish trick.depending on how one sees this 'acrobatic' feat, it is important to note that this 'flexibility' comes with the children who work on it at an early age and continually do so. It has nothing to do with actual skating. I know some fans think the higher the free leg in a spiral the more difficult it is to execute. However, a skater who has secure edges (like Kwan) is capable of handling such tricks because of the edges which do happen to be part of actual skating.

The other night I watched a ballerina (being partnered) doing I pirrouettes. The difference I saw in 'flexibility' was that she didn't use her hands to drag the foot up to her head. It went up to her head by muscle control only. That's a wow for me.

Again,how much credit should be judged in figure skating? I think if you like it give it a +!, 2 or 3. It in itself is not an element.

Joe

 

[Zuranthium]

Well, acrobatics during shows can certainly be appealing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvxx80AE8bE&mode=related&search=



~Z

 

[passion]

Well, acrobatics during shows can certainly be appealing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvxx80AE8bE&mode=related&search=



~Z

I'd hate to think if he'd fall on his head. Ouch!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Should get him another gold medal because it seems that is where figure skating is going. Figure Skating (the art form) must borrow from other art forms because in itself there is no art.

 

[SeaniBu]

Should get him another gold medal because it seems that is where figure skating is going. Figure Skating (the art form) must borrow from other art forms because in itself there is no art.

What! I think I understand what you are saying, but it seems like a "little off the deep end" again. - "... in itself there is no art." ITD

Art is a part of the sport since Sonia at least - I just don't understand how some FS fans can be harder to please then any other sport IMO. Change because people are asking for new and creative, then ..... ANd look at the wide differing definitions of art that people have.

Do you remember "Cold Mountain?" Renee's speech about " they ask for the rain, then stand in it and complain about it raining." - very loose quote.

It seems like that at times. I am starting to understand the troubles the "federations," coaches, choreographers, skaters, etc.. meet. I would think the amount of apprehension to a "new style" or anything some want calling it "creative," yet just a parallel example to past..., and yet that was nothing "creative" there really - just bringing other aspects of entertainment to FS that they may not have been trying yet. So where are these skaters supposed to "reach in the handbag" like prior skaters could do and find something new? Something someone else hasn't grabbed already???? This either limits the "creativity attempts" or they just say "screw the talk" and go for it full force and maybe get exaggerated the opposite direction. *shrugs*

I would so love to hear a comment of "something new and different," opposed to the "they should do what he did back..." it is not new anymore now.

I like most of these "bendy" moves, and it shows the incredible nature of the way the human body is, to take it a step further, add something new to a preexisting element is creativity on a scale. WHat else can they do that has a new spin? And still be within the confined of "legal programme elements." ????

I would just LOVE to hear "programme acceptable" suggestions, rather than examples of past skaters and how often "I don't like" and the ludic comments are simple complaints and not helpful IMO.

This is exactly (one of the reasons) why I don't feel "interpretation" is a "markable" element of FS. Too subjective to relativity. It continues to cause the "doubt of integrity to score." IMO

They are skating, if it is good, should have no relevance on whether it is "liked" IMO

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Again we are not on the same wavelength.

However, if you like the acrobatic approach to figure skating, then bring on the turn of the 20th century vaudeville show. If it is high art for you, so be it. It just aint for me.

There is nothing in figure skating except the glide on the ice that is original art form. I have spoken. Even that, in ballet it's call glissade.

Joe

 

[SeaniBu]

Ya, to the "wavelength."

...then bring on the turn of the 20th century vaudeville show.

You know that is not what I am talking about, the over exaggeration to try and make what you don't like something ridiculous as well.?.
JMO there has been ASPECTS of "flexibility exhibition" in FS for sometime now. So what is it, if it can't be both art and athletics?
And equally?
Wasn't figure skating seen as a sport requiring extreme flexibility, maybe to the point were fans would "ooh and ahh" at the ability to be so flexible? So it is all ready a part of it but now people need to be more flexible than in the past for it to be "impressive / athletic in nature," now society is upping the flexibility scale? Just like jumps are being "upped" as well I 'spose. ???

Embrace evolution and remember the past. JMO

I do see the point of possibly loosing some artistic beauty and the simple things can be equally moving in experience, but think of that more as something the skater needs to be free to express individualism and the way they express art. And it could be when they do something that is "harder" to do for them and push their own boundaries "athletically" they feel more of an athlete. Maybe Caroline feels stronger, better, more powerful in sports competition if she pushes as far as she can, be that further in one area than another skater??? so be it, and IMO that athletic push holds it's own beauty as well. Shi-chan "feels" the Ina B in that way???? It is equally as beautiful in expression regardless of viewers personal preference.

Their expression, their own "individual beauties"