Sonia Bianchetti's suggested changes

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Oh, so there's a right and wrong time to speak the truth? The place of jumps now overshadows the points and the effect of everything else in a skater's program. What some are calling Hanyu's choreography is a bit of smooth footwork to set up the next 16 point jump. It would be interesting to measure how much of the 4.5 minutes is devoted to jumps - the approach, the jump and the recovery. Hanyu is just the beginning. Centralized federations are going to exploit this no-cieling rule for jumps. They will find kids with extrodinary verticle jumping abilities and start pushing 4A's, etc. I think the Chinese federation picked Jin not because of his potential as a complete skater. They picked him for the 19 point elements. If something isn't done to address the scoring imbalance of jumps vs. other elements and the lack of accountabililty in PCS the sport is finished.

I don't really see how that was much different from before, especially during the jump crazy days of the post-figures 1990s 6.0 era. Except there was a lot less skating going on, way more crossovers, less great footwork, and more posing on two feet a lot of the time with some disjointed highlight move that was made to wow rather than be in-character. I'm speaking generally, of course.

 

[MaxSwagg]

There needs to be a set number of elements since this system is based in cumulative points. I think the number of jumps for the men is fine but I also could agree with taking one jumping pass out. I feel like the men (and especially the PAIRS) are doing too much, the programs are chocked full of required elements that there's no time to just skate. The choreographic sequences are a joke (again, especially in pairs free skates) and I would not complain with negating a jumping pass and extending the ChSq (or letting men do a second step sequence and ladies a spiral sequence (I SO miss a good spiral) if they wanted). I hate regulations in the free skate but with this system, that's just how it is and concerning the long-term health of the skaters, I could maybe also agree to limiting the number of quads to three. Stephane also brought up a great point about getting rid of the requirement levels as well (I think there's too many anyway, there really needs to be effectively seven levels???).

Also agree with her that jumps and throws that result in a fall should get zero points. I think the above poster was right in that even with the splatfests, men's figure skating has never been better with the amount of technical and artistic/choreographic content they're including in their programs. GPF may have been a rare gem of magnificent skates but if Worlds turns out to be another splatfest, at least we'll have GPF.

Anywho, the debate will never end and given that it's been over 10 years since IJS, there have been no major changes or tweaks so I doubt there will be anytime soon (even though there needs to be). Love her reviews.

 

[yellowricenoodle]

Oh, so there's a right and wrong time to speak the truth? The place of jumps now overshadows the points and the effect of everything else in a skater's program. What some are calling Hanyu's choreography is a bit of smooth footwork to set up the next 16 point jump. It would be interesting to measure how much of the 4.5 minutes is devoted to jumps - the approach, the jump and the recovery. Hanyu is just the beginning. Centralized federations are going to exploit this no-cieling rule for jumps. They will find kids with extrodinary verticle jumping abilities and start pushing 4A's, etc. I think the Chinese federation picked Jin not because of his potential as a complete skater. They picked him for the 19 point elements. If something isn't done to address the scoring imbalance of jumps vs. other elements and the lack of accountabililty in PCS the sport is finished.

I have a different opinion on this. I think it's pretty interesting to have Jin in the field. Though you are right to point out that he is beating a lot of other senior skaters with his imbalance TES and PCS, but that's actually not to his advantage because he'll never top complete skaters. What the current judging system has done, is forcing him to improve his PCS. He also mentioned that in his post GPF interview that he'll have to work on it. It motivates him to be complete skater! Isn't that great to hear? Additionally, I think the current system has made his presence to put pressure on the rest of the field, which is actually bringing the sports forward!! Certainly we don't want Jin to win with poor presentation. We don't want the sport to be lead by a skater who is only good one aspect and not both. And remember Patrick's dominance in figure skating for the 3 years up to Olympics with his controversial win? That was what actually killing the sport. However, his lopsided strength actually gave rise to people like Hanyu and Javier who improved their PCS tremendously. Jin's presence in the sports now, to me, is just like Patrick's presence back then and maybe a little less harmful to the sport, because we now have skaters who are actually good BOTH technically and artistically so he will never dominate unless he improves his TES. I think with the current weightage between TES and PCS in the judging system, (though we can nitpick a lot on the criteria in the component scores but let's not get into that), it actually makes the sports so much more exciting!!

Yes, federations are going to look for more people with extraordinary jumping ability like Jin, but that's exactly what we want to see in sports!!! We want to see people to with great talent to come in and fire up the ice field. I think it has the opposite effect of what you mentioned. It is not killing the sport because for such skater to win, the current rules require them to have good representation so they will have to improve in PCS, and for the other skaters, they will have to improve their TES. That's pushing the sports to another level! That's actually reviving the sports instead!

 

[lecorbusier]

I guess we've somehow forgot that skaters like Weiss and Goebel existed before IJS.......

 

[HanDomi]

I guess we've somehow forgot that skaters like Weiss and Goebel existed before IJS.......

I am not getting all that talk about jumps. Jumps were even more important in the 2000 era, where skaters were just going from jump to jump, frontloading programs, 0 transitions. Now the technical stuff is higher, but also skaters like Hanyu are pushing this stuff to be connected with choreography, like spread eagle -4s-spread eagle, that we could just dreamed of 10 years ago

 

[gkelly]

There are always going to be some well-skated events and some poorly skated events, regardless of the rules or scoring system.

It would be possible to make rules that encourage cleaner low-risk programs, but that will not satisfy the sports fans who want to see athletes pushing the limits.

And even if you make rules that require or encourage skaters to limit their difficulty, they will still have bad days sometimes.

 

[Violet Bliss]

There are always going to be some well-skated events and some poorly skated events, regardless of the rules or scoring system.

It would be possible to make rules that encourage cleaner low-risk programs, but that will not satisfy the sports fans who want to see athletes pushing the limits.

And even if you make rules that require or encourage skaters to limit their difficulty, they will still have bad days sometimes.

ITA.

How many world champions at practice get to become a World Champion? There is never ever a guarantee for a perfect performance at whatever level within an athlete's abilities. How can someone become a Champion if they do not attempt their maximum capabilities at competitions? There are always going to be risks and inevitable failures and ugly moments along the way to the ideal and ultimate accomplishment.

Skaters have always tried to and many succeed at beauty at higher and higher technical levels. History will continue on the same path because no athletes want to go back to a lower level in the past. The issue is not to limit the technical advancements but to equalize the importance of the artistic aspects and have holistic valuation of figure skating.

 

[karlowens2]

I have a different opinion on this. I think it's pretty interesting to have Jin in the field. Though you are right to point out that he is beating a lot of other senior skaters with his imbalance TES and PCS, but that's actually not to his advantage because he'll never top complete skaters. What the current judging system has done, is forcing him to improve his PCS. He also mentioned that in his post GPF interview that he'll have to work on it. It motivates him to be complete skater! Isn't that great to hear? Additionally, I think the current system has made his presence to put pressure on the rest of the field, which is actually bringing the sports forward!! Certainly we don't want Jin to win with poor presentation. We don't want the sport to be lead by a skater who is only good one aspect and not both. And remember Patrick's dominance in figure skating for the 3 years up to Olympics with his controversial win? That was what actually killing the sport. However, his lopsided strength actually gave rise to people like Hanyu and Javier who improved their PCS tremendously. Jin's presence in the sports now, to me, is just like Patrick's presence back then and maybe a little less harmful to the sport, because we now have skaters who are actually good BOTH technically and artistically so he will never dominate unless he improves his TES. I think with the current weightage between TES and PCS in the judging system, (though we can nitpick a lot on the criteria in the component scores but let's not get into that), it actually makes the sports so much more exciting!!

Yes, federations are going to look for more people with extraordinary jumping ability like Jin, but that's exactly what we want to see in sports!!! We want to see people to with great talent to come in and fire up the ice field. I think it has the opposite effect of what you mentioned. It is not killing the sport because for such skater to win, the current rules require them to have good representation so they will have to improve in PCS, and for the other skaters, they will have to improve their TES. That's pushing the sports to another level! That's actually reviving the sports instead!

We dissagree on much but I do appreciate your historical perspective. For the really young fans the unique place of artistry in this sport must seem a little strange. I do remember Chen being held up in his later competitions, but I don't think it was killing th sport. As I recall he was as technical as anyone at that time. Yes? In 2012, 2013 who had more difficult jump elements than him? II don't thjinki he was coasting purely on PCS. His 2013 Bompaard point score stood for quite a while.

Back to Jim and these super jumpers. I say if Jin or his ilk improve their PCS it doesn't really matter much. Say, you are a very good skater and your individual PCS areas average 7.5. In one year you raise three of these to 9.0. I think anyone would agree that wojld be a good improvement in one year. All you are talking about is 4.5 points. In a world of 16-20 point jumps 4.5 points are not going to matter much.

Yes, what Hanyu did was amazing. But, so much jumping is not really exiciting to me. What used to impress m more was a guy like Brian Boitano. He had all these beautiful positions, edges, etc. His jumps were an extension of his great skating skills. Perfectly straight in the air, the landing positions hit perfectly and a long running edge. The athleticism needed for that kind of control throughout a program is very high, indeed. That was exciting to me.

 

[MIM]

Mrs. Sonia Bianchetti posted her view on the Grand Prix Final here.
But, as some may expect, she also said that, with a few exceptions, she misses the art and creativity the sport used to have. She comes to the conclusion that the high level of demand in the programs is the cause.
Quoting her: The programs are skated in a nightmare of anxiety for the next jump.
So, while it seems the ISU officials are looking for ways to change the maximum score achievable under the system, she makes the following suggestions to bring back "the appeal and the beauty of the programs":

1. Reduce the number of jumps in the free programs and award no value if a jump or a throw (in pairs) is marred by a fall. In case of a fall or landing on two feet on any jump or throw jump in pairs, the concerned element should be considered as a not completed element and called by the Technical Panel as no-value, and should not be marked by the judges either. No longer should jump attempts with a fall be rewarded by nearly as many points, if not more, as a completed jump of a lower level. Either the skater lands on one foot backwards on a running edge or he does not ; either he/she stands up or falls over. If he does it, he gets credit but if he does not, he doesn't get credit. The issue is that the current judging system encourages skaters to skate above their true ability, and before they are really ready. At the ISU Championships or the Olympic Games, the skaters should only execute elements they can perform at their best. Rather than elevating skating to new levels of greatness, the present system creates an environment to focus on points, regardless of true ability. This is also the main reason for the many falls that we witness to-day even among the top world skaters.

So, what do you think about these suggestions?

I understand her suggestions passed the time when we desperately needed one. Top exceptional men as she acknowledges, are delivering beautiful programs with high level of demand, however, I think there is still something to consider in her suggestion to reduce number of jumps even for those men.

She did not say to reduce the number of 4s. By eliminating 1-2 from the total number of jumps, skaters have more freedom to place the difficult jumps throughout the program. It may provide a room to add perhaps a choreographic sequence 2, where they can introduce creative movements with no rules. Like, during the sequence, any jumps (single or double, or even half), spirals, spins can be incorporated in the choreo but not counted towards the elements; relieving skaters' fear for zayak, but opening a door for any kinds of creativities. It is all about "the appeal and the beauty of the programs."

 

[Krunchii]

Can we at least get rid of second half bonus in the SP? It's just 3 jumping passes, I understand why it's in place in the LP but I don't think it's necessary in the short

 

[HanDomi]

Can we at least get rid of second half bonus in the SP? It's just 3 jumping passes, I understand why it's in place in the LP but I don't think it's necessary in the short

I actually think it works perfect in short. If you get rid of that then skaters will just frontload shorts and will go 1 jump, 2nd jump, 3rd jump. And now it's more balanced

 

[anthologyz]

What used to impress m more was a guy like Brian Boitano. He had all these beautiful positions, edges, etc. His jumps were an extension of his great skating skills. Perfectly straight in the air, the landing positions hit perfectly and a long running edge. The athleticism needed for that kind of control throughout a program is very high, indeed. That was exciting to me.

i think it'd be a radical move if, as an experiment, a talented young skater came out and skated a program a la janet lynn. i wonder what the so-called simplicity of such a program -- delivered with total mastery and freedom -- would look like in comparison to everyone else's "difficulty." just a daydream of mine. i miss boitano, too. :thumbsup:

 

[Shayuki]

A lot of things I don't agree with. As for the spins, there are some very beautiful and challenging spins. Might as well penalize the ugly ones and keep the beautiful ones as the ones to aim for, no?

As for the jumps, this seems to reward URing, pre-rotation and tiny jumps. While I do agree that falls should be punished more, I think that punishing two-footing would be taking it too far. I'd like much stricted GOEing regarding tiny pre-rotated jumps, like standard -1 GOE for tiny jumps and +1 GOE for high jumps, as a base.

I think that pushing new highs and striving to improve should be encouraged rather than causing everyone to always play it safe with easier programs. The transition might be rough but the end result is going to be much better. It also is a competitive sport, you can watch gala shows for easier jump content and stronger presentation anyway.

Increasing PCS's factor so that it's a higher portion of the score would in my opinion be much more helpful.

 

[gkelly]

What I've been arguing for is allowing more variety in the number of each kind of element that can earn points in the free skate.

So skaters who can do all their difficult jumps in 6 or 7 jump passes wouldn't need to use the 8th jump pass and could use that time for something else that could bring them points -- a 4th spin, or a different kind of sequence not currently on the books (spiral sequence, or something new).

It would probably be fine to limit the men's jumping passes to 7 same as the women. E.g., if they're doing a quad salchow, they don't need to include a triple sal as well.

And all spins and step sequences could be "choreo" elements in the free skate, with no levels, so GOE counts more than difficulty for the sake of difficulty.

I do think transitions should be rewarded, but that doesn't necessarily mean "busy" programs. It's entirely possible for skaters to include smooth, sustained highlight moves on their own and as entries/exits to elements and be rewarded for quality, difficulty, and variety. "Quantity" on its own is not an official criterion for that component.

I'd also be OK with

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I think we do need the bonus for the second half of the SP, because there is no amount of backloading that I hate more than seeing the first elements of a SP be the jumps. Make some sort of limit on the jumping passes or write that no two/three jumping passes should be back-to-back if you must, but do not get rid of the bonus.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Can we at least get rid of second half bonus in the SP? It's just 3 jumping passes, I understand why it's in place in the LP but I don't think it's necessary in the short

Agreed. Such bonus does not award athletism as it does the LP but is intended to encourage spreading out of the jumps. But front loading can be penalized in the PCS as poor choreography and interpretation whereas now we have back loading, even to the extreme, so the bonus is exploited and its purpose completely defeated.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Maybe we need more judges with music and dance backgrounds? Beautiful expression and musical interpretation will then be better appreciated and awarded. But then such will be more subjective and elitist judging causing more and maybe somewhat different controversies. OTOH, music and dance competitions have survived and are continuing with various degrees of prestige.

 

[padme21]

Saying you want to limit the number of jumps in a program seems unfair to me. You would be giving the advantage to skaters who are not as strong in jumps like Jason Brown. Why limit the skaters who can execute the difficulty and artistic side figure skater like Hanyu, Fernandez, and Chan? This current system favors the complete skaters. I for one agree with it.

 

[FSGMT]

One thing I really agree with is the one about spins: getting rid of the levels would be probably a very smart move, so we can encourage skaters to focus on beauty and quality (I'm not wishing for the 90s when spins were not rewarded and therefore poorly executed, of course). The GOEs as Sonia suggests should have more importance e.g. if the highest for a FSSp now is 3 BV+1.5 GOE=4.5 we should have something like 2 BV with a maximum of +2.5 (the maximum is still 4.5) or -1.5 GOE, which would of course have to take into account difficult positions but could also reward basic positions executed with grace and speed

 

[whatif]

Sorry but these suggestions are senile.