South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

[Meoima]

I doubt that Russian skaters will agree to use chips made by Samsung

They should ask Apple, then. Apple is developing iwatch, which could be very usefull for people practicing many kind of sports.

 

[AlexRus]

And yes, Alla should quit her job.

Yes?

And who of Canadians should quit their job because of "inflation" and "osmondflation"?
Who of Japanese because of NHK Trophy 2012?
Who of USA because of Skate America 2011?

Why only Russians, if we see overscoring at many competitions outside Russia in favor of their skaters?

 

[Meoima]

We all forgot that Yuna is the only one who has the right to give disrespectful cooments about specific country: "Japanese girls ruined my practice. Mao Japanese fans put sunflower on ice." Blah-blah.

I did not know about these comments. Would you mind telling me the source or the context in which she said so? I am curious, really. Since Yuna and Mao are classy, I think that they have never said anything disrespectful to others.

 

[nimi]

C'mon people (and trolls), it's 2014!

Mao vs Yuna is soooooo 2010 Olympics!

 

[jaylee]

The case of the KSU and Yuna's fans can be summarized as follows:

1) Yuna didn't win Olympic Gold, so there MUST be corruption and fraud
2) Since there MUST be fraud so WHO are the ones most likely to have committed them?
3) They MUST be the Russians or ex Soviet nationals.
4) A Russian judge hugged Adelina, so she MUST have committed fraud.
5) Tech Controller is Russian, so therefore MUST have committed fraud.
6) Those who gave POSITIVE GOEs to Adelina MUST have committed fraud.
7) Those who DIDN'T award Yuna Level 4s and POSITIVE GOEs MUST have committed fraud.

Therefore the Sochi results are FRAUDULENT.

Yuna didn't win = Corruption.

What a fraudulent summary of the response to the Sochi results.

Had the protocols, scores, and results accurately reflected what happened on the ice, then there would have been no controversy. Was there this kind of response after the 2011 Worlds where Yuna Kim lost to Miki Ando? No, there was not.

The problem is that the protocols and scores did NOT reflect what happened on the ice, hence the controversy over the results. Again, WHERE IS THE FLUTZ CALL ON ADELINA'S LUTZ? Why did her footwork sequence in the FS (and arguably the SP too) get a level 4 when she hadn't earned that all season long and she didn't change the footwork.

There would have been no controversy if the scoring had been done properly. It would have been a very, very close competition, and regardless of the results, nobody could point to incorrect calls by the technical panel and lopsided GOE scoring by the judges as evidence of cheating.

If the rules are examined, Adelina receiving -0.9 for her stumble in her combination jump is correct, as it was an over rotated jump and the other jumps in the combination were fine. So she was penalized for that last small jump and -0.9 is correct UNDER THE RULES.

Actually, no, the -.9 wasn't correct, according to the RULES. http://static.isu.org/media/108107/1790-sptc-sov_levdiff_2013-2014.pdf

Landing on two feet in a jump is -3; Stepping out of landing in a jump is -2 to -3. There is no exception made for an overrotated jump.

Adelina's landing on the 2Lo is a mess, but it's not just a stumble or step-out--it's a step-out onto two-feet and she loses all speed. -3 across the board is deserved, and you can add +1 for the height on the 3F, so that brings it to -2 at best. Adelina received 6/9 marks of -1. Ridiculous.

See Carolina Kostner's sloppy landing onto two-feet at 2014 Worlds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CmT876rlpfA#t=231

Kostner received 6/9 marks of -2 or -3. That is correct, not what Adelina got.

Yet Yuna's fans' logic is : There was a stumble, Adelina's performance wasn't perfect, so Yuna should win because she skated more perfectly and there wasn't an obvious flaw in her performance!

No. You just love to build strawmen and distort the argument made by the other side in order to claim victory.

Again, as many of us pointed out, Adelina gamed the CoP better than Yuna, she did win fair and square. This has nothing to do with whom is the better skater, etc., it was a sports competition, with specific rules, whom ever played by the rules on that evening to score higher, won.

No, it was a sports competition with specific rules that applied to other competitors but not to Adelina. It's not okay for any skater to flutz but Adelina is exempted; It's not okay for other skaters to underrotate but Adelina is exempted; Adelina is exempted from level 4 footwork requirements and can still get level 4; it's not okay for other skaters to have sloppy landings but Adelina gets off easy.

 

[sk8in]

Actually, no, the -.9 wasn't correct, according to the RULES. http://static.isu.org/media/108107/1790-sptc-sov_levdiff_2013-2014.pdf

Landing on two feet in a jump is -3; Stepping out of landing in a jump is -2 to -3. There is no exception made for an overrotated jump.

Adelina's landing on the 2Lo is a mess, but it's not just a stumble or step-out--it's a step-out onto two-feet and she loses all speed. -3 across the board is deserved, and you can add +1 for the height on the 3F, so that brings it to -2 at best. Adelina received 6/9 marks of -1. Ridiculous.

See Carolina Kostner's sloppy landing onto two-feet at 2014 Worlds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CmT876rlpfA#t=231

I'm actually curious about this, because obviously the value in that combination is in the triple flip which Adelina apparently landed cleanly. I mean at what point would the -3 or -2 make the triple jump combination worth less than a 3F on its own. Or just a 3F+2T. Wouldn't that discourage skaters from doing this kind of combo?

 

[sk8in]

Questionable is one thing, presenting it as a fact without any evidence is another.
Using her marital status, as if she's the only one, to support our doubts or convictions after the results, it's the wrong way to do it. IMO.

I'm sorry but not criticising the conflict of interest - which by definition can lead to unfairness decisions and corruption - in advance, or after, even when there are no questionable calls, it's hypocrisy at best.
Basically what you are saying is: let's wait for the result and if we don't agree with that, then we can criticise something which was wrong from the beginning.

No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it is human nature not to notice corruption if it doesn't expose itself. Hypocracy would be changing your beliefs depending on the circumstances---choosing to only voice those beliefs in when a case of injustice presents itself is different.

 

[Mathman]

Of course that Italian Physicist (member of CERN) didn't watch FS very often. He even stated in his powerpoint that he is not very knowledgeable in FS on a technical part. But he can definitely study how scoring system works and make statistical analysis out of it. The analysis was written under the notion that the judges have scored without bias.

I'm sorry but if the analysis was written under the notion that the judges have scored without bias, as he says, how the result it's not correct?

Hypothesis testing goes like this. There is a “null hypothesis” (no bias). Based on this assumption, one expects the actual results to follow a certain statistical pattern. But in real life it doesn’t always work out that way because you are dealing with a relatively small sample of data which may have statistical peculiarities for no particular reason. (This is called “sampling error” or “random noise”.)

Most of the time, however, the amount that you are off is small. What statistical theory attempts to quantify is, what do we mean by “most of the time” and what do we mean by “small”? In many applications a rule of thumb is summarized by “95% of the time the sample results will be off by no more than two standard deviations.” So it you are off by more than two standard deviations from the expectation based on a non-biased model, that is regarded as “statistically significant” and gives support to a suspicion that we are not in an unbiased situation after all.

The analysis of the Italian physicist pays most attention to the fact that Adelina Sotnikova’s scores rose spectacularly between her previous events and the Olympics. The researcher rules out general “Olympic inflation” by comparing Adelina’s case with that of all other skaters. He concludes, “either there was bias in the judging or else ‘a miracle happened’” – this last possibility being a poetic way of saying that the sample is one of those highly unusual ones that occur at random less than 5% (or whatever) of the time.

There are a number of points of caution, the most important being that “statistical bias” does not mean the same thing as “those cleatin’, lyin’ scalawags”. It just means that something very unusual happened, outside statistical expectation.

How interesting that this professor is associated with CERN! Possibly he was part of the team that succeeded two years ago in “finding” the Higgs boson. In particle physics the statistical bar is set higher than in figure skating. Before you can claim a discovery you have to beat the “five sigma” mark (rather than two). The experimenters observed evidence of the decay of a Higgs particle into two photons or into a photon and a Z boson. By meeting the “five sigma” test, this could happen just by random chance (no Higgs particle, we got fooled) with a probability of less than .0000003. In other words, either we found a Higgs particle or else “a miracle happened” and the lyin’, cheatin’ gods of fate conspired to fool us.

 

[skatedreamer]

Does anyone know if the text of the complaint has been published anywhere? I've been very curious to see the actual allegations and how they are worded.

 

[Jewels]

I did not know about these comments. Would you mind telling me the source or the context in which she said so? I am curious, really. Since Yuna and Mao are classy, I think that they have never said anything disrespectful to others.

Yuna never mentioned any of those, she once said she had been uncomfortable in her practice(4cc) and was figuring out how to get over it but she never said 'My practice was ruined by skaters from ~country' you can still find the video on Youtube.
And the sunflower thing-After Mao's performance her fan threw her sunflowers(kinda big ones) and in the process, some seeds from the flowers were scattered across the ice. Of course it was all cleaned up, and Yukari was the next performer.(so it wasn't Yuna straight afterwards) Remember Yuna skipped a triple flip in 2009 eric bompard? Asked why in her interview, she answered that she had felt something catching in her blade. So some people started to say the cause was the sunflower seed, but Yuna politely explained that she believed her blade got stuck in the ice.
So none of the claims are true, and I don't see why these had to be brought up since both Yuna and Mao have stated in their interviews that they have been good rivals to each other.

 

[JayW]

Yuna never mentioned any of those, she once said she had been uncomfortable in her practice(4cc) and was figuring out how to get over it but she never said 'My practice was ruined by skaters from ~country' you can still find the video on Youtube.
And the sunflower thing-After Mao's performance her fan threw her sunflowers(kinda big ones) and in the process, some seeds from the flowers were scattered across the ice. Of course it was all cleaned up, and Yukari was the next performer.(so it wasn't Yuna straight afterwards) Remember Yuna skipped a triple flip in 2009 eric bompard? Asked why in her interview, she answered that she had felt something catching in her blade. So some people started to say the cause was the sunflower seed, but Yuna politely explained that she believed her blade got stuck in the ice.
So none of the claims are true, and I don't see why these had to be brought up since both Yuna and Mao have stated in their interviews that they have been good rivals to each other.

Yes, both Yuna and Mao are classy! I never recalled they badmouthed each other or say something like "I deserved to win..."

On the other hand, besides their wonderful personalities, I think to some degree it is due to the polite/modest nature of both Korean and Japan cultures

 

[cooper]

Yuna never mentioned any of those, she once said she had been uncomfortable in her practice(4cc) and was figuring out how to get over it but she never said 'My practice was ruined by skaters from ~country' you can still find the video on Youtube.
And the sunflower thing-After Mao's performance her fan threw her sunflowers(kinda big ones) and in the process, some seeds from the flowers were scattered across the ice. Of course it was all cleaned up, and Yukari was the next performer.(so it wasn't Yuna straight afterwards) Remember Yuna skipped a triple flip in 2009 eric bompard? Asked why in her interview, she answered that she had felt something catching in her blade. So some people started to say the cause was the sunflower seed, but Yuna politely explained that she believed her blade got stuck in the ice.
So none of the claims are true, and I don't see why these had to be brought up since both Yuna and Mao have stated in their interviews that they have been good rivals to each other.

and not to mention it was the korean media and the crazy fan fare from both sides were trying to stir up something that it wasn't even directly came from anyone's mouth..in short it was pure assumptions and make up stories..that obviously came from the height of yuna-mao rivalry..

 

[Meoima]

Yes, both Yuna and Mao are classy! I never recalled they badmouthed each other or say something like "I deserved to win..."
On the other hand, besides their wonderful personalities, I think to some degree it is due to the polite/modest nature of both Korean and Japan cultures

Yes, that's what I always think. So I am kind of surprised when someone bring those fabricated stories up to bash other side. I mean, their hatred toward Mao/Yuna must have run deep. Certainly some people have nothing else to do with their lives.:disapp:

Anyways, I have just rewatched the ladies event in Sochi. When I was watching live though my ipad, I did not pay much attention (since I am not really a fan of ladies you know) so I don't care much about the score. I felt Sotnikova's PCS were too high but still thought the placement was kinda okay.

Now that I finally rewatch the whole event again, and compare each score these ladies get... I can't even get a clue why and how they could let Sonitkova won the free skate? If anyone should have won the free skate, it's Mao. If anyone is worthy of the gold overall, then it's either Yuna or Caro. But then again, it's just my opinion which is subjective.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

@jaylee

Actually, no, the -.9 wasn't correct, according to the RULES. http://static.isu.org/media/108107/1..._2013-2014.pdf

Landing on two feet in a jump is -3; Stepping out of landing in a jump is -2 to -3. There is no exception made for an overrotated jump.

Actually it was a correct call and you might be forgetting that it was in bonus time too. Extra 10%. The judges do not need to disregard the rest of the jump combo and I am certain negative GOE is factored out after assessing the positives. So say if Adelina was going to receive +1 GOE and you then factor out the -2 for two foot you get overal -1 GOE (plus 10% bonus) It's only required that the GOE is in the minuses..not that it's negative -2. I'm no Adelina fan but a -.9 GOE is fair....especially at an event like the Olympics where judges are notoriously loosely goosey with scores. Even people not skating against Yuna get generous Olympic scores.

 

[jaylee]

@jaylee

Actually it was a correct call and you might be forgetting that it was in bonus time too. Extra 10%. The judges do not need to disregard the rest of the jump combo and I am certain negative GOE is factored out after assessing the positives. So say if Adelina was going to receive +1 GOE and you then factor out the -2 for two foot you get overal -1 GOE (plus 10% bonus) It's only required that the GOE is in the minuses..not that it's negative -2. I'm no Adelina fan but a -.9 GOE is fair....especially at an event like the Olympics where judges are notoriously loosely goosey with scores. Even people not skating against Yuna get generous Olympic scores.

The extra 10% applies to base value, not to GOE.

No, you have to start out with -3, and then you apply the +1, and THEN you get -2. The error that Adelina made was a weird mash-up of both landing on two-feet (-3) AND stepping out (-2 to -3), so I don't see how you can start with anything other than -3 for the last jump.

Olympic inflation can justify higher PCS than usual across the board for all skaters, but NOT for +/- GOE.

 

[sk8in]

Soo, judges can apply positive GOE, but there are mandatory negatives applied by the technical controller. So if an element isn't clean, and comes with a -2, the judge can say they thought the element was worth +3 for whatever reason (I guess if its a 2 foot landing on a jump with a lot of height/difficult entry) and the final GOE is +1?

 

[jaylee]

Soo, judges can apply positive GOE, but there are mandatory negatives applied by the technical controller. So if an element isn't clean, and comes with a -2, the judge can say they thought the element was worth +3 for whatever reason (I guess if its a 2 foot landing on a jump with a lot of height/difficult entry) and the final GOE is +1?

The judges are suppose to take into account positive GOE and negative GOE and they assign the final GOE for the element, not the technical controller.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The extra 10% applies to base value, not to GOE.

No, you have to start out with -3, and then you apply the +1, and THEN you get -2. The error that Adelina made was a weird mash-up of both landing on two-feet (-3) AND stepping out (-2 to -3), so I don't see how you can start with anything other than -3 for the last jump.

Olympic inflation can justify higher PCS than usual across the board for all skaters, but NOT for +/- GOE.

III. Updated Guidelines for marking +GOE of Single/Pair Elements (positive aspects)
These guidelines are tools to be used together with the minus GOE charts. The final GOE of a performed element is based on the combination of both positive and negative aspects. It is important that the final GOE of an element reflects the positive aspects, as well as any possible reductions that may apply.
The final GOE of an element is calculated considering first the positive aspects of the element that result in a starting GOE for the evaluation. Following that a Judge reduces the GOE according to the guidelines of possible errors and the result is the final GOE of the element.

I'm using your link FYI.

So if the combo was worth +1 and they deduced -2 for a step out then it would be -1 GOE plus 10% to BV which is a -.9 deduction.

 

[jaylee]

I'm using your link FYI.

It actually doesn't matter what is calculated first.

-3 GOE + 1 GOE = -2.
+1 GOE + -3 GOE = -2.

As this is an error where the final GOE must be negative, if you had an element with +2 GOE qualities and -2 errors, how would you get to negative? Obviously the guideline above doesn't make sense in such a case and it doesn't apply when the final GOE must be negative.

Anyway, the order of adding positive and negative numbers does not matter, so the above guideline is irrelevant. The judges SHOULD take into account BOTH positive aspects for +GOE and -GOE, which I have always said they did. The problem is they didn't apply the proper negative GOE to Adelina's 3-jump combo.

So if the combo was worth +1 and they deduced -2 for a step out then it would be -1 GOE plus 10% to BV which is a -.9 deduction.

Adelina's penalty merited a -3. It was a sloppy step-out and two-footed landing.

The 10% bonus is completely IRRELEVANT to calculating the deduction.

 

[Mathman]

Here is how the -.90 is calculated. Six judges gave -1 GOE and three judges gave -2 GOE. After discarding one of each (highest and lowest) that left 5 -1s and 2 -2s. The average of these seven scores -9/7 = -1.2857. For a triple flip (actually, for all triple jumps except a triple Axel) these raw score points are factored by .70. Multiply -9/7 by .7 for a final GOE score of -.9 on the element.

Actually, i think the .7 is applied first, then average, to avoid rounding errors: Average these scores to get -.9:

-.7, -.7, -.7, -.7, -.7, -1.4, -1.4