SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs?

[Lunalovesskating]

Lakernik has mentioned in a new interview that the congress will propose next year that the Short Program and Free Skate will be replaced by a technical program and an artistic program. He says that the chances are high that the new proposal will pass next year
http://moksz.hu/mukorcsolya/magyarorszagnak-igen-jok-az-eselyei

 

[Elaine]

This is a terrible idea.

 

[Colonel Green]

I sympathize with the general desire to have the short program and free skates serve distinctly different purposes, but I've yet to see a proposal along these lines that didn't seem like a big mess.

 

[el henry]

I believe, although I was young and there was no internet , that the SP when introduced was supposed to be more “technical” (I usually dislike that word as many use to refer only to revolutions in the air, which I find horribly limiting) and the free skate was exactly that: free.

I would love to see a system where revolutions in the air were not as highly valued, and other skills more valued, but I have no idea what that would look like.

 

[Elucidus]

but I have no idea what that would look like.

It would look like ice dance :sarcasm:

 

[el henry]

It would look like ice dance :sarcasm:

No, it would look like skating with less emphasis on revolutions in the air. And just as much emphasis on the incredible athleticism needed for great spins, the great technical skill needed for edgework and footwork, the control and mastery needed to hold Ina Bauers, spirals, hydroblades and cantilevers.

It would look like the great sport of figure skating:agree:

ETA: and I see I used the word “great” a lot, so that’s what it would be and since I’ve been watching since 71, I think I know the difference between ice dancing and other skating, between shows and comps, and I think I know what is a sport.

It would be a competition, it would be a sport, and it would not concentrate on just one aspect of the sport. The more I think about it, the more I like it

 

[ruga]

It would just leave more room for subjectivity and bias. PCS is weird already, and depends a lot on your federation or even coach. Also, what elements, if any, would go to Artistic program? How would Technical program be different from Short/Free? The idea looks bit unfinished.

Also, the reason why people appreciate figure skating is because it combines artistry with athleticism. Why separate these two?

 

[Colonel Green]

No, it would look like skating with less emphasis on revolutions in the air. And just as much emphasis on the incredible athleticism needed for great spins, the great technical skill needed for edgework and footwork, the control and mastery needed to hold Ina Bauers, spirals, hydroblades and cantilevers.

The things you're describing are already technical elements under the system, though.

That said, I don't think the analogy to ice dance quite fits. Ice dance has technical elements and levels, what differentiates it from singles and pairs is that everybody is doing basically the same stuff so it all comes down to the tiniest details.

What people are asking is what would be graded in an artistic program, versus what would be graded in a technical program? Particularly in the latter case, because I don't think most people would be very interested in watching something that had no performative aspect, so if you are still expected to do artistic stuff in the technical program, does it just not count for your score?

It's really far too early to say much of anything about this idea since we don't have the details, but I've yet to see a proposal for this that was all that coherent.

 

[Elucidus]

No, it would look like skating with less emphasis on revolutions in the air. And just as much emphasis on the incredible athleticism needed for great spins, the great technical skill needed for edgework and footwork, the control and mastery needed to hold Ina Bauers, spirals, hydroblades and cantilevers.

It would look like the great sport of figure skating:agree:

Yeah, yeah, I got you - it will look something like this then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYOha4bD-nU
I know, there should be lot of fans of such performances. As for me - I will quit watching fs probably
You just can't think up something entirely new in single fs - so all it bounds to be some reshifting of elements with less emphasis on TES. Basically I see the idea as gala shows with scores - and it's the most disgusting thing you can do to a competitive sport.

 

[nussnacker]

It's really far too early to say much of anything about this idea since we don't have the details, but I've yet to see a proposal for this that was all that coherent.

so right now the idea for tes and pcs is to be in 1:1 ratio in both short and free.
Maybe their idea could be changing the ratios? So that in one program tes will be a 75% of the mark and in other program pcs will be 75% of the mark.
That can be an option.
This way, in one program, pcs won't matter as much, and another program will allow those deficient in jumps to earn more points.
However, I don't like the idea as a whole anyways, they should let it stay the way it is.

 

[Watch]

Please no. This sounds terrible.

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

Honestly, the idea of a program without jumps doesn't scare me the most, its a program that's ONLY jumps, with no choreography or anything. I don't know, it doesn't sound very interesting to watch to me. Figure skating is best as a marriage between artistry and athleticism. I can't see either being too exciting without the other
Obviously we don't have the full details of the proposal, but like.. What?

 

[elbkup]

Please correct me if i'm wrong but I think the "short" program years ago was about ice figures, patterning, and little else.. I like it's evolution into full-fledged programs but I wonder how many skaters would pass the "figures" test nowadays... there have been comps fairly recently that highlight pattern skating, I think, one with figures on black or dark ice outlined in white..
This sounds perfectly in keeping with FS aesthetics to me, but I understand, to some, it would be like watching paint dry..

 

[el henry]

Yeah, yeah, I got you - it will look something like this then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYOha4bD-nU
I know, there should be lot of fans of such performances. As for me - I will quit watching fs probably
You just can't think up something entirely new in single fs - so all it bounds to be some reshifting of elements with less emphasis on TS. Basically I see the idea as gala shows with scores - and it's the most disgusting thing you can do to a competitive sport.

No it would look something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ipSYfIyqII

or something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z79TMsYRnEc

It is not *changing* the sport at all, and it's certainly not changing the competitive nature. As I said, I know what competitive sport is. After seeing Carson Wentz drop dimes to DJax in OTAs, can't wait for the regular season....Oops, wrong competitive sport

If figure skating ever just became a battle of ice jumps and air revolutions, I would stop watching (I only came back after seeing Jason) but I don't kid myself that anyone except me cares

The things you're describing are already technical elements under the system, though.

That said, I don't think the analogy to ice dance quite fits. Ice dance has technical elements and levels, what differentiates it from singles and pairs is that everybody is doing basically the same stuff so it all comes down to the tiniest details.

What people are asking is what would be graded in an artistic program, versus what would be graded in a technical program? Particularly in the latter case, because I don't think most people would be very interested in watching something that had no performative aspect, so if you are still expected to do artistic stuff in the technical program, does it just not count for your score?

It's really far too early to say much of anything about this idea since we don't have the details, but I've yet to see a proposal for this that was all that coherent.

You are right that the moves are valued as technical elements, although I do argue with how they are valued. But that's what figure skating fans do. And I have not seen a coherent proposal either.

I'm thinking more of the "Quad Boost" for PCS, such that revolutions somehow increase one's artistry, and is there a way to remove that or adjust for that? And I'm not even thinking of Jason, because he is one of the very few skaters rewarded for what he does well (although not well enough ) outside jumping. But you shouldn't have to be a Jason Brown to get that reward.

If I knew how to do something like that, I'd be smarter and richer

 

[el henry]

Please correct me if i'm wrong but I think the "short" program years ago was about ice figures, patterning, and little else.. I like it's evolution into full-fledged programs but I wonder how many skaters would pass the "figures" test nowadays... there have been comps fairly recently that highlight pattern skating, I think, one with figures on black or dark ice outlined in white..
This sounds perfectly in keeping with FS aesthetics to me, but I understand, to some, it would be like watching paint dry..

Sorry for the double post, just saw this....

IIRC, the short was introduced to decrease the importance of "school figures", which was the tracing of patterns and such. The poor folks at home, like me, could not figure out (hahahah, figure) how Trixi Schuba, whose free skates were serviceable and pedestrian, could win and Janet Lynn, a marvelous performer in the free, did not even medal.

And of course Toller

So the short program was introduced to decrease the importance of the technical (figures) and increase the importance of artistry. I believe it still had required jumps, but much more of a performance aspect. But I don't claim to remember perfectly.

So the importance of "technical" has been decreased once in FS and could certainly be addressed again. IMO

 

[4everchan]

i don't think jason brown does artistic programs... he jumps less revolutions than some and has better technique in spins and steps than some... but he is doing a regular FS to me... not sure what you see in there...


i think a technical program would look pretty much the way it does nowadays with specific requirements... perhaps like imposed jumps or spins... like a long time ago or in juniors.

the artistic program could focus on interpretation but a skater would be marked on a certain number of jumping passes... for instance, 3 jumping passes, quality being a huge factor for scoring but also, where and when the jumps happen etc... so no longer a jump jump jump jump, spin spin, choreo , jump jump jump step spin program..

there are ways to make this work though i do not wish for it...

i actually would prefer that ONLY ONE program may be skated that would combine both technical requirements and presentation... the real issue here is that both programs are two similar.. then cut one...

 

[elbkup]

^^^ Thanks elhenry! Patterns must matter to Jason I think... his skating is crisp and precise and I enjoy it for this reason.. but what do I know...
I have to go feed goats now... :scard7:

 

[katmari]

I could see the artistic program being set up similar to the Peggy Fleming Trophy.

Jason Brown won it this year with his performance of Waving Through a Window. His comments about the competition are in the August-September issue of Skating Magazine:

"The program was 3 minutes and 40 seconds, said Brown, who flew in from Beijing the night before the event. "It has about the same number of (technical) elements as in a short program, but you have 50 more seconds. Those 50 seconds really get to be used any way you like, so you are able to build the character you are trying to portray and use it to skate.

"So often we are like pingpong balls, going from element to element to try to get everything in. To have 50 extra seconds feels like an eternity. You really get to know the choreography and get to explore."

 

[Lamente Ariane]

Sounds like a great way to decimate most of the fans the sport has gained over the last few quads.

 

[ruga]

I'd like to see one purely technical program (with no music or fancy constumes) of just doing elements (Russian lower level comps have something like that). It would be great to watch to those who do not take sport seriously.

Then another program could be artistic, with more emphasis on spirals, connecting movements, steps, spins and so on. Maybe a jump or two of skater's choice. Good for those who think that figure skating is all about artistry.

And then a free program, similar to what we have now, but with more 'freedom' - no requirements on types of spins, maybe even without Zayak rule. And separate medals given for these programs. I think athletes of different abilities deserve to be awarded.

Nothing like that will be implemented in the next 50 years, but dreaming is free, isn't it.