SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs?

[ruga]

So basically they want two programs of same length, just one will have 60% PCS, another 60% TES. It's still 50/50 at the end. It seems they're changing something just for the sake of change. FS needs stability in scoring system so fans can get used to it. And if jumps stay in Artistic program, they will still be the main factor of placements. The only good thing out of these changes would be if they decide to give separate medals. It's bit unfair that most skaters (especially singles) get only one shot at Olympic medal and maybe 3-6 tries to win a Worlds' medal.

 

[nussnacker]

Apocalypse.

Considering it would probably be sooo subjective xD the apocalypse indeed!

 

[yume]

Considering it would probably be sooo subjective xD the apocalypse indeed!

It was already hilarious to see Yuna's fans put her name into men's GOAT discussion.

 

[TallyT]

Who wouldn't want to see Yuzuru battle it out with, let's say, Yuna, for the title of the world artistic figure skating champion?

Yuzu and Yuna in one competition - even just on one ice rink - could bring the entire skating world to a full stop... but given the depth of passion and devotion of their respective fan bases, the two biggest and fiercest by miles, would you want to start that war? :eeking:

 

[Manitou]

Honestly, the idea of a program without jumps doesn't scare me the most, its a program that's ONLY jumps, with no choreography or anything. I don't know, it doesn't sound very interesting to watch to me. Figure skating is best as a marriage between artistry and athleticism. I can't see either being too exciting without the other
Obviously we don't have the full details of the proposal, but like.. What?

Speaking of jumps, skating without jumping scares me as much, that's why I never want to waste time and money on skating shows featuring long retired skaters. However, jumps must be composed into the choreography, choreography must be composed to the music, and I can't watch technically loaded programs that are completely disconnected from either. As if you could replace the musical background with any song of any tempo and it would be unnoticeable. And I know plenty of such programs. For me take-offs should naturally conclude from the choreography and landings should be synchronized with accent points. When it all comes together then it's artistry to me.
So skating around with an artistic facial expression and extended arms bores me to death as much as random jumping that doesn't bother with the background music.
Unless your name is Yuzuru Hanyu, then you can do pretty much anything and I am a fan...

 

[yume]

Yuzu and Yuna in one competition - even just on one ice rink - could bring the entire skating world to a full stop... but given the depth of passion and devotion of their respective fan bases, the two biggest and fiercest by miles, would you want to start that war? :eeking:

It would be ugly.

 

[Manitou]

Yuzu and Yuna in one competition - even just on one ice rink - could bring the entire skating world to a full stop... but given the depth of passion and devotion of their respective fan bases, the two biggest and fiercest by miles, would you want to start that war? :eeking:

Yuna used to be Yuna only when in competition. I watched her recent skating productions and she is maybe 1% of what she used to be. Even her personality is gone. When on the rink with the current skaters she is a distraction.
It was so visible in the program together with James/Cipres and Papadakis/Cizeron. I wish she just left the ice and let others shine. But since she is the manager and it's her money, she was forcing her way at J/C and P/C expense and it was really sad.

 

[Mathman]

So basically they want two programs of same length, just one will have 60% PCS, another 60% TES. It's still 50/50 at the end.

That is a cool point. :yes:

It could, however, come out slightly to the relative advantage of the artist over the technician. The artist would work hard to maximize his PCSs in the artistic program, knowing that they would be worth 60%. The technician might be tempted to blow off the PCSs in the technical program, since they are only worth 40% anyway. So the trade-off would be, try to get 60% of a lot while giving up 40% of a little.

It seems like there ought to be a way to squeeze out a few extra points in the exchange. I'm sure our ever-resourceful coaches and choreographers will make it work.

 

[karne]

Who wouldn't want to see Yuzuru battle it out with, let's say, Yuna, for the title of the world artistic figure skating champion?

Oh, god no. The internet would be destroyed in the aftermath of the result. Whichever way it went.

 

[Mathman]

Yuna used to be Yuna only when in competition. I watched her recent skating productions and she is maybe 1% of what she used to be.

Well, nothing is forever. She already extended her skating career an extra 4 years, coming back after 2010, when it seemed like she really didn't want to. (For a fan, it was all worth it for her 2013 Worlds performance of Les Miz. )

 

[moonvine]

I agree with this. We already have an "artistic program" which we call the short program.

I don’t see how there is a large amount of room for artistry in the short program. It is a required series of elements.

 

[NaVi]

I don’t see how there is a large amount of room for artistry in the short program. It is a required series of elements.

It's relative... there is more potential space between jump passes in comparison to the long program(53 seconds per jump pass in the SP vs 34 seconds in the LP)... more skaters(and their choreographers) seem to be able to carry a theme better in the short program... though there definitely are exceptions.

 

[TontoK]

There seems to be a lot of angst about something that long time fans have known for ages.

It's really difficult to quantify some of the things that make us love figure skating.

We've go through weighting the segments differently, adding the short program, dropping the figures, moving to IJS... and the issue remains.

A shift to a technical program and an artistic program won't solve the eternal mystery either.

Although, to be honest, I think that the motivation for some is, "What scoring system can we come up with so that skaters with the qualities I love most will win all the time?"

 

[TallyT]

Although, to be honest, I think that the motivation for some is, "What scoring system can we come up with so that skaters with the qualities I love most will win all the time?"

Errr.... there is anyone at all for whom, at least subconsciously, it's not????

 

[TontoK]

Errr.... there is anyone at all for whom, at least subconsciously, it's not????

LOL. I'm going to relate an internet encounter I had with some other fans.

We were discussing levels and GOE. I said that they aren't always the marker of true excellence, and I brought up Yuna's layback spin in relation to Lucinda Ruh. Sure Yuna got Level 4's consistently, but her layback spin was not in the same universe as Lucinda Ruh. Now, to me, this is just plain as day. Not saying Yuna did not have an excellent layback, but it just didn't compare to the very very best.

It was then that I was glad to have an anonymous account. If some of those people had my real name, I'm certain they would have burned my house down.

So, yeah, I get that people are SUPER protective of their favorites. Maybe it comes with age... being able to disconnect from personal emotions about a skater.

 

[Mrs. P]

Errr.... there is anyone at all for whom, at least subconsciously, it's not????

Lol yeah we’d love our faves to be rewarded the way we think they should.

Though in this case, most seem to be against it. The question isn’t the fans, what exactly does the isu folks who support this want.

Seeing the latest comments from Lakernik, it feels kinda of a throwback from 6.0. I believe the short program iirc was actually called the technical program. And I believe under 6.0 the tiebreak was the technical score in the short and the artistic mark for the free skate.

I still don’t think this solves any issues though. I feel like they need to spend a few more years with the changes they just made (judging +5/-5; shorter free skates) before they try to throw in even more changes.

 

[Interspectator]

I've felt this way for several years now as a fan, but if the judges really applied the rules they already have it would clear up a lot of problems that the scoring system seems to suffer from.

Unfortunately, in each competition, you see that some rules are enforced more than others or enforced unevenly. If this is not addressed, it doesn't matter what changes the ISU makes to programs, the scoring system or anything.
Skaters get the idea that you have to appeal to the judges by this or that gimmick, be it boring music choices, incorporating difficult jumps that they are not ready for, or tons of transitions of poor quality, etc. etc.

Having a techincal and artistic program separate will only exacerbate this problem imo.

I'm a big fan of skaters who are artists, and skaters who have some amazing technical abilities. These things can exist together, if they are scored correctly. 'Artistry is built upon absolute technical prowess' as Yuzuru Hanyu said when asked about this dichotomy.

Will the artistic program be a lot of rolling or sliding on the ice or standing in one place dancing/ posing? If so, no thanks.
Will the technical program be telegraphing a 4Lutz the length of the rink, and then doing 100 meaningless transitions in quick succession without music? If so, no thanks.

For those who like this idea, and think I'm being too doom and gloom, (I admit, I can be grumpy about change) please do chime in with what you think would be a good way to present an artistic and technical program separately.

That's my skating rant for the day.

 

[Mathman]

I don’t see how there is a large amount of room for artistry in the short program. It is a required series of elements.

I look at the short program / artisitc program as a sonnet. You might think that a list of requirements would hinder creativity. But -- remarkably -- no. Whatever you've got to say, you must squeeze it into 14 lines of iambic pentameter -- not a syllable more nor less -- according one of two a rigid rhyme schemes. Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? 10.0!

 

[Mathman]

So, yeah, I get that people are SUPER protective about. Maybe it comes with age... being able to disconnect from personal emotions about a skater.

For me, it helped that the skater I was super protective about has been retired for 20 years. Give me another 20 -- I'll be all right.

In fact -- give me another 20, period.

 

[SkateSkates]

What I would prefer would be a “choreo spin” in both programs and a slight change to the elements in the LP - maybe replace one of the jumps with another spiral sequence/choreo seq/step seq.