SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs?

[TontoK]

Fans are on the edge of their seats. But there are a lot fewer of them than there were in the days of Dorothy Hamill.

It's been 40 years since Dorothy Hamill, so lots of things have changed.

I agree there might be fewer hard-core fans than in the past in the US. I'm less certain about that world-wide.

But, for the sake of argument, conceding your point.

The questions that follow are, "What's the cause of that?" and "How do we win them back?"

"B Level" competitions for those who can't contend in the Main Event doesn't seem to me to be a winning proposal.

Mathman, you're a pragmatist. Do you really think that watering down the athletic dare-devil aspect of a sport already considered "unmanly" by wrong-headed people is going to put butts in seats?

 

[Mathman]

Mathman, you're a pragmatist. Do you really think that watering down the athletic dare-devil aspect of a sport already considered "unmanly" by wrong-headed people is going to put butts in seats?

As a pragmatist, I think the butts-in-seats battle is already lost. Figure skating in the U.S. will never again be a popular spectator sport. No special reason -- just general cultural drift.

However, this need not be a cause for despair. For some reason it is human nature for us to want other people to like what we like. But if figure skating in the U.S. becomes more and more a niche sport with a small base of avid enthusiasts like us following along on Internet streams -- well, that's not the end of the world.

I will say this, though, regarding my own personal perspective. There are plenty of sports where athletes jump high, go fast, and -- lately -- do 360 degree flips in the air. I celebrate what makes figure skating different from 100 other sports, not what makes it the same.

 

[TontoK]

As a pragmatist, I think the butts-in-seats battle is already lost. Figure skating in the U.S. will never again be a popular spectator sport. No special reason -- just general cultural drift.

However, this need not be a cause for despair. For some reason it is human nature for us to want other people to like what we like. But if figure skating in the U.S. becomes more and more a niche sport with a small base of avid enthusiasts like us following along on Internet streams -- well, that's not the end of the world.

I will say this, though, regarding my own personal perspective. There are plenty of sports where athletes jump high, go fast, and -- lately -- do 360 degree flips in the air. I celebrate what makes figure skating different from 100 other sports, not what makes it the same.

Well, I'm actually mostly in agreement, although a bit confused.

The post that I responded to initially seemed to imply that the root cause of a smaller fan base was emphasis on athleticism. But, it is also entirely possible that I misinterpreted what you were saying.

I agree that the fan base may be smaller (although I'm not sure) but certainly more engaged and passionate. Heck, I've even been lured into watching some junior competition performances, and in the Dorothy Hamill days, I didn't even know those competitions existed. In the "olden days" I'd never have even heard of half the skaters I really enjoy now.

I do like the things that skating provides that I can't get in other sports, but I flat out LOVE watching the men fly. It's exciting. Thrilling. And that sense of artistic flight mixed with complex on-ice movement is what keeps me around. That's worth celebrating.

If I want artistry on ice without technical fireworks (and sometimes that's exactly what I want) I'd rather watch John Curry and Toller Cranston on YouTube than a medal competition of current skaters doing jump content from 30 years ago.

But, I admit we're an eclectic bunch. One size does not fit all.

 

[Mathman]

The post that I responded to initially seemed to imply that the root cause of a smaller fan base was emphasis on athleticism. But, it is also entirely possible that I misinterpreted what you were saying.

I am not completely sure what I am saying.

I do agree with El Henry's posts to the effect that more quads are not going to make general sports fans suddenly look upon figure skating as a he-man testosterony sport like dueling with spiked clubs.

To me, the dilemma that we are up against is this: we all agree that a sport should encourage its athletes to go all out without limits -- and then we pass rules defining the limits.

In figure skating this is very explicit. In the short program you cannot do more than 4 jumps, counting a combination. Is this fair to the competitor who is capable of doing 20 jumps in two minutes and fifty seconds?

If we allowed this, would a 20 jump SP be a bigger audience draw than an SP limited to 3 jumping passes and requiring also a bouquet of spins and footwork, in addition to having merit as performance art?

(But at least I have to say this. The judging in figure skating is relatively without controversy. Unlike American football, where the Detroit Lions were robbed Monday night by not one, but TWO phony hands-in-the-face calls -- stop-action video replays show clearly that the guy's hands were at shoulder pad height and nowhere near anyone's face. :gaah: )

 

[TallyT]

As a pragmatist, I think the butts-in-seats battle is already lost. Figure skating in the U.S. will never again be a popular spectator sport. No special reason -- just general cultural drift.

Probably not in the foreseeable future (though, as Niels Bohr is said to have said, it is very hard to predict, especially the future). And one happy thing about the current technology is that it's so much easier to follow sports that aren't necessarily huge in your own country, especially if it does grow elsewhere. After all, the fact that it's never been big here in a sunburnt country doesn't spoil my fun (and my relative who follows the even more niche fencing doesn't miss the lack of it here or in places like the US)

I will say this, though, regarding my own personal perspective. There are plenty of sports where athletes jump high, go fast, and -- lately -- do 360 degree flips in the air. I celebrate what makes figure skating different from 100 other sports, not what makes it the same.

I do like the things that skating provides that I can't get in other sports, but I flat out LOVE watching the men fly. It's exciting. Thrilling. And that sense of artistic flight mixed with complex on-ice movement is what keeps me around. That's worth celebrating.

If I want artistry on ice without technical fireworks (and sometimes that's exactly what I want) I'd rather watch John Curry and Toller Cranston on YouTube than a medal competition of current skaters doing jump content from 30 years ago.

Obviously, what we really want is stars that can win both, the technical and the artistic, but they are so so rare. But for the rest, it's a balancing act... I could be wrong, but I think there is a sound argument based on my reading here and elsewhere that the currently second most popular male skater worldwide is actually Daisuke Takahashi - no slouch in the technical field but nowhere near the current quadster crop, he is however Artistic With A Capital Art.

With the ladies, for all people rave about the prepubescents' musicality and artistry, the simple fact is that no 15 year old is going to be that deep and complex so that side is going to be less than it would be if mature ladies could compete on the technical side (unless we get the ice equivalent of Mozart, and that might - might - happen once every 300 years, live with it). Swings and roundabouts, folks, you can't get away from them. Maybe the ISU are trying to.

 

[TontoK]

Probably not in the foreseeable future (though, as Niels Bohr is said to have said, it is very hard to predict, especially the future). And one happy thing about the current technology is that it's so much easier to follow sports that aren't necessarily huge in your own country, especially if it does grow elsewhere. After all, the fact that it's never been big here in a sunburnt country doesn't spoil my fun (and my relative who follows the even more niche fencing doesn't miss the lack of it here or in places like the US)

Obviously, what we really want is stars that can win both, the technical and the artistic, but they are so so rare. But for the rest, it's a balancing act... I could be wrong, but I think there is a sound argument based on my reading here and elsewhere that the currently second most popular male skater worldwide is actually Daisuke Takahashi - no slouch in the technical field but nowhere near the current quadster crop, he is however Artistic With A Capital Art.

With the ladies, for all people rave about the prepubescents' musicality and artistry, the simple fact is that no 15 year old is going to be that deep and complex so that side is going to be less than it would be if mature ladies could compete on the technical side (unless we get the ice equivalent of Mozart, and that might - might - happen once every 300 years, live with it). Swings and roundabouts, folks, you can't get away from them. Maybe the ISU are trying to.

An excellent post.

I want to clarify that even though I love to see the daring young men with the quads, I'm not immune to the appeal of a really artistic program. Like you, I want it ALL.

And it's my desire for complete programs, but athletic and artistic, that prevents me from hopping on the bandwagon for all these young Russian girls. Jumps aside, few of them are memorable. I'm certainly not going to be watching any of those programs on YouTube in five years.

Just one man's opinion, and admittedly misogynistic, but I prefer more athleticism in men and more artistry in women. Of course the judging should be straight down the line according to the rulebook, but I will enjoy the programs I want to, and dismiss those I don't.

And totally unrelated to anything at all, other than your mention... if I were a young man, I'd get involved in fencing. I think competitive sword-fighting would suit me.

Shoutout to Mathman: NFL referees have the credibility of the referees in professional wrestling. They're just actors in a show.

 

[el henry]

The Detroit Lions wuz robbed on Monday, no doubt about it:curse: The Eagles, on the other hand, simply sucked for air on Sunday. My only consolation is that the Cowboys looked even worse

Now back to the subject at hand. I love a good jump. I have seen good jumps and I clap. I've seen quads, and I clap. They're fun. I even really really like my wild jumper, Alex K. But Alex K. is stretching his artistic limits, too

But it's no secret what I truly prize in a skater, and it's not jumps for jumps sake. I know not everyone is going to agree with (benighted thought that may be), but that's how it is. And I also want the timeless skaters, those whose programs I will watch again and again. I wish I knew how to encourage those programs.

And skating may be more of a niche sport now, but thanks to the Internet, I know way more skating fans than I ever did back then. And that's a good thing:yes:

 

[[email protected]]

I don’t understand this. There was a lovely artistic Russian Junior a few years back, Ilia Skirda, I have not seen him, perhaps he would have been able to continue skating with a different emphasis?

I would hate to think that there remain anywhere in this world outdated and sexist versions of the kinds of sports that “men” do? Figure skating has had to contend with that for 50 years, and more revolutions in the air doesn’t overcome that childish thinking, unfortunately

Liberal trends in the West have not become global, for better or for worse. Even in presumably Western country Poland there is a clear push from Catholic church and despite some protests the results of recent elections show that the majority of the population prefer to adhere to "traditional values". And Russia, surely, is more conservative. I told already a story of my friend whose both son and daughter were in figure skating. When they quit no one cared about the daughter. But he received several calls about if it was a chance that the sun would come back.

Eteri admitted that it was much more difficult with boys and one of the reasons is that they are so scarce. I cannot say for sure but I imagine that even if the word "artistic" becomes official it will mean further reduction of boys' influx. I am not sure that we should open a discussion on whether all sports should be for both men and women. But there is one thing. There is rhythmic gymnastics which is women only. And in Russia it is called "artistic gymnastics". Bringing a son to a sport with "artistic" programs is a potential cause for bullying him at school. I know what it is as I myself experienced it 40 years ago without anything artistic back then.

 

[macy]

i have always wondered what a system similar to what is used in artistic gymnastics would be like in skating. i don't think it's a bad system- it seems almost like a combination of 6.0 and IJS. it's not as complex, but seems fair. i haven't heard/read many complaints about it either.

you would have a D score (difficulty) and and E score (execution).

D would be the value of everything you put out there, the level and difficulty of jumps and spins. E would be how well you do it, and this is where judges can deduct points, but you cannot earn more (no positive GOE- if you do an element perfectly, you simply have no deductions. this would be one less area judges can "skew" a score). the E score would also take into consideration PCS and combine it all into one number.

i think this would simplify the system for viewers vs having an element by element breakdown and not understanding why or how a skater earned or lost points, or understanding all the different areas of PCS and why they matter in overall scoring.

 

[gkelly]

The main difference between skating and gymnastics as I see it, from a scoring point of view, is that in gymnastics there are rewards for direct connections between elements (I don't know the details), but all of the scoring is based on elements.

In gymnastics, there are no points for how well you run into a vault or tumbling pass, let alone for how you move from one apparatus to another. Nor is there any reason to be.

But in skating, it does matter a lot how you get from a jump at one end of the rink to another jump at the other end of the rink, even if all you're doing is crossovers (the equivalent of simple running) and even more so if you're including more complex skating skills that don't count as elements, or that combine into a step sequence element.
The actual skating between "elements" is and absolutely should be a major part of the scoring.

At a minimum, then, if there were to be something similar to the gymnastics scoring system, difficulty (D) and execution (E) scores for the elements, there should also be a skating (S) score that would encompass everything that currently makes up the Skating Skills component and possibly most of what's now in Transitions and some of what's in Composition (e.g., filling the ice surface by virtue of speed, edge depth, and choice of travel patterns).

Without such a score, among skaters who can do the same jumps and spins, one who who has never learned to do anything else except crossovers and the most basic turns in one direction would be on an equal footing with excellent skaters who have mastered all turns and steps in all directions and difficult combinations of thereof.

If you keep the step sequence as an element, then the excellent skaters might have a mere 4-5 point advantage over a skater who can do only beginner-level skating skills with just high enough quality to enable difficult jumps.

Incorporating an S score to cover all difficulty and execution that happens between elements could be accomplished without including any "artistic" considerations.

However...

Developing technical skating contests into a direction where only difficulty and execution, both of elements and of in-between skating, is all that matters may attract additional sports fans who are primarily interested in spectacular athletic feats and who are turned off by any "artistic" trappings that dilute the athleticism or objectivity in their minds or that feminize the endeavor.

There would be an audience for a sport that develops in that direction, which would include both many existing skating fans and some new fans who have been turned off by the artistic aspects.

But at the same time, a sport that either removes the music entirely or actively encourages the skaters to ignore it and use it just as background, or that gives no extra reward for interpreting the accompanying music or even for timing elements and stroking/steps to the beat would lose interest from many existing skating fans and also from many skaters, for whom that is a big part of the appeal.

That includes many casual fans who might place faith in commentators' statements about difficulty or technique since they can't tell one jump or step from another, but they can see for themselves whether a skater trips or falls and can also enjoy the way skaters demonstrate personality in their performances. Even homophobic/misogynist viewers who would never take skating seriously as a sport if there is any hint of "feminine" artistry involved and who therefore only watch when forced to or when national pride is at stake would probably better enjoy watching those skaters who show individuality and who look more at ease on the ice.

And then there are all the fans and all the skaters for whom the challenge of varying skating moves to match music and express creativity and convey ideas is exactly what they love about figure skating, and mere rote execution of elements would be of no interest.

So if there were to be a branch of figure skating that consists only of difficulty and execution of elements and in-between skating to appeal to the pure sport enthusiasts, there would still be room for another branch that values program coherence or what we could call "artistry" or entertainment value, not necessarily with balletic or other feminine-coded specifics. E.g., a skater who chooses to perform a martial-arts themed program (or duel on the ice), or to choose music and body positions that evoke other typically macho activities would be making a masculine-coded artistic choice. Which all but the snootiest of arts-minded skating fans and officials would appreciate.

So if there is to be a sports-only approach to figure skating, and maybe if that is the only branch accepted at the Olympics, there would be a separate market for an arts-focused approached, which might be considered more of a branch of performing arts than of sport, although it might still be structured in the format of a competition and might still highly reward difficult bravura athletic skills such as triple and quadruple jumps.

 

[Ducky]

I think the media landscape is both expanding access to sports and consolidating around a few big sports. The assumption of the main sports viewer as predominately male doesn't help sports like figure skating or gymnastics or even volleyball and let's not even get into the WNBA (ffs, the NBA canablizes it's own because they held a men's summer season!). Which is silly. I've been in bars where if there is skating on people besides me are more glued to the tv (or huddling around my iphone) as they are for any sport their team isn't playing in. Certainly there are more eyeballs on screen than when ESPN is showing poker or axe throwing or a video game tournament. However, the executives at ESPN or NCBSports are men. The ad people for the big sexy companies (beer, cars, travel (?)) are men. The guys are making the decision for what they want their brand to be and that's sports where two teams are "battling" each other for dominance. Or men doing "manly" things.

It's also silly because every four years, figure skating is the ratings winner for NBC. (Ratings spiked for the women's free skate in 2018 despite not having any US ladies as medal contenders.)

Maybe if figure skating were promoted it would do better. Has NBC or USFA even promoted Skate America during the Today Show or any of the NHL games or that weird 1am drone racing? The rink at Rockefeller is now open. Get the Team USA ladies out here to do a skate during the Today Show. It's in NBC's best interest. It's in USFA's best interest. It would generate interest. Most of the Today Show is just a bunch of press releases for someone's book or health fad and fluff anyway. Because guess what, if only dedicated fans are aware of the only Major International Event in your sport in your country then your marketing team has failed. Other sports seem to realize this: US Open and Wimbledon happen during the same time every year. The Kentucky Derby is always the first Saturday in May. And they're promoted weeks and weeks before the event so that it becomes an event people feel they have to tune into.

Also for the States maybe be considerate of where the big markets are located because if you're only going to show the Ladies' Freeskate Live from 1am -3am you're not going to get those eyeballs. You're not going to get the casual fans or the channel surfers or the person who just doesn't want to watch football, and while I believe Nielsen ratings now includes delayed streaming in it's figures, if your core product is not being shown when the East Coast and the major markets are awake can you really be surprised when the ratings and the advertising dollars simply aren't there? For pete sake, the only event even close to east coast prime time is the men's free skate?!? And if the ratings aren't there it becomes a negative feedback loop especially when Manly McManster and Youmightaswellbedrinkingwater BudLighters and Chad O'Kyle are looking to put together a schedule for the rest of next year and go well the ratings were less than drone racing it's going to be a wash. And yes, I get that it's because it's an event on the West Coast but somehow the NBA and NFL and MLB are mindful of where the vast, vast, vast majority of their audience lives and manage to not have games that start at 10pm PT/1am ET, and if that means the Ladies' Freeskate starts at 5 or 6pm local time in order to be somewhat mindful of prime time then that's what you do.

I mean, the execs think that skating's target audience is moms. (At least that's what the advertises tend to think). Why then shoot your foot by scheduling it when most of your potential tv audience is going to be asleep?

 

[el henry]

....
whole post

I appreciate that it is probably more difficult, although it breaks my heart that it is. No one should need to endure bullying for the sake of the sport that they enjoy and choose.

In the USA, boys who figure skate are rarer than girls. But I don't think that would change depending on which type of program is more popular. At the risk of repeating myself (because that's what I do) the Jump King will not get any more boys interested in skating than the Artistic King. It is the nature of this sport. What figure skating does offer is a chance for boys who are not 6'6" or 300 pounds to excel at a sport. Which is a good thing:agree:

I would be interested in Japan, which is pretty much the gold standard (IMO) for skating audiences now. I wonder if there is a divide in what men "should" skate in Japan. Based on Yuzu, Shoma, and others I would say not, but I certainly do not know.

 

[Mathman]

In gymnastics, there are no points for how well you run into a vault or tumbling pass, let alone for how you move from one apparatus to another.

I have to confess, though, that I always admire the posture of the gymnasts when they march as a team to the next apparatus. :yes:

 

[Mathman]

To me, the main advantage to having two programs, each with its own scoring emphasis, is that it is a rather painless way to address the question of balance. In 6.0 there were two marks, the so-called technical mark and the so-called artistic mark, weighted equally against each other in each program separately.

I don't think that figure skating suffered either in popularity or in machismo by mentioning the "artistic mark" (although I like "performance mark" better).

In contrast the IJS add-up-the-points system requires constant monitoring and revision to make sure that one aspect of skating is not too over-valued compared to others. One year they decide to give extra points to a Biellmann position -- everyone works as many of these into their programs as possible. Or they decide to give a bonus for backloading jumps -- everyone backloads as many as they can. So the next year they have to change the rule and say, no, y'all just killed the goose that lays the golden eggs, from now on you can only get the bonus for 4 jumps instead of all 7.

If there were two separate programs, each emphasizing different aspects of the figure skating discipline, and then combine results by (unfactored) placements instead of total points, I think it would go a long way toward easing the scoring tangle.

 

[Mathman]

Maybe if figure skating were promoted it would do better. Has NBC or USFA even promoted Skate America during the Today Show or any of the NHL games or that weird 1am drone racing? The rink at Rockefeller is now open. Get the Team USA ladies out here to do a skate during the Today Show.

They used to do that back in the day. Every so often they would the Today Show would feature an interviewer and demonstration by a prominent skater from Rockefeller Center. I don't know why they stopped.

Also, Skate America used to be a much bigger deal -- it kicked off the U.S. figure skating season, which culminated in U.S. Nationals, which was also well-promoted. Interest dropped off, I guess.

Manly McManster

 

[TallyT]

I would be interested in Japan, which is pretty much the gold standard (IMO) for skating audiences now. I wonder if there is a divide in what men "should" skate in Japan. Based on Yuzu, Shoma, and others I would say not, but I certainly do not know.

The Japanese and East Asians do have the bishonen aesthetic appeal, that of a beautiful young man who transcends rigid gender stereotypes. Which describes Yuzu to perfection of course, but quite a few of the other Asian skaters (Takahashi always has been a more mature, overtly sexy version). It's been noted that the aesthetic is gaining acceptance and fans in the West in artistic/cultural areas, but sport in the West is still seen as (to mangle Ducky's phrase) Blokey McBlokedom (women's sports, even when they're waaay more successful than the guys, are still second-tier in the media) especially by senior management and marketing, and I don't see that changing in a hurry.

 

[Globetrotter]

Until the powers to be refine their method of balancing and judging the scores between the difficult elements (quad jumps) and the overall quality (blade to ice technique), I doubt splitting theprogrammes will make much sense to the average viewer. I suspect that part of why the FS fanbase has shrunk is that it is really not easy to understand the scoring and how things are assessed.

 

[Fruitpie]

It's not easy to comprehend such words as "decreasing popularity" being russian, you know. Here FS is the most popular sport now, %-wise FS broadcasts have a lager audience than soccer matches.

 

[acapenci]

but does it really matter if theres a smaller number of fans in the US compared to the 90s if the popularity of figure skating is skyrocketing elsewhere?

 

[Ducky]

but does it really matter if theres a smaller number of fans in the US compared to the 90s if the popularity of figure skating is skyrocketing elsewhere?

If figure skating can become really big in China, perhaps not. But when the United States and Canada are the largest market for sports and is 30.5% of the total Global Sports Industry Market (projected earnings for the North American sports market as a whole in 2022 is $80,297 Million USD) the ISU is throwing away licensing rights, advertising revenue and sponsorships by not attempting to stymie the decrease of interest in figure skating. According to the tax filings available on the USFSA website, for 2015- 2017 the USFSA made an average of $6,222,876.67 USD per year in broadcast and advertising income. The ISU earned 17,044,403 Swiss Franc (roughly $17,273,445.69 USD) in Television ISU events (non-OWG) and 6,855,883 Swiss Franc (roughly $6,947,961.68 USD) in 2018. The USFSA basically earned a quarter as much as the ISU as a whole. (NB: USFSA has not yet put their latest tax filings up so I can't make a 1 to 1 comparison yet).

Compare that with the NBC paying the NHL $200 million USD per season for broadcast and streaming rights, or ESPN and Fox Sports paying the MLS a combined $75 million USD per year for English Language broadcast/streaming rights.

Skating might be skyrocketing in other countries, but no other media market has the same share size nor money as the States.