State of U.S. Ladies' skating 2016-17

[yuzushenko]

Yeah, hopefully she is able to peak at Nationals and Worlds. In the grand scheme of things, CoC and the GPF aren't the most important events. But I do think that, by missing the GPF, she loses any claim to a Worlds spot if she finishes outside the top 3.

i'm more concerned about internation judges' perception of her

she won a world on her home country (i think she earned it, but im an american, and i have to acknowledge that the USFS was very hungry to get a lady on the podium and other countries may see it that way as well)
she didn't make the grand prix final (which she has made for the past how many years?)
lost out to younger new skaters like mai mihara, sotskova, (gives the appearance that the new generation is here to stay/beat her)

it's almost a bit of a shame that she won skate america instead of it being another grand prix outside of US soil (might raise perceptions of being lifted up)

ironically, the USFS is the entity that is least supportive of ashley (we all know they would prefer gracie because of the pretty blonde princess name brand. the US judge gave her the lowest score at cup of china.)


the grand prix final was always a sort of "in your face, USFS" thing that showed how ashley was actually valued and acknowledged in the international playing field, regardless of how USFS wanted to bring her down.


USFS is eager to phase her out and now they don't have any excuse to hold her up, no matter how reluctant they've been about it

 

[tulosai]

i'm more concerned about internation judges' perception of her

she won a world on her home country (i think she earned it, but im an american, and i have to acknowledge that the USFS was very hungry to get a lady on the podium and other countries may see it that way as well)
she didn't make the grand prix final (which she has made for the past how many years?)
lost out to younger new skaters like mai mihara, sotskova, (gives the appearance that the new generation is here to stay/beat her)

it's almost a bit of a shame that she won skate america instead of it being another grand prix outside of US soil (might raise perceptions of being lifted up)

ironically, the USFS is the entity that is least supportive of ashley (we all know they would prefer gracie because of the pretty blonde princess name brand. the US judge gave her the lowest score at cup of china.)


the grand prix final was always a sort of "in your face, USFS" thing that showed how ashley was actually valued and acknowledged in the international playing field, regardless of how USFS wanted to bring her down.


USFS is eager to phase her out and now they don't have any excuse to hold her up, no matter how reluctant they've been about it

Honestly, I disagree with all of this, it's hard to even know where to start.

 

[Chemistry66]

USFS seems to prefer to send competitors at senior Nationals to Junior Worlds. (Which I'm okay with, but I'm generally against sending girls over the age of 16/17 to JW, because then we're just sending our older girls to get beat by 13/14/15 year olds from Russia and Japan, and ultimately, the chance of a 17 year old competing at JW to then go on and be competitive for senior worlds medals in the future is unlikely, so that high-stakes competitive experience is better given to someone younger.) But anyway, I imagine that Tessa doesn't want to win Junior Nationals and then risk someone she could feasibly beat at the senior level - like Karen, Bradie, or Tyler - being sent to JW instead of her. If she beats them in the senior competition, then she'll get sent (I imagine.)

Plus, if she's able to win senior sectionals, let her compete there. National junior medals aren't given that much international credibility anyway (unless you're in Russia or Japan, probably.)

I always wonder how the Junior Worlds assignments would end up if US Nationals was structured more like Japan or Russia, where skaters can compete in both Junior and Senior competitions. Then we wouldn't have to worry about choosing an age-eligible Senior over a Junior Champion.

I do agree with your reasoning on Tessa. At least in her case, she also competed a JGP this season so she does have arrangements of her programs that work with the Junior rules/time limits and doesn't have to restructure things if she gets a JWs spot.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

ironically, the USFS is the entity that is least supportive of ashley (we all know they would prefer gracie because of the pretty blonde princess name brand. the US judge gave her the lowest score at cup of china.)

I don't think this is true. If there is a preference for Gracie, it is because she has the technical goods to become a world champion. Ashley has benefitted several times at Nationals from missed UR and edge calls that significantly boosted her score. Here is one example of a fully-credited 2A (https://youtu.be/FAF98xI116M?t=4m34s) that is much closer to << than fully rotated. She could have been buried on several occasions with these calls, but generally is given a pass.

 

[yuzushenko]

I don't think this is true. If there is a preference for Gracie, it is because she has the technical goods to become a world champion. Ashley has benefitted several times at Nationals from missed UR and edge calls that significantly boosted her score. Here is one example of a fully-credited 2A (https://youtu.be/FAF98xI116M?t=4m34s) that is much closer to << than fully rotated. She could have been buried on several occasions with these calls, but generally is given a pass.

gracie has had the benefit of many uncalled flip edges. just recently, she got a +1 GOE for a two footed fall at france (don't know if that judge was american or not, but anyhow it's a poor example since it wasn't at nationals lol) it's not just about calls, but about the media support as well. gracie is always the first one to be advertised for events and to gain endorsements for usfs sponsored events. they choose to hype her up. i agree that gracie has more of the technical goods to become a champion, but all of the media and fed pressure is doing more harm than good. if they would simply be content with not forcing her image onto their branding efforts, perhaps she could have a better state of mind right now. can anyone even argue that she has the jumps anymore? yes, she has the perfect name, she's a sweetheart, she's kind and gorgeous and fits the perfect "american" image. but they need to stop putting all of this pressure on her. stop treating her like the ultimate marketing opportunity and just let her breathe.

 

[skylark]

Diva Wagner was, I believe, 18 when she won her second bronze at Jr Worlds, and 16 when she won the first one... there are times (however rare) when it does work out...

Actually, no. Ashley was 17 in Feb. 2009 when she won her second bronze at Jr Worlds, 15 when she won the first, in Feb. 2007. Her birthday is in May.

I know, it's a couple of months, but still. OT, but last January at nationals the person in charge of finding what age the competitors were, so they could flash it up on the screen, subtracted everyone's birth year from 2016. Even though it was January; at least 11/12 of the skaters hadn't had their birthdays yet! Everybody's was wrong, pairs, dance, singles. They had Adam already 27, Jason listed as 22, even though he'd just turned 21 in December! Fortunately someone caught it I suppose. For the free skates, nobody's age was listed!

 

[skylark]

I also believe Karen needs some sort of change. She has great basics, with big jumps, great speed, and fast centered spins, not to mention her spiral. I think she is a all around skater, but she is not consistent in her jumps. Perhaps she needs to jump smaller to be more consistent?

Brian Orser/Tracey Wilson/the team at The Crickett Club.

This season, I've loved Gabrielle Daleman for the first time. When I first saw her a couple of seasons ago, she had great jumps but, for me, wasn't an interesting skater. Now, she still has those big explosive jumps, and she also has lovely expression, good musicality (neither the best yet, but good quality). She hasn't lost anything, while she's gained so much. I think Team Orser has a superb record of taking skaters, keeping what's good, and developing more.

I'm doubling down on this because of the interview of Orser I read last Dec. He talked about how he and the team coach Javier, who Brian described as lazy and always late, leisurely, when he came to them in spring 2011. Brian had to convince him that it wasn't that hard to be disciplined: make a schedule, keep to it, small steps. They had a 5-year plan for Javi, and hey! it's five years and a two-time World Champion later. Javier still takes long vacations. They still ease him into things.

Being of the leisurely, late, lazy persuasion myself, I found it fascinating, especially since it's my impression that some coaches (FC anyone?) insist on the same work ethic for everyone. It works great for some. But I like the approach that honors who each skater is, and forms a plan based on that. Of course, I do think the team coaching approach at TCC is a huge advantage. Each coach can help each skater in the areas where each coach's gifts lie.

 

[KatGrace1925]

gracie has had the benefit of many uncalled flip edges. just recently, she got a +1 GOE for a two footed fall at france (don't know if that judge was american or not, but anyhow it's a poor example since it wasn't at nationals lol) it's not just about calls, but about the media support as well. gracie is always the first one to be advertised for events and to gain endorsements for usfs sponsored events. they choose to hype her up. i agree that gracie has more of the technical goods to become a champion, but all of the media and fed pressure is doing more harm than good. if they would simply be content with not forcing her image onto their branding efforts, perhaps she could have a better state of mind right now. can anyone even argue that she has the jumps anymore? yes, she has the perfect name, she's a sweetheart, she's kind and gorgeous and fits the perfect "american" image. but they need to stop putting all of this pressure on her. stop treating her like the ultimate marketing opportunity and just let her breathe.

Gracie is advertised because she is the current national champion and is considered the top US ladies skater. Not because she's a pretty blonde girl. Her flip edge is much less of a mistake then the mistakes Ashley had survived through in the past. Ashley is a fighter and an amazing skater but if Gracie has two clean programs she will likely beat Ashley every time. The USFS has hyped Gracie since they first saw her technical ability, don't degrade her like this. Ashley herself would not approve of such comments.

And I can argue Gracie has the jumps. This January she perfromed them flawlessly and at worlds she only had a couple mishap. Somehow 9 months later she completely lost her jumping ability? She did not that sentiment is wrong. She had a few bad competitions due to a late start and it is arguable that her jumps failed due to nerves not her inability to do them.

One late start which led to messy performaces and you act like Gracie is washed up? All the experts I have heard from have concluded she will come back strong and in the form she wants to be in.

 

[brightphoton]

Nice photo of Caroline Zhang with her Sectionals medal ... and with the proud Grant, who posted the photo:

https://twitter.com/Grant_Hochstein/status/800695189517893632 (posted Nov 21)​

What did Grant mean that Caroline is his xiao tudsi #littlebunny? Does that pet name mean little bunny in Mandarin?

 

[nocturnalis]

Gracie is advertised because she is the current national champion and is considered the top US ladies skater. Not because she's a pretty blonde girl. Her flip edge is much less of a mistake then the mistakes Ashley had survived through in the past. Ashley is a fighter and an amazing skater but if Gracie has two clean programs she will likely beat Ashley every time. The USFS has hyped Gracie since they first saw her technical ability, don't degrade her like this. Ashley herself would not approve of such comments.

And I can argue Gracie has the jumps. This January she perfromed them flawlessly and at worlds she only had a couple mishap. Somehow 9 months later she completely lost her jumping ability? She did not that sentiment is wrong. She had a few bad competitions due to a late start and it is arguable that her jumps failed due to nerves not her inability to do them.

One late start which led to messy performaces and you act like Gracie is washed up? All the experts I have heard from have concluded she will come back strong and in the form she wants to be in.

The problem is, when was the last time Gracie had two clean programs in the same competition. I mean, no falls, no pops, no doubled triples, no wrong edges or edges that should have been called wrong. When was the last time that happened? I seriously can't remember.

 

[shiroKJ]

What did Grant mean that Caroline is his xiao tudsi #littlebunny? Does that pet name mean little bunny in Mandarin?

Yep

 

[KatGrace1925]

The problem is, when was the last time Gracie had two clean programs in the same competition. I mean, no falls, no pops, no doubled triples, no wrong edges or edges that should have been called wrong. When was the last time that happened? I seriously can't remember.

I can't remeber the last time another american beat a 90% clean Gracie.

 

[frida80]

I can't remeber the last time another american beat a 90% clean Gracie.

I can. 2015 Nationals. Popped her 3t in the short and fell on her 3f in the long. Everything else received positive GOE. Ashley beat her by 15 points.

 

[artsciboy]

I can. 2015 Nationals. Popped her 3t in the short and fell on her 3f in the long. Everything else received positive GOE. Ashley beat her by 15 points.

And I would say that Gracie was close to / arguably 90% clean at Worlds 2016 and Ashley beat her there as well (and Ashley was certainly not perfect either).

 

[frida80]

And I would say that Gracie was close to / arguably 90% clean at Worlds 2016 and Ashley beat her there as well (and Ashley was certainly not perfect either).

When you look at the protocols, it's really not bad. She fell once and popped one jump. She still got positive GOE on everything. It was just the winds went out of her sails after that first fall and she didn't sell the program. Ashley by that point was really selling her long. Sometimes that what makes the difference.

 

[Mrs. P]

I remember after Gracie won the national title back in 2014 and then beat Ashley during the rest of their face-to-face matchups (namely Olympics/Worlds), many thought that Ashley would never catch up to her again. Goes to show why it's bad to make declarations -- no matter how talented the skater is.

 

[KatGrace1925]

And I would say that Gracie was close to / arguably 90% clean at Worlds 2016 and Ashley beat her there as well (and Ashley was certainly not perfect either).

I don't consider that 90% becuas besides rhe mistakes she completely fell apart performance wise.

 

[KatGrace1925]

My main point was Gracie has the abilty to be #1 everytime which is why the USFS supports her. Her problem js not ability but mental and she can figure that out. People around here insult her or they want to give up on her after this fall. I am in complete disagreement with that.

 

[mrrice]

Here's the thing about Gracie. She is one of the few skaters who's career, especially in the US, is in her own hands. A clean Gracie beats every other US Lady, and most Ladies not named Med in the World. I just hope she gets her act together before it's too late. Her programs are, IMO, not as strong this year but, in the past, if skated well it wouldn't matter. I remember seeing this program and not really knowing who Gracie was, but loving her and thinking that the US finally had a skater who could jump with the Russian and Japanese skaters. However, I hated her costume and her music. In the those days, she could have skated to water dripping and still beat several skaters in the world.

Grace in 2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC8_cAgdoE8

 

[Mrs. P]

My main point was Gracie has the abilty to be #1 everytime which is why the USFS supports her. Her problem js not ability but mental and she can figure that out. People around here insult her or they want to give up on her after this fall. I am in complete disagreement with that.

The question is how much of a return will USFS ultimately get by this support of Gracie and whether it's being done at the expense of building the U.S. ladies program or developing depth for the future. Gracie has already indicated she isn't super motivated to go beyond 2018. So if she retires or leaves the sport in 2018 -- what then?