Strange Fruit, Inappropriate for Skating?

[Georgya]

Very interesting topic and a real food for thought for me, because I usually find the reactions of how this or that music is age/culturally etc. inappropriate rather exaggerated, but in this case I have to agree.
How are they going to portray this? Is she going to skate in a pretty dress with a naive expression on her face ignoring the meaning of the song completely, or are they going to take it seriously and very realistically, which might make it even worse in the end?
All the possible scenarios I can imagine feel totally wrong.

However, generally speaking, I agree with TontoK that music and art are for everyone and not only to enjoy, but also to perform, if the interprets know and respect the original context.
Lynching for exapmle, is not something experienced only by the African-Americans during that horrible period in history, but by lots of other people all around the world even today.
If somebody has had some kind of personal experience e.g. of such a thing happening in their family, hometown or just simply studying about this period extensively, feeling very strongly about it and finding this song a perfect vehicle for sending out a message or drawing attention to such atrocities happening, should it matter that they are e.g. Chinese?

I repeat I'm NOT talking about this particular case, beacuse trying to convey something so deep and important in a figure skating competition is absolutely ridiculous.

On the other hand, I don't like the notion that teenagers shouldn't skate to anything that's not rainbows and unicorns.
They go through hard times and emotional turmoils too, and should be able to express them on the ice, if they choose so.



I absolutely disagree here. The opera characters are just larger-than-life representations of emotions we ALL experience on everyday basis at any age, and it is actually very easy to identify with them without necessarily having to go to the very extremes like they do.
Don't teenagers even today fall madly in love, thinking no-one had ever experienced such strong feelings before, that this one particular person is the only one in the entire universe they could possibly love, and that they'd rather die than be without them? No-one has ever suffered so much, right? How about controlling, possessive or cheating boyfriends? Parents being against your relationship? Add some betrayal, thirst for revenge and desire to rule the world into the mix and you might have just covered most of what opera is actually about. Definitely much more so than prostitution, and I think it is entirely possible to totally identify with e.g. Violetta's feelings without giving prostitution a single thought.

I also don't agree at all that opera is misogynist. Actually, I've always found it fascinating that given the status of women in history, the central characters in operas are mostly females, and usually very strong and spirited ones that make their male counterparts look rather incompetent and weak in comparison. Yes, the male characters often ruin their lives, but it is never depicted as something positive or OK, cause they are just women, so who cares.
Carmen might have been stabbed to death, but she is still the heroin and I wonder how many people even know the name of the guy who killed her. The same goes for Madama Butterfly.

There is also a fair share of women characters, who enjoy torturing men, kill them or just make their life hell in general and yet somehow come accross as rather likeable.
They cheat on them too, by the way.
So no, I think opera is a genre that feminists might actually enjoy quite a lot!

This was my point. Opera, no matter the theme, should not be restricted for teens/junior skaters. Its music goes beyond the original story. I don't find outrageous that a german is skating to Schindler's List music, a sublime violin piece that transcends the movie and I'm not gonna add gratuitously to the vicious circle of blame.

I don't find outrageous that a 14 yo is skating to Big Spender - I mean let's not pretend that these teenagers are not listening to Miley Cyrus, Selena Gomez, Ariana Grande, Becky G. etc whose lyrics are not "age appropriate". If they are not explicite, their hidden meaning is suggested so it's pointless and hypocritical for us to frown upon it. As for the infamous "aboriginal song" of Domnina and Shabalin, it was not the music per se, but the offensive costumes and choreo that ruined it. So it's a key point how a skater use certain music. I think Medvedeva performed with utmost respect the 9/11 program, and had a sensitive choreo, completely understanting the message of that song.

But, Strange Fruit is in a whole other dimension, I don't know what Benoît Richaud wants to convey, I assume he chose the music and suggested to Moa Iwano. I'm not gonna say it's not Moa Iwano's story to tell. It's just too particular to the black community in US, and there’s just no way to divorce the song from its context. War and terrorism are universal themes, this is more than just a song, is an important part of the United States civil war movement.

It's different than let's say a Japanese girl doing a program to Schindler’s List. Spielberg said that a major modern point he tried to make with this film was against Holocaust deniers and they are so many today - so I don't find tasteful SL programs extremely inappropriate.

Strange Fruit should be reconsidered and dropped.

 

[TontoK]

I'm going to make an assumption here is that you're not African American.

And I'm going to make an assumption that you are neither Russian nor Jewish nor Communist.

But Abel Meeropol (pseudonym Lewis Allan) was, and he wrote Strange Fruit.

So, do those groups have a say? How about his children, who I think are still alive?

Maybe I'm just too damn old. No matter how divided we, as a world, might be on various topics... there used to be things that united us. Art and music could uplift the spirits, inspire the masses and the individual, and "speak truth to power."

Now we're really contemplating a sport in which we have segregated musical canons? And no matter how you dress it up, that's really what we're discussing.

Yeah, that's not for me.

 

[Tolstoj]

I'd say just use Sinnerman for the entire program, it's a beautiful song, you can still keep the same concept.

 

[Amei]

Is she led by the same team that did the aboriginal dance fiasco some years ago?

protest in figure skating is done the way surya bonaly does it... i don't think a choreographer should express their views through teenagers who have no idea about what is happening...

if a mature skater said, I want to skate to such and such piece, because i want to let people know of the massacre that took place in those years in that place of the world, that's fine.. but again, i do believe that it's not the place nor the time to do this with younger skaters.

but then, lipnitskaya skated to schindler's list as a kid... and the music is so gorgeous and she was so good that her performance transcended the thematic... did it not?

Lipnitskaya's program for starters had no explicit lyrics and that program while it conveys a haunting feeling especially for people that know what the 'girl in red coat' was, it can be separated from the Holocaust and the movie. There's a difference between an instrumental piece of music conveying a feeling vs. a cheap trick using lyrics and in this case using some pretty graphic lyrics (some parents in the audience might have to explain the song to a young child). ***Predicated that they use the lyrics from Strange Fruit, perhaps they will back out of using lyrics, they could easily use some of the song without lyrics and rarely is a program 100% 1 song.

 

[4everchan]

@enzet and @saibon

I think you are missing my point completely, and I am not sure that elaborating is helpful for the topic... this is not an opera repertoire class... but briefly,

I mentioned opera of the 19th century (saibon, you are talking about a piece composed in 1932.. better luck next time) and before, in which the female characters are usually going to have a tragic ending. NOWADAYS, and that's an important nuance I made that was ignored, stage directors like to put these OLD PLOTS into different and more modern perspective... so yeah... you can have a cool carmen or a prostitute-character who is owning her lifestyle with fashion....

BUT : at the base, and for those of us musicians who STUDY this field and when I say study, I am going lightly here... Opera is often seen as a very misogynistic genre.... compare it to ballet where the prima ballerina is showcased by her male partner or in visual arts where the beauty of women are represented in so many forms... in opera from the 19th century and before, women are killed, die from awful illnesses, are cheated on, sold by their father, prevented to marry a man they truly love, commit suicide... and of course, they may be a main character but they often don't get to the end of the last act without dying.

Again, @enzet, what you see at the theater nowadays, is revamped staging of these stories.

What you are saying, in the context of this thread, is that if you saw strange fruit interpreted totally differently, forgetting the original context of it, you would be fine with it... because you know, Carmen is so cool now a heroine in the way some stage directors are making her such a star... What I am saying here is that no matter what is done with a piece of art, it will always carry its socio-historical context ... and no matter what is done to it... it will trigger that original context to those who are aware of it...

so strange fruit = bad move

lots of operas for young teenagers = bad move.

- - - Updated - - -

Is she led by the same team that did the aboriginal dance fiasco some years ago?



Lipnitskaya's program for starters had no explicit lyrics and that program while it conveys a haunting feeling especially for people that know what the 'girl in red coat' was, it can be separated from the Holocaust and the movie. There's a difference between an instrumental piece of music conveying a feeling vs. a cheap trick using lyrics and in this case using some pretty graphic lyrics (some parents in the audience might have to explain the song to a young child). ***Predicated that they use the lyrics from Strange Fruit, perhaps they will back out of using lyrics, they could easily use some of the song without lyrics and rarely is a program 100% 1 song.

Agreed with the lipnitskaya redeeming factors

 

[theharleyquinn]

Is she led by the same team that did the aboriginal dance fiasco some years ago?



Lipnitskaya's program for starters had no explicit lyrics and that program while it conveys a haunting feeling especially for people that know what the 'girl in red coat' was, it can be separated from the Holocaust and the movie. There's a difference between an instrumental piece of music conveying a feeling vs. a cheap trick using lyrics and in this case using some pretty graphic lyrics (some parents in the audience might have to explain the song to a young child). ***Predicated that they use the lyrics from Strange Fruit, perhaps they will back out of using lyrics, they could easily use some of the song without lyrics and rarely is a program 100% 1 song.

Using the song without the lyrics would be just as disrespectful, maybe even more.

All of the discussion about music and art in this thread is ignoring that the song is protest before it is even music or art. The song started as a poem. The original purpose of Strange Fruit doesn't disappear just because it's music.

 

[Amei]

They might keep it. Only figure skating superfans, who speak english, will know who Moa Iwano is and be aware about the controversy, the rest of the world simply won't care or even know that the program like this even existed.
Moa had 1 international competition last year (JGP), 1 in the season before that (JGP).
Probably won't get a ton of international opportunities this season as well and the other competitions would be local, and I assume japanese crowd would not know about whether the music choice is controversial or not. So...

Agree, the pair that did the aboriginal dance probably wouldn't have gotten as much hate as they did except they did the program at the Olympics. If Moa happens to skate in the US to it, it would probably get mentioned but otherwise let's be honest skating is not popular in the US and it actually wouldn't surprise me if no negative big-time press happens.

 

[sailormoon]

If Benoit did understand the context of the lyrics and the gruesome history behind them and wanted to convey such concept why would he choose a random 15 yrs old Japanese girl to do so. My guess is that he had no had intention of acknowledging the context of the lyrics and just choose it cause he felt it was a "nice song"

French choreographer Benoit Richaud is known for his creative programs, who has choreographed Kaori Sakamoto’s innovative free skates for the past two seasons ("Amelie" and "The Piano".) Iwano finished seventh at the Japan Junior Championships and she was not on my radar. Benoit Richaud also selected "Papa, Can You Hear Me" by Barbra Streisand (FS) and both songs are slow and thought-provoking. I guess Richaud just wanted something jazzy for SP and we cannot expect Iwano to understand what is behind the lyrics, let alone make a political statement on the civil rights movement Nina Simone represented as an activist. Marin Honda's "Seven Nation Army" for her SP (2018-2019) had the same jazzy taste with a black female singer, which was a bad musical choice that did not help her get a head start on the short.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzeNCrDvxmQ

 

[Georgya]

I'm going to make an assumption here is that you're not African American.

Lately, many members of the Black community have taken issue with non-Black people creating art that is based upon Black traditions or as is the case of "Strange Fruit" Black pain and suffering. Even if it has the best intentions, for instance as with Dana Schutz's painting "Open Casket" which depicts the mutilated body of Emmet Till and was created in response to the rash of police shootings of unarmed Black men, many saw it as not Dana Schutz's subject to depict or paint. And there were protests and calls for the painting to be pulled from the Whitney Biennial. It's not that the intentions were bad, but when the art world will give space to a white women meditating on a topic that is not a part of her history over recognizing Black or Brown artists who might be covering the same topic, or how historically Black music has only found love in the mainstream when it is made safe by being performed by white people, that it begins to seem that the only way the world is willing to see Black suffering and pain is when it is performed and presented by non-Black people.

So, yeah, in a perfect world anyone could play any part or sing any song because art is all that matters, but we live in a world where art has context and history that informs how it's received and what it means.

I find that interesting and I'm genuinely curious if they object to non-black people using or getting inspiration from their culture and traditions in general or just the ones that evoke pain for them.

I don’t necessarily agree that people from a certain race cannot perform to music from another race, but in this case (Strange Fruits) there's no way you can gloss over the lyrics or change/adapt the historical background.

 

[el henry]

I find that interesting and I'm genuinely curious if they object to non-black people using or getting inspiration from their culture and traditions in general or just the ones that evoke pain for them.

I don’t necessarily agree that people from a certain race cannot perform to music from another race, but in this case (Strange Fruits) there's no way you can gloss over the lyrics or change/adapt the historical background.

I do not know the articles cited, but I would not think that the attitude is monolithic. Jason Brown skated a SP to "Juke", a harmonica instrumental by blues musician "Little Walter", who was African American. The fact that Jason is not African American was not an issue, AFAIK; in fact, Little Walter's daughter came to watch him at SA. And of course, by this point, "I put a spell on you" is a warhorse skated by skaters of all backgrounds

As you point out, this particular song cannot be glossed in the name of art. The lyrics to this song are so horrifying that I can't imagine it skated at all in competition. Let alone by some 15 year old girl who deserves to skate to something without controversy.

 

[Mathman]

I find that interesting and I'm genuinely curious if they object to non-black people using or getting inspiration from their culture and traditions in general or just the ones that evoke pain for them.

Throughout the history of American music, time and again black musicians wrote a song, cut a record, developed a style, etc., which was then ripped off by white imitators. The imitators got rich and famous while the original artists, at best, maintained a following only within black musical circles and more likely were forgotten altogether.

Has anyone ever heard of Willie Mae "Big Mama" Thornton? She had the original recording of "Hound Dog," one of the iconic tunes at the birth of Rock and Roll. Four years later it was covered by the rock-a-billy newcomer Elvis Presley. Presley's version sold 10 million copies and is included in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as one of the "500 songs that shaped rock and roll."

This is just one example of dozens. It caused quite a bit of resentment, which continues to some (lesser) extent today.

 

[TallyT]

As you point out, this particular song cannot be glossed in the name of art. The lyrics to this song are so horrifying that I can't imagine it skated at all in competition. Let alone by some 15 year old girl who deserves to skate to something without controversy.

I think this is the point - that if they had searched the whole world and all its cultures over, they could hardly have found a worse or even as bad a piece of music to treat carelessly or lightly. It's not every or any song from African-American or other culture roots (let me say, I do think such meanings, if they are seriously held by their people, should be respected but not necessarily put in a sacrosanct donottouch cage) that we are all horrified at them using.

It's THIS ONE.

 

[FlyingFeather]

This is a tricky subject, but I must admit that, as an African American myself, I have pretty strong feelings about it. The main way that different cultures learn about each other, understand each other, and appreciate each other is through art and culture, not learning facts about each other. So I am a humongous supporter of dressing in clothes, moving to music, and learning languages from cultures which one does not share experiences with. Of course, this idealist view does not take into consideration that (a) a 15 year old from Japan might not be actively learning from and honoring the African-American experience in the song, but instead use it as an "easy emotion" vehicle, and, (b) the lyrics are probably too heavy to skate to in a competition. (It would be much more appropriate for a show where the main focus is delivering the message of the music.) So, yeah, I think it is a tone deaf, bad choice of music, but not because of "cultural appropriation." In general, as long as one gives credit where credit is due and is showing appreciation to the culture where they are "appropriating" from, I see borrowing from other cultures as a good thing, not an affront. After all, imitation and adoption is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[enzet]

@enzet and @saibon

I think you are missing my point completely, and I am not sure that elaborating is helpful for the topic... this is not an opera repertoire class... but briefly,

I mentioned opera of the 19th century (saibon, you are talking about a piece composed in 1932.. better luck next time) and before, in which the female characters are usually going to have a tragic ending. NOWADAYS, and that's an important nuance I made that was ignored, stage directors like to put these OLD PLOTS into different and more modern perspective... so yeah... you can have a cool carmen or a prostitute-character who is owning her lifestyle with fashion....

No, I was not talking about staging, but the actual librettos which make the female characters I was talking about the cool heroines and stars regardless of the different productions.

BUT : at the base, and for those of us musicians who STUDY this field and when I say study, I am going lightly here... Opera is often seen as a very misogynistic genre.... compare it to ballet where the prima ballerina is showcased by her male partner or in visual arts where the beauty of women are represented in so many forms... in opera from the 19th century and before, women are killed, die from awful illnesses, are cheated on, sold by their father, prevented to marry a man they truly love, commit suicide... and of course, they may be a main character but they often don't get to the end of the last act without dying.

Again, @enzet, what you see at the theater nowadays, is revamped staging of these stories.

Many men are killed or die without looking cool, strong or inspirational the way the women characters usually do (in the original librettos, not just the staging).
The men are also painted as the villains, condemned or go to hell for the behavior you mentioned, while the woman is the martyr.

What you are saying, in the context of this thread, is that if you saw strange fruit interpreted totally differently, forgetting the original context of it, you would be fine with it... because you know, Carmen is so cool now a heroine in the way some stage directors are making her such a star... What I am saying here is that no matter what is done with a piece of art, it will always carry its socio-historical context ... and no matter what is done to it... it will trigger that original context to those who are aware of it...

I was not saying this at all. If I heard the lyrics (like the libretto in the opera) and saw an interpretation that has little to do with or goes against the original meaning or context of the song, I would be strongly against it, as I wrote in my post.
I would be fine, if it was interpeted by other than an African-American, but only under the conditions I mentioned earlier.

so strange fruit = bad move

Fully agree

lots of operas for young teenagers = bad move.

Nope. If they can identify with the emotions of the piece and can do it justice with their interpretation, it might actually be an excellent move.

 

[4everchan]

No, I was not talking about staging, but the actual librettos which make the female characters I was talking about the cool heroines and stars regardless of the different productions.



Many men are killed or die without looking cool, strong or inspirational the way the women characters usually do (in the original librettos, not just the staging).
The men are also painted as the villains, condemned or go to hell for the behavior you mentioned, while the woman is the martyr.



I was not saying this at all. If I heard the lyrics (like the libretto in the opera) and saw an interpretation that has little to do with or goes against the original meaning or context of the song, I would be strongly against it, as I wrote in my post.
I would be fine, if it was interpeted by other than an African-American, but only under the conditions I mentioned earlier.



Fully agree



Nope. If they can identify with the emotions of the piece and can do it justice with their interpretation, it might actually be an excellent move.

look we will have to agree to disagree. as i said in another thread, i can repeat over and over that the sky is blue but if you think it's yellow, then be my guest.


bolded part : yes.. some can identify to juliette or even carmen, i never said all opera was evil... gosh...... but who can really identify at 16 as thais? or as a dying tosca or mimi?
moving on.

 

[SnowWhite]

French choreographer Benoit Richaud is known for his creative programs, who has choreographed Kaori Sakamoto’s innovative free skates for the past two seasons ("Amelie" and "The Piano".) Iwano finished seventh at the Japan Junior Championships and she was not on my radar. Benoit Richaud also selected "Papa, Can You Hear Me" by Barbra Streisand (FS) and both songs are slow and thought-provoking. I guess Richaud just wanted something jazzy for SP and we cannot expect Iwano to understand what is behind the lyrics, let alone make a political statement on the civil rights movement Nina Simone represented as an activist. Marin Honda's "Seven Nation Army" for her SP (2018-2019) had the same jazzy taste with a black female singer, which was a bad musical choice that did not help her get a head start on the short.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzeNCrDvxmQ

topic: But Marin's program is sung by Haley Reinhart, who is of German, Irish, and Italian descent. She's not a black woman.

 

[Ducky]

look we will have to agree to disagree. as i said in another thread, i can repeat over and over that the sky is blue but if you think it's yellow, then be my guest.


bolded part : yes.. some can identify to juliette or even carmen, i never said all opera was evil... gosh...... but who can really identify at 16 as thais? or as a dying tosca or mimi?
moving on.

I don't know, I identified pretty hard with Mimi from Rent (and then from La Boheme because vocal student) when I was 16. I do think we forget that teens often love and identify with a lot of stuff that we might find "too mature" for them.

Speaking of #metoo and opera though: https://www.economist.com/prospero/2018/01/22/operas-awful-role-models-and-the-metoo-moment

 

[el henry]

I don't know, I identified pretty hard with Mimi from Rent (and then from La Boheme because vocal student) when I was 16. I do think we forget that teens often love and identify with a lot of stuff that we might find "too mature" for them.

Speaking of #metoo and opera though: https://www.economist.com/prospero/2018/01/22/operas-awful-role-models-and-the-metoo-moment

OT, but I don’t think we forget what teens think. When I was 16, I thought Lady Marmalade was the greatest song ever and loved it. And ran around belting the chorus to anyone who would listen. Cause I was just so cool and grown up and all that good stuff

If in some alternate fantasy world I had been a competitive skater, I sure hope the adults in my life would have nixed that as a song for a program (in the alternative fantasy world where lyrics were allowed in the mid 70s). That’s what adults are for.

In the immortal words of IceT, “I *been* 16, you ain’t been 55”

As they should not even consider Strange Fruit.

 

[TontoK]

This is a tricky subject, but I must admit that, as an African American myself, I have pretty strong feelings about it. The main way that different cultures learn about each other, understand each other, and appreciate each other is through art and culture, not learning facts about each other. So I am a humongous supporter of dressing in clothes, moving to music, and learning languages from cultures which one does not share experiences with. Of course, this idealist view does not take into consideration that (a) a 15 year old from Japan might not be actively learning from and honoring the African-American experience in the song, but instead use it as an "easy emotion" vehicle, and, (b) the lyrics are probably too heavy to skate to in a competition. (It would be much more appropriate for a show where the main focus is delivering the message of the music.) So, yeah, I think it is a tone deaf, bad choice of music, but not because of "cultural appropriation." In general, as long as one gives credit where credit is due and is showing appreciation to the culture where they are "appropriating" from, I see borrowing from other cultures as a good thing, not an affront. After all, imitation and adoption is the sincerest form of flattery.

Thank you for speaking. I get that you don't purport to speak for all African Americans (in the same way I don't speak for all people of European and Native American heritage), but it's still nice to get a perspective from someone worth listening to.

I don't know many African Americans who follow the sport, so I hope you'll contribute frequently. Your voice is needed, and welcome.

 

[4everchan]

I don't know, I identified pretty hard with Mimi from Rent (and then from La Boheme because vocal student) when I was 16. I do think we forget that teens often love and identify with a lot of stuff that we might find "too mature" for them.

Speaking of #metoo and opera though: https://www.economist.com/prospero/2018/01/22/operas-awful-role-models-and-the-metoo-moment

yup... but do you think a figure skater could identify as easily to Mimi as a voice student? I am not so sure.... as a singer, the music, would also facilitate this...

and thank you for sharing the article. Nice to see that some people are reading my long posts