Strange Fruit, Inappropriate for Skating?

[enzet]

I don't know, I identified pretty hard with Mimi from Rent (and then from La Boheme because vocal student) when I was 16. I do think we forget that teens often love and identify with a lot of stuff that we might find "too mature" for them.

I actually identified with Gilda and Senta the most as a teenager, both of which might be used as the most horrifying examples when it comes to the case of so called misogyny in opera.
But as I said, only with the feelings and emotions, without necessarily wanting to replicate their actual actions.
I just understood how it feels when you love a bad guy, or even a good guy but one that doesn't love you back, so much that you would sacrifice yourself for them.
Would I actually do it? No way! Never had any suicidal tendencies whatsoever and when I eventually did find myself once in a relationship with a guy who seemed nice in the beginning but started showing jealous and controlling tendencies later, I simply walked away from the relationship.
Yet I still love both these characters very much and see no conflict in that.

Speaking of #metoo and opera though: https://www.economist.com/prospero/2018/01/22/operas-awful-role-models-and-the-metoo-moment

This might be what 4everchan was talking about, but the way it is presented in this article is very simplified and one-sided, and I don't agree this is an accurate depiction of opera female characters in general, for reasons I already explained.

 

[4everchan]

I actually identified with Gilda and Senta the most as a teenager, both of which might be used as the most horrifying examples when it comes to the case of so called misogyny in opera.
But as I said, only with the feelings and emotions, without necessarily wanting to replicate their actual actions.
I just understood how it feels when you love a bad guy, or even a good guy but one that doesn't love you back, so much that you would sacrifice yourself for them.
Would I actually do it? No way! Never had any suicidal tendencies whatsoever and when I eventually did find myself once in a relationship with a guy who seemed nice in the beginning but started showing jealous and controlling tendencies later, I simply walked away from the relationship.
Yet I still love both these characters very much and see no conflict in that.



This might be what 4everchan was talking about, but the way it is presented in this article is very simplified and one-sided, and I don't agree this is an accurate depiction of opera female characters in general, for reasons I already explained.

4everchan was not referring only to this article... but to the prominent research done in the field. Associating with a lead character has nothing to do with how this character is depicted.... Gilda is indeed one of the best examples of phallocratic depiction of weak female characters in opera....

 

[enzet]

4everchan was not referring only to this article... but to the prominent research done in the field. Associating with a lead character has nothing to do with how this character is depicted.... Gilda is indeed one of the best examples of phallocratic depiction of weak female characters in opera....

Indeed, my affection and association with Gilda has nothing to do with how she is depicted. My point is, that one can identify with what Gilda represents emotionally and recreate that artistically on the ice (if one is a skater talented enough to do so) without suffering any harm in the process.
I don't consider Gilda to be one of the characters I mentioned before by the way, nor for example Desdemona, yet she has many qualities that could inspire a valid artistic interpretation.

Getting a little philosophical here, but I'm genuinely interested. If depiction of women getting killed or otherwise mistreated by men who are apparently jerks and portrayed as such is misogyny, rather than accusation of those men and demonstration of how morally superior the women are (in some cases), or drawing attention to the injustice they suffer; what is a raw depiction of dead bodies of murdered African-Americans hanging from the trees by this logic then? Hatred for them? Showing them as weak and helpless characters? (a rhetorical question, in case it wasn't clear).

If I as an author was prejudiced and hateful towards a particular group of people, I'd try to make my audience hate them too and think "serves them right!".
So, if I hated women, I would not just take pleasure in killing them in my stories, but perhaps also try to convey the message that the men were right to do that. Something like "the man is the ruler of the house and this is what you get when your disobey or try to rebel against the established system in any way", to which the audience would nod approvingly.

Is there a single instant in all of the operas out there, where the audience would be encouraged to feel that way?
When they would go "yeah, well done Don Jose/Pinkerton/Duke of Mantua/Faust..., you are my hero, I want to be just like you!:2thumbs:"

Just curious if this has been elaborated on in all that extensive research.

 

[4everchan]

extensive research has indeed been done... have fun reading.. been there, done that.

 

[hanyuufan5]

yup... but do you think a figure skater could identify as easily to Mimi as a voice student? I am not so sure.... as a singer, the music, would also facilitate this...

Depending on the skater, definitely. (For example, Yuzuru Hanyu's Masquerade from FaOI, which was too intense for him to keep as an EX.)

The music would facilitate it for a skater as well. For the type of skater who really "feels the music", it would probably be similar to a voice student if not the same (emotionally, not physically, of course). Although I'm far from an elite, I can definitely get as lost in the music while skating as while singing if not moreso (probably because I'm better at skating than singing ).

EDIT: This post is only in reference to opera or music as a whole. Not touching the "Strange Fruit" thing with a ten foot pole.

 

[4everchan]

Depending on the skater, definitely. The music would facilitate it for her as well. For the type of skater who really "feels the music", it would probably be similar to a voice student if not the same (emotionally, not physically, of course). Although I'm far from an elite, I can definitely get as lost in the music while skating as while singing if not moreso (probably because I'm better at skating than singing ).

that's wonderful

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

yup... but do you think a figure skater could identify as easily to Mimi as a voice student? I am not so sure.... as a singer, the music, would also facilitate this...

and thank you for sharing the article. Nice to see that some people are reading my long posts

Mimi? More than likely not.

 

[natsulian]

I don't understand the debate as to whether or not "Strange Fruit" is appropriate for a YOUNG Asian lady. Being Asian myself, let's segue into how I would feel if someone who does not understand the pain and sorrow of internment camps or the mass killings of my people skated to said pieces? Unless I saw someone who looked like me skate to it, I would not be able to help but become a little irate. I believe that there is a fine line between appreciating a culture and wanting to invest in their history and using the culture for a big, 'ole emotional moment on the ice. I understand the argument about how it is okay if the skater is emotionally invested, but the question was, "Is it APPROPRIATE?" My answer is no. No matter how invested or nuanced one is about the piece, unless you are African American and understand the raw, unforgettable, and devastating truth about the piece then you are NOT welcome to skate to it.

 

[Mathman]

^ Race in America.

I remember this incident from the 1996 summer Olympics, held in Atlanta in the southern U.S. state of Georgia, with boxing great Muhammad Ali lighting the torch. The U.S. ladies gymnastics team (the Magnificent Seven) won its first ever team gold medal in the sport. Dominique Dawes became the first ever African-American medalist and Amy Chow (daughter of immigrants) became the first ever Asian-American medalist.

Amy Chow's floor exercise was planned to music celebrating the South, including the civil war song "Dixie Land." ("Way down South in the land of cotton, old times there are not forgotten ...") Someone raised a protest that Dixie Land had been the anthem of the Confederacy (130 years in the past) and was a horrible reminder of slavery to that day, even suggesting that Dawes should refuse to compete in protest. Chow's team hastily put in different music. (As it happened, Chow did not compete on the floor anyway, but won individual silver on the uneven bars.)

Edited to add: https://cdn-s3.si.com/images/magnificent-seven.jpg

Still Magnificent twenty years later.

 

[moonvine]

If nothing else, she is a child, and this is heavy heavy music. I don’t see what good could come of it.

 

[enzet]

Depending on the skater, definitely. (For example, Yuzuru Hanyu's Masquerade from FaOI, which was too intense for him to keep as an EX.)

The music would facilitate it for a skater as well. For the type of skater who really "feels the music", it would probably be similar to a voice student if not the same (emotionally, not physically, of course). Although I'm far from an elite, I can definitely get as lost in the music while skating as while singing if not moreso (probably because I'm better at skating than singing ).

EDIT: This post is only in reference to opera or music as a whole. Not touching the "Strange Fruit" thing with a ten foot pole.

I think it was very inappropriate from Hanyu to skate to POTO, given how poorly the Phantom treats Christine in the story.
I mean Phantom is obviously an abuser with an inferiority complex who takes out his frustrations on other innocent people and is pathologically obsessed with Christine whom he shamelessly blackmails and restricts her from living her own life with the guy she loves.
How could Hanyu possibly identify with that?!! Does he hate women?

Christine also seems a pretty passive and weak female character, who is not able to free herself from the Phantom with her own powers but relies too much on the stereotypical male savior character, which is a pretty dated idea and not a good model for confident, self-reliant women of today. It is therefore of very poor taste for young teenage girls to portray Christine on the ice (looking at you Alina!).

Personally, I would ban this offensive piece from figure skating altogether, as it cannot possibly do any good to anyone!
And I'm sure many would support this initiative enthousiasticaly, even if perhaps for different reasons than those mentioned above.

(end of sarcasm)

Now, Strange Fruit is a whole different level of inappropriate.

 

[rRainbow]

Moa is fluent in English. https://actnow.jp/project/moaiwano/detail
Why did she choose this song while understanding the horrifying meaning of the song lyrics? Or was it forced on her by the choreographer or her coach? It is tragic that this song was chosen by any skater and I hope it's not too late for her team to replace this song with something else.

 

[frida80]

Moa is fluent in English. https://actnow.jp/project/moaiwano/detail
Why did she choose this song while understanding the horrifying meaning of the song lyrics? Or was it forced on her by the choreographer or her coach? It is tragic that this song was chosen by any skater and I hope it's not too late for her team to replace this song with something else.

Even if your fluent in a language, nuance can be hard to pick up. This is all on her choreographer. I’m very disappointed.

 

[rRainbow]

Even if your fluent in a language, nuance can be hard to pick up. This is all on her choreographer. I’m very disappointed.

My friends who are not good at English got horrified by the lyrics as it is so graphic. I don't think the depiction is nuanced. Anyway I am not blaming Moa. If she was forced to skate to it over her objections, she was victimized even more considering how horrible she must have felt. If she protested because she understood the meaning of the song but was overruled by the choreographer/coach, what a tragedy it is! The adults around her should have talked to her more to protect her.

 

[TontoK]

Even if your fluent in a language, nuance can be hard to pick up. This is all on her choreographer. I’m very disappointed.

I'm with you on this being a bad choice. But...

Maybe her team picked it precisely because it would generate buzz. Maybe it's meant to announce a new avant-garde persona for this skater. I don't recall having heard of her before this dust-up.

I'm a traditionalist (shocker, I know), and old enough that I recall T&D's Bolero as being a pretty wild choice, too. Of course, they had the status of some WC and Olympic favorites when they chose it, so criticism was muted... but it was definitely there. Ice dance performed to overtly sexual music? Where's the fainting couch?

I even remember being somewhat uncomfortable the first time I heard religious music being used in skating... Amazing Grace and Ave Maria, for example. Those aren't show tunes - they're sacred music and I thought skating to them was trivializing faith. People tend to get over discomfort at these artistic risks.

Who knows, maybe it will be a wildly successful program. I doubt it, but there's a chance.

 

[Mathman]

I'm a traditionalist (shocker, I know), and old enough that I recall T&D's Bolero as being a pretty wild choice, too.

What was controversial about Bolero? (Other than that music critics -- including Ravel himself -- panned it for being without musical substance.)

 

[TontoK]

What was controversial about Bolero? (Other than that music critics -- including Ravel himself -- panned it for being without musical substance.)

Bolero has a reputation for being great back-ground music for "doing it." This notion really gained steam in the late 70's with the release of the comedy box-office hit "10."

Here's a NSFW clip of Bo Derek and Dudley Moore having a chat about Bolero.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dILIdREylC0

Believe me, when they skated to this, everyone knew the deal.

 

[Mathman]

On the subject (somewhat off-topic for this thread) of how woman are portrayed in opera), my view is this.

I am not knowledgeable about opera. But in literature and the arts generally there is certainly a tradition of central female characters who are vibrant, clever and willful, and who are deliberately constructed to stand out from the dullard one-dimensional males that they must negotiate their way around.

This is true, for instance, in the majority of Shakespeare's comedies. The Merchant of Venice (if that's a comedy), Twelfth Night, Much Ado About Nothing, Midsummernight's Dream, etc., all have interesting, self-reliant and likable ladies -- the gentlemen, not so much. Even in the tragedies, Lady MacBeth is more sinister than MacBeth, Juliet has more moxie than Romeo, etc.

 

[TontoK]

^^^ It's not just the classics, Mathman.

Think of Scarlett O'Hara. Sure, Rhett is a strong character, but it's the contrast between Scarlett and Ashley Wilkes that provides a lot of the tension, and exasperation on the part of the audience. Why can't she see that he's just not the right man for her?

 

[4everchan]

On the subject (somewhat off-topic for this thread) of how woman are portrayed in opera), my view is this.

I am not knowledgeable about opera. But in literature and the arts generally there is certainly a tradition of central female characters who are vibrant, clever and willful, and who are deliberately constructed to stand out from the dullard one-dimensional males that they must negotiate their way around.

This is true, for instance, in the majority of Shakespeare's comedies. The Merchant of Venice (if that's a comedy), Twelfth Night, Much Ado About Nothing, Midsummernight's Dream, etc., all have interesting, self-reliant and likable ladies -- the gentlemen, not so much. Even in the tragedies, Lady MacBeth is more sinister than MacBeth, Juliet has more moxie than Romeo, etc.

i confirm that the tradition in opera is different for tragedies... for comic opera, it's closer to what you would see in shakespeare... a recurring theme for instance is the "mistaken identity" like one can see in le nozze di figaro..... there is no drama there... the audience knows what's going on... and there is a happy ending for everyone but in tragedies, the women are depicted as subhuman. I mean, considering with what is happening in the world globally with the metoo movement, and looking at the victims of abuse in sport, i think it's time that coaches and choreographers, if not the young athletes themselves, take their responsibilities and stop using music with such connotations. What kind of message do you think it sends when a young girl skates to a piece from an opera in which one she will kill herself because she loves a man who abused her... and no.. she is not killing herself because of grief and despair... she is killing herself because she still loves him.... it just victimizes women.. there are plenty of other examples... read the libretti, read the research.. there is plenty. I have mentioned it loud and clear in this thread already.. not sure why people still think it's okay and admit not having read the scholars who are experts in the domain.