Strange Fruit, Inappropriate for Skating?

[Ophelia]

^That's not an excuse. Neither is "not understanding what they're skating to". Benoit is getting PAID for choreography. This is his job. Any choreographer and skater should be reading the lyrics and understanding the background to songs they choose. It is doing the bare minimum.

The fact that some ppl think that "not reading the lyrics" is a plausible explanation is baffling. You're going to skate to something that you have no idea about?

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

^That's not an excuse. Neither is "not understanding what they're skating to". Benoit is getting PAID for choreography. This is his job. Any choreographer and skater should be reading the lyrics and understanding the background to songs they choose. It is doing the bare minimum.

The fact that some ppl think that "not reading the lyrics" is a plausible explanation is baffling. You're going to skate to something that you have no idea about?

I never said once in my post that it was acceptable. Also, scroll back a page and read what I had to say about choreographers and skaters and research.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Just came across this discussion.

I don't want to get into the political and cultural arguments about the lyrics. So, I won't.

But, I do think it would be useful to take a step back and imagine that it was a few years ago when vocals were not allowed, and when it was less obvious what songs were about. So, back to a time when we were judging the music choices for programmes purely on the merits of the music rather than the subject matter.

When I went onto YouTube looking for instrumental versions for you to listen to, I could only find one of each song. So, here they are:

"Sinnerman" (Karaoke track)
"Strange Fruit" (Instrumental version)

In my head, I can imagine what a "Sinnerman" routine would look like. Hey, it's not that hard to imagine - we've seen it plenty of times!

Here is one which only has minimal vocals (I think it is actually using the same karaoke track that I linked to earlier in this post):

Nam Nguyễn - 2015 World Championships SP

And for comparison, here is one with full vocals:

Alisa Stomakhina - 2016 Ljubljana Cup SP

On the other hand, I cannot imagine what a "Strange Fruit" routine would look like. The music just seems too slow to be skated to. And this would just be compounded when paired up with the fast pace of "Sinnerman".

Unsurprisingly, I can't find any previous programmes that used "Strange Fruit" to demonstrate this. However, I did find a programme from only last season that started with a different slow song from Nina Simone, "Don't Explain" (with vocals), and then went into "Sinnerman" (without vocals):

Luc Economides - 2018 Lombardia Trophy SP

Although this particular programme did work, "Strange Fruits" is very different piece of music. It is even slower than "Don't Explain", and I think the contrast in pace with "Sinnerman" would be too big.

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that from a purely skating perspective, I agree that it would be better to drop "Strange Fruit" and just have it as a straight "Sinnerman" programme.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Ophelia]

I never said once in my post that it was acceptable. Also, scroll back a page and read what I had to say about choreographers and skaters and research.

I am replying to your comment about "cultural misinterpretion and honest mistake. I don't consider it an explanation for Benoit's choice since a 10 second Google Search could have helped him avoid this.

 

[DSQ]

It’s certainly risky choosing such evocative music as it can lead to the response we’re having here, one of incredulity and a little revulsion.

However I have a question. Some here say that it’d be fine if someone like Starr Andrews or Emanuel Savary skated to Strange Fruit, my question is what about other black skaters? Like Vanessa James (Bermuda), Robin Szolkowy (half Tanzanian half German), Maé-Bérénice Méité (French, Ivory Coast and the Congo) or Surya Bonaly (unknown heritage but French) or even myself being Afro-Caribbean? While lynching is unfortunately not a unique experience throughout history Strange Fruit is about a particular response to the American experience of it.

If anything I’d say the best skater to choose this music would be Americans regardless of race.

I’ll hold off on my own judgment of Iwano’s choice until I see the performance. For me that is the true test. However I understand the outrage, choosing such a political and evocative song does seem crass.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I am replying to your comment about "cultural misinterpretion and honest mistake. I don't consider it an explanation for Benoit's choice since a 10 second Google Search could have helped him avoid this.

If you'd go read my other post on the previous page you would not be judging things the way you are right now.

Here https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...-for-Skating&p=2427439&viewfull=1#post2427439

 

[icetug]

Rather topic:, but I'm really curious and wish to know cultural nuance:

as a musician, i am always conflicted with what goes on in figure skating..
for instance pooja kalyan is doing Thais mediation... well.. i would say that this is wildly inappropriate ... just as much as big spender for a 13 y o...

Why the story of Saint Thais is considered to be inappropriate? Just for Pooja (who is 16) or for FS as a whole?
As a catholic myself I have (possibly) a different perception, so please enlighten me.

 

[Mathman]

There's a difference between everyone having access to enjoy a piece of art and everyone having access to use that piece of art for their own purposes. There should be some consideration given to the person who made it and the historical context in which it was made.

But then again, the person who made it was a white Jewish poet and educator, in response to a gruesome photograph of a lynching in the state of Indiana (not the Deep South) in 1930. The lyrics were first published as a poem in the trade magazine of the New York Teachers Union. It is a powerful and influential piece embodying (as do all great works of art) a universality that reflects yet transcends the details of historical incident.

Look at the faces of the "ordinary folks" watching and cheering at the mob hangings. They could be me. They could be you.

We naively console ourselves. This can't happen today. This can't happen in my town or country. We sleep on.

[Anyway, no, this song is not an appropriate musical background for something so trivial as figure skating. The skater should make a different musical choice.]

 

[Mathman]

Rather topic:, but I'm really curious and wish to know cultural nuance:

Why the story of Saint Thais is considered to be inappropriate? Just for Pooja (who is 16) or for FS as a whole?
As a catholic myself I have (possibly) a different perception, so please enlighten me.

I think it is the 16-year-old part.

What Thais is meditating about in the "Meditation" (instrument interlude between the second and third acts) is, "Should I keep on being a prostitute or should I become a nun?"

This is a choice that teenagers should not have to face yet (on the ice, I mean).

Then again, the music itself is of transcendent beauty, ignoring the context of the play. I have no problem with any skater, young or old, just skating to the pretty music.

 

[WeakAnkles]

The problem is, when you choose a song that is going to divide an audience, that choice becomes the single thing that defines the skater(s). The intent behind the choice may be honorable (or it may be cynical; I've seen both as a fan), but it becomes the single biggest defining feature of that skater or pair, not just for that season, but for their career. Some commentator will inevitably bring it up. Fans will "know" them as that skater/tea, who skated "that" program.

That's a big burden to put on a 15 year old.

 

[[email protected]]

I read the lyrics and if they keep it in the program it does look very inappropriate for skating. Why did they do it? There should be some concept that the team devised where this song fits. May be, if they don't drop it they will come up with explanations.

What is an interesting topic for me, though is who defines "the lines not to be crossed". North American history is just a part of the world's history. And in the world's history atrocities of much bigger order of magnitude happened and keep happenning. I wonder, what reaction from Japan would come if a European skater had a program to Hiroshima theme? I remember that there was some critique about Nicole Schott's picking SL a season ago but this critique was much milder from the American part of the audience than when EM had 9/11 program.

 

[Georgya]

I think it is the 16-year-old part.

What Thais is meditating about in the "Meditation" (instrument interlude between the second and third acts) is, "Should I keep on being a prostitute or should I become a nun?"

This is a choice that teenagers should not have to face yet (on the ice, I mean).

Then again, the music itself is of transcendent beauty, ignoring the context of the play. I have no problem with any skater, young or old, just skating to the pretty music.

Why only Thais? Because of prostitution and religion theme? Why not Madama Butterfly or La Traviata, scores of junior figure skaters from all over the world used these for their programs.

I mean it is equally bad for a 16yo to portray a woman returning to be a prostitute because she is forced to abandon her lover, no?

Edit. I ment to quote 4everchan's post it was an error

 

[[email protected]]

Why only Thais? Because of prostitution and religion theme? Why not Madama Butterfly or La Traviata, scores of junior figure skaters from all over the world used these for their programs.

I mean it is equally bad for a 16yo to portray a woman returning to be a prostitute because she is forced to abandon her lover, no?

We could go on and on. Nessun Dorma was once a very popular topic. But Turandot was a cold blooded killer. And Kalaf in his passion did not care much that his long time servant had to commit a suicide because of his ambitions. And the whole city could be slayed. How appropriate is this to be skated to?

One reasonable thing is to separate pure works of art like Turandot, Cabaret, Mouline Rouge, etc. and those that relate to bad things that actually happened in history. But even then, there are people who will be offended when others would consider it within the moral norms. Hence, the only solution for those who play with risky topics is to see whether there is a critical mass of negativity coming from important "customer segments" or it is just grumbling from some random unhappy people.

 

[QueenOfTheRoad]

Frankly, i have the feeling that people doesn't care what they choreograph /skate to too much. How on earth can Misha Ge mix for Alexia Paganini SP "16 Tons" with "Bei mir bist du schön"? Did they not search for the meaning of 16 tons? Because mixing such different messages is puzzling to me? I love 16 tons and i don't have anything against someone skating to this iconic song, but mixing it to a love song? What is the message of the Sp then?

This powerful lyrics
"Some people say a man is made outta mud
A poor man's made outta muscle and blood
Muscle and blood and skin and bones
A mind that's a-weak and a back that's strong
You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store"

with

"Bei mir bist do schön, please let me explain
Bei mir bist do schön means you're grand
Bei mir bist do schön, again I'll explain
It means you're the fairest in the land"

At least i think they won't use the original Yiddish lyrics, which i find not suitable anymore in modern time (it is too little known the origin of this song, even when you can find after a normal google session). The original lyrics are here: https://www.tangoyim.de/lieder/bay-mir-bistu-sheyn.html; https://www.milkenarchive.org/music...rican-yiddish-stage/work/bay-mir-bistu-sheyn/

 

[TontoK]

Access, yes. Representation, no. Those are two different things and distinguishing between the two is important.

Moa doesn't just lack the maturity and sensitivity to portray this piece, she lacks the personal context and right to interpret this piece. It is insultingly presumptuous for her team to think she can represent the horror of African American lynching, and ignorant of you to stubbornly insist she can, especially given your lack of awareness around the history of Strange Fruit.

I had a blistering response to this all typed out, but I've thought better of it.

I'll just say this - attempting to sway another to your point of view by labeling them as ignorant and stubborn is rarely a successful tactic.

Go in peace. Be happy.

 

[yelyoh]

My two cents: very very inappropriate choice of music to skate to for ANYONE regardless of age/race.

 

[andromache]

I just want to point out that I don't think Strange Fruit is comparable to warhorses like Madame Butterfly, Nessun Dorma, Moulin Rouge, Schindler's List, etc. Strange Fruit was written in direct response to actual lynchings. The Wikipedia page for the song has a photograph of two lynched men's bodies. It's horrifying. There are many African-Americans still living who remember what it was like to live in fear of they or their loved ones getting murdered in this way.

This was not written and composed as a fictional story, or for a Hollywood soundtrack. It is so directly rooted in violence and tragedy of a very personal kind that has been the unique experience of African-Americans (while the poem was written by a Jewish-American, its most important performances have been by African-American singers). For someone who is so far removed from this experience such as a young Japanese skater to skate to this music feels wrong and almost exploitative. It's not Moa's fault - it's Benoit's. He should know better.

 

[pearly]

My two cents: very very inappropriate choice of music to skate to for ANYONE regardless of age/race.

I agree.

I also want to point out that this may not have been Benoit's choice of music - it could also have been the coaching team or the parents. Still, an adult involved in the process should have thought to check what the song was about.

Benoit has received a lot of backlash on Twitter and Instagram, maybe they will reconsider.

 

[Seven Sisters]

For someone who is so far removed from this experience such as a young Japanese skater to skate to this music feels wrong and almost exploitative. It's not Moa's fault - it's Benoit's. He should know better.

I am reminded of Domnina and Shabalin’s interpretation of Aboriginal Dance for their 2009-10 season OD—a dreadfully misguided choice that ruined their reputation and still outrages skating fans ten years later. Moa’s team would be well advised to reconsider; this is NOT what you want to be remembered for.

 

[Anni234]

oh boy is this a bad choice