Strange Fruit, Inappropriate for Skating?

[Mathman]

no need for italian to read the libretti... and it's not only italian opera at fault....

and so what you are saying is that the context doesn't matter since the music is so beautiful... then why are you against strange fruit...? that's a double standard....

Here's what I think: you know too much about music in general and opera in particular. For me (not knowing Italian and not knowing much about the plots of operas), beautiful music as a backdrop for an athletic performance is pretty much all that is required.

I confess that I never knew or cared anything about the plot of Turandot. I did look up the words to Nessun Dorma once and found out it was something about, "Don't go to sleep."

As for Thais, many skaters used that music (I especially liked Berezhnaya and Sikharudlidze's). I even played it in concert myself once in my junior high school band* -- but I was never curious enough to read about the opera, and the Mediataion doesn't have words, anyway.

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* The score for the trombone part carried the instruction, "muted thruout." I remember wondering, what the heck is a muted thruout? I supposed that since our band did not have a thruout player, I was supposed to fake in the thruout part on the trombone.

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As for the double standard charge, the music (without words) of Strange Fruit cannot stand alone free of context in the same sense that we can make that claim about Nessun Dorme and the Meditation. In fact, I have never heard tell of an instrumental version of this song -- or of any version that was not designed to emphasize the horror embodied by the words. No one would even recognize what song is being played if they heard just the accompaniment.

 

[4everchan]

Here's what I think: you know too much about music in general and opera in particular. For me (not knowing Italian and not knowing much about the plots of operas), beautiful music as a backdrop for an athletic performance is pretty much all that is required.

I confess that I never knew or cared anything about the plot of Turandot. I did look up the words to Nessun Dorme once and found out it was something about, "Don't go to sleep."

As for Thais, many skaters used that music (I especially liked Berezhnaya and Sikharudlidze's). I even played it in concert myself once in my junior high school band* -- but I was never curious enough to read about the opera, and the Mediataion doesn't have words, anyway.

------------

* The score for the trombone part carried the instruction, "muted thruout." I remember wondering, what the heck is a muted thruout? I supposed that since our band did not have a thruout player, I was supposed to fake in the thruout part on the trombone.

--------------

As for the double standard charge, the music (without words) of Strange Fruit cannot stand alone free of context in the same sense that we can make that claim about Nessun Dorme and the Meditation. In fact, I have never heard tell of an instrumental version of this song -- or of any version that was not designed to emphasize the horror embodied by the words. No one would even recognize what song is being played if they heard just the accompaniment.

First bold part : since when do we blame someone for their knowledge? This is odd to me... let's mute people who know about something so we all remain in the bliss of ignorance....

Second bold part : actually, I was listening to the Billie Holiday version the other day when this debate started... and I can tell you that this version would be very easy to recognize without the lyrics/voice : the trumpet prelude/interludes followed by slow soft piano chords... trust me... I can recognize this song... and the point I was making was NOT about whether or not the music can live on its own without the lyrics or not... the point I am making is this : as many know of the socio-historical and cultural context of a piece of music, it becomes necessary to avoid inappropriate choices. In other words, not knowing about the libretto of an opera doesn't make the piece acceptable... because there will always be some people who will know about it... and will be there to say how disgraceful it is for a 16 y o girl to skate to Thais.


PS are you kidding me about thruout? It is just short for throughout... in other words, keep your mute on at all times... oh lord..

 

[Ducky]

First bold part : since when do we blame someone for their knowledge? This is odd to me... let's mute people who know about something so we all remain in the bliss of ignorance....

Second bold part : actually, I was listening to the Billie Holiday version the other day when this debate started... and I can tell you that this version would be very easy to recognize without the lyrics/voice : the trumpet prelude/interludes followed by slow soft piano chords... trust me... I can recognize this song... and the point I was making was NOT about whether or not the music can live on its own without the lyrics or not... the point I am making is this : as many know of the socio-historical and cultural context of a piece of music, it becomes necessary to avoid inappropriate choices. In other words, not knowing about the libretto of an opera doesn't make the piece acceptable... because there will always be some people who will know about it... and will be there to say how disgraceful it is for a 16 y o girl to skate to Thais.

These seems to be two different arguments here. The first is whether or not teens can/should portray characters we might think are unseemly even though they're interpreting the music itself devoid of context, but that music is 1) of it's time and 2) non-political so the medium isn't the message. (And I look forward to having it again when ice dance is going to be with folk music because c'mon people, murder ballads!!!) The second is whether you can divorce the music of Strange Fruit from it's message and context and still deliver a moving performance.

Honestly, I think the better corollary would be could you imagine a non-American skater doing a program to Childish Gambino's "This is America".

 

[Mathman]

First bold part : since when do we blame someone for their knowledge?

I wasn't blaming you. I was attempting a compliment.

But then, too, you approach these issues with the eyes and ears of a professional musician. I am sure that a professional historian would have something to say about the authenticity of Jason Brown's portrayal of Aaron Burr, but this would not detract from the casual figure skating fan's enjoyment of the performance. (Missing that triple Axel, though -- that's bad.).

PS are you kidding me about thruout? It is just short for throughout... in other words, keep your mute on at all times... oh lord..

Believe me, I am properly embarrassed at how long it took me to figure that out as a 12-year-old. I didn't own a mute anyway. I got one for Christmas the next year.

 

[TallyT]

There is "probably inappropriate but unlikely to cause a fuss" (Madame Butterfly for instance. I giggled at a description of a performance as 'a Chinese soprano singing an Italian's version of a Japanese-American love story on a global video platform' and now you could add in a skater from who knows where? And it's hard to get properly offended over the Cleopatra knockoffs after Liz Taylor, Asterix and the Carry On movies have had their shot at the Macedonian queen).

There is "dicey but if done respectfully... okay" (Schindler - as I said, some of them only just squeak past for me).

There's "no, that's crass" (that little girl's cringeworthy Hey Big Spender, and even moreso the ice dancers who trampled on indigenous Australian culture).

And then there's "my god why would ANYONE trample on that open wound?" (a pretty but immature Japanese girl skating to words that graphically and unmistakably describe the bodies of murdered victims killed for their race)

Surely anyone who can actually read the words can see the line they've crossed? Yes, a lot of operas have dodgy - or worse - social mores by our standards ("she's his aunt"... from Anna Russell's sendup of the Ring cycle), and a lot of sex and violence (so does Game of Thrones, and its gorgeous music is being used) but the point of said operas is not the social mores - most of them anyway - or the words, it's the sex, the love stories, the tragedies, the heroes etc and the gorgeous music. That's why they mostly go - at least for me - into the first two groups.

Strange Fruit is music and poetry that is purely in the service of the message. You can't pretty it up. You can't make it 'edgy' or trendy or sweet or anything to make yourself look good. You. Simply. Can't.

 

[4everchan]

^^
they are two different problems

strange fruit = discuss race issues

opera of the 18th and 19th century shows how badly women were depicted in the theater = gender issues

to me, both are important issues to deal with carefully....

the power and beauty of the words in strange fruit, is equivalent to me to the power and beauty in some operas...

that's not an issue at all...

the only redeeming factor : opera is fictional THOUGH it did reflect society's behaviour back then.... strange fruit is unfortunately not fictional.


however, gender issues are very well-known in the musical world... it is only recently that the Berlin Phil, one of the most revered orchestra in the world allowed women to play ... have a good read... and you may understand why it's a sensitive topic for some of us.

https://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/11/16/berlin-in-lights-the-woman-question/


and if you want some more,

here is an article about Lara St-John's assault by her own teacher when she was 14... https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/lara-st-john-sexually-assaulted-1.5234406

the gender issues are still strong in the music world and this is why some musicians do not like when some pieces of music, especially opera, are used by teenager figure skaters... it promotes the old misogynistic mentalities.

and still... women and music are treated like objects.... i am adding this because as a musician, i just cannot accept the "oh!!! the music is so beautiful, it should stand by itself!" comments when the music is sexist and/or racist

https://tasteofcountry.com/meghan-p...PE315ql-Lf4UfWPPtG9pDHVxlQBWvP2CUlHJwdhLTAjq0

 

[rain]

Agree, and I've always been fine with skaters simply using the music regardless of the story or context, as long as they did a good job interpreting it.
Strange Fruit is the first instance that got me thinking that in some cases you simply cannot ignore the lyrics, regardless of how good your interpretation of the music itself might be.

I'm another one who is generally fine with skaters using music without regard necessarily to the story or context. Case in point, I love the music from The Piano, but there are absolutely problematic themes in that story: the protagonist is a mail order bride, the "hero" of the story blackmails her into allowing him to touch her sexually until they're in a full-blown sexual affair, and her husband hauls her out into the woods in retaliation and cuts off her finger with an axe. Yet, I really don't require, or even want, skaters to attempt to portray this on the ice to what is just beautiful music. I'm also OK with Schindler's List. The main theme, to me, is one of the most beautiful pieces of modern classical music, and it would be a shame for skaters not to use it, though I actually prefer a less literal telling of the film (not a fan of Lipnitskaya's program, sorry).

But I don't know how I feel about Strange Fruit. It's such a weird choice. I just don't know that using it in the context of a competitive program works, on any level. I do think there's something to the division between fictional (opera, movie scores) and non-fictional. And it is completely impossible to divorce it from its context. Sinnerman, on the other hand, is a great choice. Great music.

 

[Ducky]

It feels weird to say but misogyny is so baked into Western culture that it seems almost pointless to use that with older works as they are, and focus upon how opera companies are staging them to address contemporary concerns. Kind of like how revivals of Kiss Me, Kate and My Fair Lady are trying to be less of their time and have more empowered women ... to varying degrees of success. (Otoh, why do contemporary composers still write librettos that are like 90% male singers when they know, KNOW, there is a dearth of upcoming male talent -looking at you Nico Muhly. Can we get some more roles for the ladies? Also, can we have more women being commissioned as composers, have more lady conductors, hire more female musicians, set designers, directors because the only women on set shouldn't be in the cast and costume departments.) Like the tragedy of Thais shouldn't be that she slept around but that she was shamed for it.

However, there are operas where I could see legitimate uproar* a skater choosing to skate to music from Death of Klinghoffer would be on dicey ground indeed.

*as in number of people complaining, not the validity of their complaints!

But I also think this all gets into the issue of time. Kind of like how we're not going to stop treating Charles Dickens as cannon because he was terrible to his wife (and he was!) because enough time has passed, it's easier to "forgive" the sins of older plays and operas than say Woody Allen or Louis CK.

 

[Mathman]

Sinnerman, on the other hand, is a great choice. Great music.

 

[Edwin]

And we still don't know if the commission has been withdrawn/changed?

Will there be something like JPN test skates or any regional of importance with a stream or video upload?

 

[TontoK]

And we still don't know if the commission has been withdrawn/changed?

You're joking, right? You don't really think that a couple dozen everyday fans complaining on a website is going to make JSF or her team abandon the time and money that have been invested in the program of a 15 year old junior skater that most of us had never even heard of until now? I'm certain that if they are even vaguely aware of the "controversy," they're thrilled about it. It's certainly caused the most buzz about her that I've ever seen on GS.

I mean, the discussion has been entertaining and educational from an academic and rhetorical perspective... but I certainly have no expectation of real impact.

 

[el henry]

Random fans will not make an impact, nor should they.

USFS officials, skaters, and maybe even judges, who could point out that this song is inappropriate, inappropriate beyond all the operas about prostitution and murder and mayhem etc, and even Big Spender for a 14 year old.

They could make an impact. We shall see.

 

[TontoK]

Random fans will not make an impact, nor should they.

USFS officials, skaters, and maybe even judges, who could point out that this song is inappropriate, inappropriate beyond all the operas about prostitution and murder and mayhem etc, and even Big Spender for a 14 year old.

They could make an impact. We shall see.

I have seen no evidence of that, but I'm not really clued in to that circle. Have you heard anything?

I doubt that USFSA is going to square off against JSF over a lesser ranked junior skater's music choice.

C'mon El. I know you're an idealist, but you're also a realist.

On the other hand... Maybe I'm just a cynic. We'll see how it plays out.

ETA: Good grief, USFSA is so averse to any sort of controversy that they won't even confront child abusers and predators in their ranks. But sure, I'll hold my breath for them to wade in here.

 

[TallyT]

The choreographer certainly is now aware through twitter. I doubt there will be much change - there was a fair amount of side-eyeing Shoma's original Great Spirits piece and costume (and Shoma had and has a massively higher profile than this girl) and while it was never even vaguely as controversial, and was toned down, he kept the jist of it.

I don't know how likely it is that Moa will become a big name in skating later, but it will hang around her neck if she does: the US press may not care about the sport but one thing they (like our own and too many others) do love is dirt, and if she ever got high enough to compete there, someone would pull the video up just for the scandal and clickbait.

 

[Edwin]

The choreographer certainly is now aware through twitter. I doubt there will be much change - there was a fair amount of side-eyeing Shoma's original Great Spirits piece and costume (and Shoma had and has a massively higher profile than this girl) and while it was never even vaguely as controversial, and was toned down, he kept the jist of it.

I don't know how likely it is that Moa will become a big name in skating later, but it will hang around her neck if she does: the US press may not care about the sport but one thing they (like our own and too many others) do love is dirt, and if she ever got high enough to compete there, someone would pull the video up just for the scandal and clickbait.

Nobody in Japan or Europe will probably know or care about the controversial subject projected by Strange Fruit. But like you said, in the US it will be brought up, but probably as a case of bad taste in choosing music for a skater, not as a provocation unless some radicals pick up on the commotion and want to raise their own storm.
So one should hope Moa will never advance this high in her competitions and keeps her reputation untarnished, or rather her club and federation who brought this upon her?

 

[Mathman]

You're joking, right? You don't really think that a couple dozen everyday fans complaining on a website is going to make JSF or her team abandon the time and money that have been invested ...

Random fans will not make an impact, nor should they.

The customer is always right. The customer is always right. The customer is always right.

If the show flops in Peoria, fix it before it gets to Broadway.

I think there is a pretty good chance that someone will say, "Oh dear, our attempt to be relevant and edgy and supportive of victims in a strand of U.S. history -- blew up in our faces. It was never out intention to offend anyone. We'll change this and that part .... Now, let's get back to working on that triple/triple!""

Wouldn't you?

 

[pesto]

Nobody in Japan or Europe will probably know or care about the controversial subject projected by Strange Fruit.

Plenty of people know Strange Fruit. Not many people watch junior figure skating, however, so I think it is unlikely to cause much of a splash beyond this niche world.

For me, this doesn't just cross a line, it crashes through it with great violence. And I say that as someone who can't normally be bothered with all the bosom-hoicking about musical choices.

 

[CellarDweller]

I truly doubt that the music is going to be changed.

Viewership of senior level skating events is no longer what it used to be, so I can't imagine that many people will see the program in the first place. I think the only way there will be any hope of it changing is if a high-profile person of color hears about it and makes it public knowledge via social media, or if an organization that is focused on the African-American community finds out about it and makes a point to publicize it.

That being said, I have to agree with the majority, the song is not one that should be used for a figure skating competition, specifically by someone who is not a part of that community and has no way of understanding the historical importance of that song, and the horrific, real-life circumstances that the lyrics describe.

 

[TallyT]

Nobody in Japan or Europe will probably know or care about the controversial subject projected by Strange Fruit. But like you said, in the US it will be brought up, but probably as a case of bad taste in choosing music for a skater, not as a provocation unless some radicals pick up on the commotion and want to raise their own storm.
So one should hope Moa will never advance this high in her competitions and keeps her reputation untarnished, or rather her club and federation who brought this upon her?

That's harsh... I just don't know. I just know it's a horrible, horrible, totally unnecessary mess.

 

[Orlov]

I thought about this topic for a long time, read it while I was in the penalty box. This is a difficult topic.

You know, for the Russians the World War II was a terrible hammer blow on our country. We have a popular song from movie "Officers" - there are such words: "there is no family in Russia where are not remember own hero", 27 millions died - every seventh of my people, these numbers speak for themselves. I have a big family who lives in a small town where I come from. I remember the stories of my great-grandfather and great-grandmother when they were still alive.

About how my great-great-grandfather died in the first months of the war in the battle of Smolensk, how my great-great-grandmother hid my 13-year-old great-grandfather in the basement of their house during the occupation of a year and a half - he was a brunette with a large nose (and before the war they moved from western Ukraine where many Jews lived) it would be enough for the Nazis. Then there wasn’t much food as it is now - there were portions of bread to live on. And the great-great-grandmother and great-grandfather were in constant severe hunger for this year and a half cuz they two ate one mother's portion.

Or my great-grandmother was "ostarbeiter". Basically, she was a slave. She was 15 years old when she was taken to Germany, where she worked on a farm, she belonged to some woman named Martha. She worked all day, at night she was locked in a small barn, where she had a sleeping place. She was a slave for two years, until our army liberated her in 1945.

You know, people here don’t say “World War II” or something like that. For example, we say "it was a long time ago, even before the war" or "it was after the war" and everyone knows what is meant - what "war" are we talking about.

I wrote all this so that black people who read this understand how serious and personal it is for us.

I applied this theme to myself - what if some distant skater, some Mexican and Filipino would have made a figured skating program about the suffering of my people, for example, about the Blockade? Honestly? My attitude would be... wary, let’s say so. Cuz i remember how shocked when I saw a video on YouTube with two Brazilian girls who were asked “what do you think about the role of Russia in the WW II?”, and they answered - “What, Russia also had a world war II?" I can’t even describe my feelings in the first second after her answer... But if I knew that the program was done with respect, understanding what it means to us - well I would have nothing against such a program. He cares about our history, our suffering, he wants to understand and share our pain. Is it bad?

A somewhat similar example for me is the Zhenya' FS about 9/11. Many Americans scolded her. But I believe that it was done with respect. This program, of course, was done by Eteri too (not only Averbukh) who survived a terrorist attack in America and knew for herself what it this. It was this program that I accidentally saw on YouTube that led me to the world of figure skating. After watching I read on Wikipedia about 9/11 (before that I had only knowledge of a couple of short paragraphs from a history textbook), I felt compassion. Is it bad? Didn't Zhenya and Eteri bring a little rapport to this world with this?

Of course, the chances that a young Japanese lady will be able to do it with dignity are not very high (although we cannot deny this). But I believe that the chances that she and her team will try to be respectful are not so small. Why do we refuse them this?

I wonder what the opinion of black people about this situation?