Technique? (Lambiels' triple Axel)

[sillylionlove]

Ok so last night I finally watched Cup of Russia. A number of times during Lambiel's program they said that he only has a double axel this year because he's working on technique? What the heck does that mean? Hasn't he had a triple axel before? I am very confused and if anyone can explain this I would really appreciate it.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Certain skaters are 'branded' in figure skating forums.

Sarah Hughes - underrotated jumps.
Kimmie Meissner - presentation
Johnny Weir - feminine-like

I'm sure there are plenty more. Does a skater have to disprove this?

Lambiel and his 3A. For some posters, he can never get a gold medal because he's been lacking that jump for a couple of years. There is nothing else in his programs that would justify a gold medal. He is doomed. Others see him with excellent technique in quads, footwork, edging, moves-in-field, transitions, speed, musicality, and of course, spins. You be the judge.

Technique in stage dancing is discussed as executing moves with regard to definition, precision, correct posture, proper tempo (brio, adagio, etc.)

I'm not sure where it would fall in figure skating scoring. Is it in the TES or the PCS? - or both? - or neither?

Joe

 

[sillylionlove]

I didn't realize that he didn't have the 3A for a number of years. I thought that maybe he was having problems with it and needed to work on changing his technique to get it. Thanks for explaining it. You learn something new every day.

 

[manleywoman]

His 3A is his least consistent jump. Lambiel has said before that he finds a quad easier than a 3A. So I think he's going back to the drawing board to work on it this year in preparation for 2010. Smart if you ask me, since he's already Oly Silver Medalist and 2-time World Champ. If he's going to fix it, now is the time.

 

[gsrossano]

Hard to say what "working on technique" means without more info. When some skaters have trouble a triple jump, if it is thought the problem is with their technique for the jump, they go back to the double, rework the jump technique, and then try to work on the triple again. It might also mean that they have decided the time to get the 3A is a lost cause and they want to use the time to work on the technique of other things where they think they will get more points.

My guess is they mean the first thing.

 

[museksk8r]

I would hope Stephane is taking the same approach with relearning his 3Axel that Joannie took with relearning her 3Lutz. Taking it step by step and breaking the jump down by the basics. It took Joannie 2 years to make her Lutz a reliable jump. I'm not a skater, but I imagine relearning a jump consists of relearning the pattern on the ice into the jump, relearning the timing, the correct edge takeoff or where and when exactly to place the toe pick into the ice, the air position/where to position your arms into the take-off of the jump as well as when you are in the air and how tight to make your feet in the air, awareness of where you are in the air to ensure that the body line is straight and not tilted, making sure you know exactly when and how to check the jump on the landing to avoid a fall, where to breathe before and during the jump, knowing the right amplitude that works for yourself and the jump, knowing the correct/best way to fall in order to avoid serious injury, and knowing how to try and save the jump should the skater have a less than perfect air position and/or landing. Even the way a skater presents a jump requires attention to detail in terms of the speed going into and coming out of the jump, knowing the best transition going into it to earn the most points, and ensuring that the edge coming out is clean and that your arms present an effortless, rather than a labored, jump. There are so many factors involved and it can really take some time and be burdensome for the skater, but the end result is obviously worth it once the consistency is there. Skaters sometimes do have to relearn technique as they get older and their bodies change (weight management/body development). You really have to admire all the work involved to become an elite skater!!!

 

[Tinymavy15]

i would not go as far as to say that he "had" the 3 axel for a few years now. He tried them, yes, but always fell or popped into a double or a triple. He probably thinks that for now he can get by with a beautiful done 2 axel that will recieve high GOE points. His 3 axel has always been his nemice. By "working on his technique" he and his coach have started from the begining again with that jump. Lieterally learning it all over again and hopefullly he can shead the bad habit that he had that made him fall on it all the time.

 

[dwiggin3]

I think it's a wise idea if he hopes to have it next year or for the Oly. I thought I recalled the talking heads to TEB stating that Ashley Wagner and her coach know she has a flawed lutz and they do not plan to do anything about it this year - but will begin reworking it this summer. The commentators praised this move, saying it was better for her to try and get the exposure of the GP this season and work on the jump for next.

 

[Mathman]

Technique in stage dancing is discussed as executing moves with regard to definition, precision, correct posture, proper tempo (brio, adagio, etc.)

I'm not sure where it would fall in figure skating scoring. Is it in the TES or the PCS? - or both? - or neither?

I think it would be in the last three categories of Program Components. And indeed, Stephane always gets high marks in Performance/Execution, Choreography/Composition, and Intepretation no matter what he does on the tech side.

At Cup of China he fell twice on his quad (plus once in the short program) and did not do a triple Axel, but he still got straight 7's in these PSCs.

At Cup of Russia he did better, only falling on one of his quads. His PSCs in the three "artistic" categories were 7.90, 7.90, and 8.00. (!)

So Stephane seems to be the exception to the rule that you have to land your jumps to get high PCSs. (Weir and Buttle are the other two exceptions, although Johnny has been good at both this year).

From what I can remember the word from the Lambiel camp about the triple Axel was that he was experimenting with a new entrance, and wanted to hold off for a while before trying it out in competition. Maybe we will see it by worlds.

I haven't checked the records, but my recollection is that Stephane is about fifty-fifty on the triple Axel over the last couple of years. He landed a fully rotated one at last years Worlds, IIRC.

 

[Tonichelle]

you keep records of how many times a skater lands a jump?????

 

[Mathman]

you keep records of how many times a skater lands a jump?????

Well, the ISU does. it's right there in the protocols, just a click away! :agree:

 

[Tonichelle]

blah numbers!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

MM. good post. However auditioning a musical, one either has technique or one doesn't. Broadway choreographers demand excellent technique for their creative pursuits. They are not into teaching.

I believe it is not scoreable in figure skating. It can be seen throughout a program moreso with the 6.0 system and the 'whole package' concept. It could be mentioned about a skater who seems to be having an element problem but only for that element.

Mao goes into an axel the way I did, from a choctaw and not a back outside edge except of course, the choctaw is a Rback inside edge to a Lforward outside edge and up up and away. Maybe that is what Stephane is working on. It is quite rhymic to watch.

Joe

.

 

[fenway]

It's a shame he doesn't have his 3 Axel because that is one strong long program. It's one of those programs that show CoP era choreography doesn't have to be dull or monotonous.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It's a shame he doesn't have his 3 Axel because that is one strong long program. It's one of those programs that show CoP era choreography doesn't have to be dull or monotonous.

The problem with one who is branded is that if Stephane does everything else perfectly including a 2A, the forum comment will be he did not do a 3A, so his quads mean nothing.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

^ But then again, it's not forum chat that matters, it's what the judges think.

The trouble with being "branded" is that then the judges start looking to nitpick that one element and judge it more harshly. Like a skater who is known to flutz. The caller is going to be extra picky when that skater's turn comes around.

But it can work to a skater's advantage, too. If you have a "reputation" for doing something well (musical interpretation, for instance), the judges will be leaning in that direction before you even skate.