The 2008 Election

[gracefulswan]

.........I am afraid that you are right, Joe........sad that our country has come to this............42

most certainly... thanx to bush. i always sensed that he was thinking of the christian agenda as well when he decided to wage war in iraq without much support. who cares about support when you can achieve what you want by unilateral power? and he apparantly scored points for his reelection by this method... perhaps that was the main intent after all.

 

[BronzeisGolden]

I was listening to this woman caller on NPR today and I couldn't believe her audacity. She was very well spoken and I thought she might actually be reasonable, but then she said that Bush's election proved that "God had used the people to anoint his King" and that "the Constitution said nothing about the separation of church and state." Ugh....people like this irritate me to no end. Have they ever read the Constitution? Can they read? Can they not see behind Bush's tricks? His good ole, Christian platform is such a sham! He pays such convincing lip service.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I heard stories about Giullani when he was working in the office of the prosecutor in NY. Apparently he would take full credit for what his colleagues were working on. His performance after 9/11 was excellent and many newyorkers thought anyone in his position would have done the same. IMO, he should be taken carefully. He'll play well with Bush as he gathers up ideas from his subordinates. But the whole new Bush administratrion and the Supreme Court appointees will have us reading the bible at work. I can hear the flight attendants on their flights saying a prayer as we take off which should scare the hell out of me. :sheesh:

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I was listening to this woman caller on NPR today and I couldn't believe her audacity. She was very well spoken and I thought she might actually be reasonable, but then she said that Bush's election proved that "God had used the people to anoint his King" and that "the Constitution said nothing about the separation of church and state." Ugh....people like this irritate me to no end. Have they ever read the Constitution? Can they read? Can they not see behind Bush's tricks? His good ole, Christian platform is such a sham! He pays such convincing lip service.

Bronze - There are people in 'liberal' New York who believe that the US is the 'promised land' and that god's attention is drawn to the US exclusively. The fact that Americans killed all those native americans was their manifest destiny in order to have this 'promised land' is irrelevant. Killing is not really serious when compared to love without marriage. You figure.

Joe

 

[Ptichka]

"the Constitution said nothing about the separation of church and state." Ugh....people like this irritate me to no end. Have they ever read the Constitution? Can they read?

Unfortunately, it's not just the Republicans either. My support for Joe Lieberman 4 years ago ended after he said, "The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, not freedom from religion". Technically, he is correct.

What worries me also is that I see the country returning to 1920's. We have the biggest income gap since then, and we have the biggest Republican majority since, I believe, Hoover. Scary? You bet!

Joe, at least there is some solace in knowing that we both live in states that are more insulated from all this then many others. I mean, even if Roe v. Wade is overturned, I don't see either NY or Mass doing away with it. Though, of course, they did pass the federal 3d term abortion ban WITHOUT ANY OUT FOR A WOMAN'S LIFE!!! How exactly can Senators decide what is and what is not in the woman's health interests?!!! I have nothing against outlawing elective 3d term abortions -- 6 months should be enough to make the decision, and carrying the baby for another 3 months isn't going to break the mother, but shouldn't she have a right to end her pregnancy if she could die otherwise?! Apparently not...

As to G-d's intent... I keep quoting Lincoln. When he was asked if he thought G-d was on the North's side, he said, "I am more concerned with us being on G-d's side".

 

[Dee4707]

I am really missing JFK, Jr.more and more! Anyone know if Caroline has any political aspirations?

Piel, You and me both. I really think that JFK, Jr. was heading for a political career. I've always wondered why he died when he did??? :sheesh: :sheesh:

I don't think that Caroline has any political aspirations. She seems to be very shy and really doesn't like being in the limelight.

Dee

 

[JonnyCoop]

I think we have basically become a Christian State like Iraq is a Moslem State, Israel is a Jewish State, and India is a Hindu State. There is freedom of religion in all four of them but you know how laws will prevail.

There is no longer separation of church and state in the USA, imo.

Joe

Exactly. And the real irony is, we appear to being halfway to having our very own Taliban. Only we don't have anyone to liberate US.

 

[euterpe]

I think liberals are running around like Chicken Little proclaiming the sky is falling.

The US is NOT becoming a Christian state. Most of the recent legal immigrants have not been Christian, and they are having children, something many women born in the US are putting off into their late 30's while they climb the career ladder. In 25 years, English will be a secondary language in the US, most of the population will not be of European origin, and whites will be the new minority group.

Roe vs. Wade will NOT be overturned, no matter how many fundamentalist Christian groups want that to happen. CNN (hardly a right-wing news channel) did a story a couple of weeks ago on what would happen in the Supreme Court if Bush was re-elected or if Kerry became President. The conclusion was that under a Bush 2nd term, nothing much would change; the Court would not become either more conservative or more liberal. Under Kerry, though, there would be major changes---and some might not be to everyone's liking.

The country that should be concerned about a religious government is Canada. If something is not done about immigration policies, Canada could find itself in 25 years under Islamic religious rule. Now THERE is something to be alarmed about.

 

[Grgranny]

Talking about abortions, Kansas is well known as the state to go to if you want an abortion. There's a clinic in Wichita that is busy doing one after another. This business of mental health just makes the $$$$Drs. evaluate them with the idea that they are mentally ill and it would be bad if they didn't do the abortions. Just makes me sick. :banging: :boohoo:

 

[mike79]

The country that should be concerned about a religious government is Canada. If something is not done about immigration policies, Canada could find itself in 25 years under Islamic religious rule. Now THERE is something to be alarmed about.

Please explain your logic here because I fail to see it. If anything Canada is moving further away from religion influencing political decisions.

What's the problem with Islam? It's a peaceful religion that is directly connected to Christianity and Judaism. It's the fundamentalists like Bin Laden who give it a bad name. I'd be more afraid of right-wing Christian fundamentalists taking over the West. Oh wait...Bush was re-elected.

Moral majority or Immoral majority?

 

[euterpe]

An article about the rapidly growing Islamic population of Canada:

http://www.adamyoshida.com/2004/08/coming-of-moslem-canada.html

 

[Ptichka]

I think liberals are running around like Chicken Little proclaiming the sky is falling.

Euterpe,

First of all certainly you have to take everything you read in this thread with a grain of salt, since we are indeed very upset about the results of this election. I don't think anyone really thinks of our government as Taliban-like. Now to contradict you:

You are correct that Roe v. Wade will likely not be overturned in the next 4 years. However, I guarantee that that is going to be the litmus test for the judges. A lot of abortion-related issues are coming up, and I don't like the move toward valuing the fetus's life over the mother's -- this is a very slippery slope. Also, with all the attention on the supreme court, we're losing track of the federal benches. Bush's appointees have been exceedingly conservative, more so than any of his predeccessors' were.

Other religion-related issues I feel strongly about relate to religious materials in public places such as schools or courthouses. To be fair, the currect supreme court has upheld the 1st ammendment, but I am not sure how long that will continue.

I believe the religious slant is also hindering our efforts world wide to fight AIDS. Sure I'd like people to only have marital sex, yet this is not realistic in many cultures. Brazil, for instance, only started having success with its HIV prevention programs when they abandoned this approach. I consider it highly hippocritical of the US to tell other countries how to conduct their business or risk losing our financial support -- while this is sometimes reasonable, in this case it is self defeating. It is in our interest to reduce HIV rates word wide, and each country knows best how to talk to its people (where we should put pressure on countries is when they don't do anything to combat this problem).

Along the same lines is the administration's refusal to grant money to wordwide organizations that offer abortions among other services. The truth is that American women are very lucky. A pregnant teenager here has choices. She can give the baby up for adoption and know that most likely it will find a good home -- trust me, this is absolutely not the case in most of the world; in Russia for instance orphanages resemble something out of Dickens. She can also have the baby; while it is incredibly difficult, she can still go to school and get a career; while it is certainly more difficult for single mothers to find a husband, it is certainly not rare. In other parts of the word this is just not so. In India, for instance, a pregnant unwed mother may face life of total ostracism and poverty for herself and her children. Chances are, if she wants to have an abortion, she will. Without international organizations, though, it can be unsafe enough to kill her.

Getting back to issues close at hand now. I do think that my objections to the weight of the religious right are more psychological than practical. I just do not understand such reasoning! This makes me, and many others like me, feel like we don't belong. To me, values in government mean something other than faith in G-d. It saddens me to feel like I am a minority.

P.S. BTW, it's not just Christianity. I am just as frustrated with Senator Lieberman, and he is Jewish like me.

 

[mike79]

I'm sorry euterpe, but that is just a very narrow-minded article that is full of BS. Seems like the kind of crap the KKK would spew just to support their own beliefs.
It is an opinion piece that has no value beyond being what the author thinks it to be.

If someone can actually read the Koran and find the word 'Jihad' it would be extremely interesting since it's not actually in there.

"An average Moslem is a lot like an average Christian in that they don’t really take the things that their holy books say very seriously. Oh, sure, they might read them from time to time- and they might even pray on a daily basis: but they aren’t actively preparing for the end of time of wishing for a crusade (or Jihad) to wipe all of the unbelievers off the face of the Earth. The difference comes in the “extreme” wings of both religions. As a general rule, a Christian “extremist” these days is someone who opposes technical instructions for homosexual sodomy being distributed to second-graders and a Moslem “extremist” is someone who likes blowing up Pizza restaurants full of Jews."

And what about those Christian fundamentalists who shoot doctors who perform abortions? Religion is religion and there are those who take it at face value and those who take it to the extreme. Both Christians and Muslims have been known to use extremism and interpret their respective holy books in the wrong manner. To say that Islam is the only religion that has been used for the wrong reasons is ridiculous. Just look at the Crusades, not to mention the ongoing conflict in Ireland.

Next time do some research instead of posting hate-filled nonsense.

 

[Antilles]

I had to stop reading that article before it made me sick. I am Canadian, and in no fear of of my country becoming an Islamic state. I don't think they will ever have a large enough population to outvote all other religious groups, and I don't think Canadians would elect them if they actually did try to turn this land into an Islamic state. Plus, the whole idea is silly and based on no real logic.

I believe the Sharia law issue is being discussed so that Muslims can settle their own non-legal disputes, but as far as I know, it hasn't actually come to pass. Talking guarantees nothing.

There is mention of wife beating etc being condoned in the Koran. I believe if you look at the Bible closely and literally, you will find similar stories. The importance is in the interpretation. Ýou can't just point fingers at one group.

Jihad? First off, millions of people have been killed in the name of Christianity and other religions, so you can't only point the finger at Muslims. You also cannot equate all Muslims with Al-Qeada. That's like assuming all Christians are members of the Ku Klux Klan. Yes, Jihad is actually part of the Muslim religion, but it does not mean what everyone thinks it means. Jihad is "designed to defend Islam and allow its social practice" "Many Muslims interpret the jihad as an allegorical or spiritual struggle" (Many People, Many Faiths; Robert S. Ellwood). Essentially, it means that Muslims can defend themselves if their faith is attacked. It's only a method of self-defence. It's never meant to be a tool for aggression. Again, those Muslims who interpret it as an act of "holy war" should probably not be calling themselves Muslims.

 

[mike79]

I had to stop reading that article before it made me sick. I am Canadian, and in no fear of of my country becoming an Islamic state. I don't think they will ever have a large enough population to outvote all other religious groups, and I don't think Canadians would elect them if they actually did try to turn this land into an Islamic state. Plus, the whole idea is silly and based on no real logic.

I believe the Sharia law issue is being discussed so that Muslims can settle their own non-legal disputes, but as far as I know, it hasn't actually come to pass. Talking guarantees nothing.

There is mention of wife beating etc being condoned in the Koran. I believe if you look at the Bible closely and literally, you will find similar stories. The importance is in the interpretation. Ýou can't just point fingers at one group.

Jihad? First off, millions of people have been killed in the name of Christianity and other religions, so you can't only point the finger at Muslims. You also cannot equate all Muslims with Al-Qeada. That's like assuming all Christians are members of the Ku Klux Klan. Yes, Jihad is actually part of the Muslim religion, but it does not mean what everyone thinks it means. Jihad is "designed to defend Islam and allow its social practice" "Many Muslims interpret the jihad as an allegorical or spiritual struggle" (Many People, Many Faiths; Robert S. Ellwood). Essentially, it means that Muslims can defend themselves if their faith is attacked. It's only a method of self-defence. It's never meant to be a tool for aggression. Again, those Muslims who interpret it as an act of "holy war" should probably not be calling themselves Muslims.

Antilles, you rock. :agree:

 

[Antilles]

Thanks!

 

[heyang]

Unfortunately, it's way to early to speculate about the next Presidential Election. really wish they were next year.

I can't believe I will have to listen to Bush's folksy demands for 4 more years. As I mentioned in another thread, I can't believe that we re-elected a president who has no understanding of how to view other people's viewpoints. This shortsightedness can sometimes lead to short term results, but usually long term disaster follows.

My friend's husband has been back from Iraq since February - he missed the 10 months of his baby daughter's life. He's had a difficult time adjusting - I'm sure he's thinking about the insurgencies which started shortly after he left. He told his wife that the troops knew that the time was approaching and things were not going well as claimed by the White House. Now, he's also got to realize that it is more than likely that he will be sent back in July after just experiencing a taste of married life (they were only married 3 months when he was activated & had to live on base for 2 months on base before going overseas) and getting to know his daughter. I'm glad he got to hear his daughter call him Daddy.

On Nightline last night, they analyzed that Bush really only has 2 to 2 1/2 years to push his agenday - then, he'll be a lame duck. Can't wait for that day to come.

 

[bronxgirl]

Even before he becomes a "lame duck" there's an awful lot of damage he can do to our judiciary, and to our standing in the world.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Depending on how many problems GW creates in the next four years, we have to wonder if there is a Republican to replace him. The democrats will have a race between Wesley and Hilary. Can you imagine a woman President?

Joe

 

[bronxgirl]

I can imagine a woman, a black, a Hispanic, all sorts of things besides what's sitting there now.