The Death of Figure Skating as Art

[Tavi...]

I am stunned in recent years that everyone who does some kind of performing is referred to as "an artist". The terms art and artist and artistry have become diminished over the years.

Care to give some examples? I mean, artistry is subjective - there's just no way around it, and that's true of all art forms & all kinds of artists and performers. The cans of merde discussed above? For me those would never, ever be art. Yet for someone who looks at art conceptually, those cans may represent valid artistic expression. I happen to love the Tchaikovsky piano trio, but a friend of mine thinks it's an awful piece of music. We're both trained musicians. Who's right? Is Yulia L an artistic skater, as the people who love her believe, or is she lacking in artistry, as others believe? The perception of art and artistry depends on what you respond to, what you value, and what yardstick you're measuring with.

 

[Interspectator]

Having a well choreographed and 'artistic' program that is unique and well executed may not pull enough points in COP, but there is a definite benefit...It seriously increases your chances of being invited to Ice Shows during and after your competitive skating career.
That's incentive, isn't it?

 

[Meoima]

Care to give some examples? I mean, artistry is subjective - there's just no way around it, and that's true of all art forms & all kinds of artists and performers. The cans of merde discussed above? For me those would never, ever be art. Yet for someone who looks at art conceptually, those cans may represent valid artistic expression. I happen to love the Tchaikovsky piano trio, but a friend of mine thinks it's an awful piece of music. We're both trained musicians. Who's right? Is Yulia L an artistic skater, as the people who love her believe, or is she lacking in artistry, as others believe? The perception of art and artistry depends on what you respond to, what you value, and what yardstick you're measuring with.

Agree. We have come this far. Art in the modern sense is not something definite. I have never thought FS should be called as an art. It's more like a sport requiring good presentation from the athletes. It doesn't have to be balletic. Some skaters never take ballet lessons.

 

[Manitou]

I hope it will never be art. If it becomes art then it will mean automatic exclusion from the Olympics and the competitive sports community, and it will mean an instant death of the entire discipline. No TV, no money, and in turn, no athletes. Just memory of the past. And FYI: the death of this forum...

 

[karne]

Karne made a good point too about the death of skating is due to differences between skaters not being embraced. Personally I would rather skaters be themselves ... if anything, they should strive to develop their actual skating skills and difficulty rather than attempt to be "artistic". No amount of choreographic changes will turn Aaron into an Abbott or Mura into a Takahashi.

Yes. :yes: Thankyou. (See, there is something we agree on!)

Regarding your cheap shot, though ... I suppose "good skaters" like Takahashi/Kostner/Kwan/etc. have never fallen on their behinds? I suppose you think when Farris consistently falls on his quad we should automatically disregard him being a "good skater"?

I'm not holding any of them up as the perfect example of what good skating should be, though.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The reality is, most skaters aren't "artists" like Dai or Kwan. No reduction of jumping passes or shorter spins/footwork will change that.

Everyone who participates in the sport doesn't need to specifically BE "an artist". With more freedom and time to focus on it, their skating can be sculpted into something more artistic. Plus the people who are very artistic, and actually get rewarded for it, push others to be better. For example, Todd Eldredge. Definitely not an artist but he eventually learned to really feel the music and present himself and had many very good programs. If he had come up under the rules we've had the past 8 years his skating would have been like...Evan Lysacek at 2009 Worlds. Blech.

And I agree with gkelly. You want pure artistry, go to an ice theatre or watch exhibitions.

Nobody said pure artistry. Ever. It's supposed to be a combination of technical and artistry. That is what makes figure skating interesting and relevant. The impressive technical feats combined with theater. Doing each at the same time makes both of them more difficult.

The popularity of the sport will rise with a greater understanding of its technical intricacies and with the technical envelope being pushed.

Not really. People simply don't CARE about purely technical skating for the sake of itself. There are thousands of things to do in life and watching people do the same predictable thing over and over on the ice is not one of them. As a purely technical/athletic activity ice skating falls considerably below gymnastics on the scale of what is interesting.

I mean look at Kostner/Kim/Asada's clean under-CoP Olympic freeskates - they were extraordinary both technically AND artistically.

They were hardly extraordinary artistically. Nobody reveres these performances for that reason and very few will go back to continually rewatch them in the future as they would listen to a favorite song. They are celebrated mainly for "rising to the occasion" and for Nationalistic reasons.

----

The fact that this is not possible anymore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVj7blSdj2o

Should say how much has been lost. Character. Pacing. Finesse. Charm. Musicality. Huge jumps with purpose. Great edges and control in service of the music.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Never doing more than two crossovers in a row may be technically difficult but it has little to do with trying to discover the secrets of the music and how to best present it.

Doing six crossovers into an element is neither technically difficult nor having much to do with discovering the secrets of music, but that is beside the point. Figure skating is a sport and doing the elements and preparing for those elements takes up a vast majority of the time. It would be interesting to see, in a short program, how much time is not spent doing a jump, spin, or footwork (or building speed to prepare for the element). I'd say less than 30-45 seconds in most instances. So the question becomes, how much weight do we place on that 30-45 seconds? Should that outweigh superior execution of elements for the other 2:00? It's not an easy question. However, in a sport my opinion is that placements should lean towards technical superiority over artistry. The risk in figure skating comes from doing difficult elements, not presenting more artistic choreography. Risk should be rewarded in sports when successfully executed. Plus, artistry is less objective and becomes more of a popularity measure that whether someone skates well.

The one improvement that I could think of is shortening (by a lot) the time it takes to execute the footwork sequences. That would give the skaters more time to actually present the program.

 

[Mathman]

The fact that this is not possible anymore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVj7blSdj2o

Quite so. A program like this is not possible any more.

The core of Kurt's program is the slow and lyrical "Time Goes By" part. It would earn scarcely a single CoP point in modern judging. It is like a Haydn string quartet, with an opening technical statement and some third movement fireworks. But the substance of the work is in the slow second movement.

 

[RABID]

In a way I can understand Blade's frustration. It's easy and convenient to say art is subjective and thereby lets one off the hook of addressing a real concern. The fact is though we have artist not everyone can be one. Why is that? If art is subjective then by that logic everyone should be an artist right? Wrong. Anyone can dabble in art and anyone can dabble with the appreciation of art. But let's just say there is an art AND science to viewing as well as creating TRUE ART and like any other language the more articulate the more nuanced the communication. The quest is to find meaning or significance in a piece that communicates in a way SPECIFIC to the art form where words as a substitute would fail. Saying something was done really well or with heart is nice enough but a true artist usually has bigger goals for his or her audience. However as others have said this is a competitive sport and the reality is that that puts severe limitations on how REAL the supposed art of a skater's performance can be. But at the same time there is as I have stated an art and science to appreciating art as well and it is my opinion that that is truly what separates an artistic skater from a non artistic one; they have a deeper relationship with the music they are skating to and it translates then to their skating.

 

[gkelly]

The fact that this is not possible anymore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVj7blSdj2o

Should say how much has been lost. Character. Pacing. Finesse. Charm. Musicality. Huge jumps with purpose. Great edges and control in service of the music.

Why is it not possible?

There's no reason why a skater can't perform a program with character, pacing, finesse, charm, musicality, huge jumps with purpose, great edges and control in service of the music and also tailor that program to score well in IJS.

Of course, you have to find a skater who can do all those things, which is hard enough in any era.

But if they did, they would be rewarded.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

However as others have said this is a competitive sport and the reality is that that puts severe limitations on how REAL the supposed art of a skater's performance can be. But at the same time there is as I have stated an art and science to appreciating art as well and it is my opinion that that is truly what separates an artistic skater from a non artistic one; they have a deeper relationship with the music they are skating to and it translates then to their skating.

But this is subjective, isn't it? You and I can look at the same program and I might find it relates well to the music, whereas you think there is no relationship to the music. For example, I loved Caro's Bolero, especially the footwork. Others thought it was cheeky and affected.

 

[Meoima]

Why is it not possible?

There's no reason why a skater can't perform a program with character, pacing, finesse, charm, musicality, huge jumps with purpose, great edges and control in service of the music and also tailor that program to score well in IJS.

Of course, you have to find a skater who can do all those things, which is hard enough in any era.

But if they did, they would be rewarded.

Agree. It's not the rule the problem. It's just we need to wait for the talents to shine. :yay:

 

[Alba]

For example, I loved Caro's Bolero, especially the footwork. Others thought it was cheeky and affected.

Yep. Here is one. I liked the footwork, but only that part.

 

[Skater Boy]

I didn't realise falling on your behind was what "good skating" is.

That was Hanyu this year my friend. Its interesting all those people who whined about Chan andhis falls but when Hanyu does it, it is okay.

 

[Alba]

That was Hanyu this year my friend. Its interesting all those people who whined about Chan andhis falls but when Hanyu does it, it is okay.

They all had falls. Men's FS was a big mess, but in that mess he had done enough (thanks to his SP as well) to win the event.
Rightly so, I think. Don't you?

 

[Mathman]

Its interesting all those people who whined about Chan andhis falls but when Hanyu does it, it is okay.

Actually, that is interesting. I think it is because Yuzuru Hanyu is so polite and modest, so earnest and self-effacing -- he seems downright cuddly. Who would want to say something mean about him?

Not that Patrick isn't cuddly. But people do seem to hold him to a more exacting standard.

 

[unico]

Neo-classicism, impressionism, cubism, surrealism, pop art, german expressionism... Art is not confined by any boundaries (look up Marcel Duchamp and "Dada-ism"!). Who is to decide which style is the best? We now live in a post-modern or a "post-post-modern" society, in which essentially, art is anything that you want it to be, not "art has a higher meaning" or even "art must be beautiful". Look at all the crappy artists of websites like deviantART, I might think they're crappy, but they have millions of fans who would protest otherwise. Art IS purely subjective, and it is constantly changing.

With figure skating, a judged sport, the fine balance of display of technique (objectively judged) and "artistic merit" (subjectively judged) is always precariously teetering back and forth. But who is to decide artistic merit, and the worth of it? For some, Lambiel's abstract arm movements can be viewed as choreographic genius, to others it may just look silly. Who is anybody to tell a teenager interested in learning about figure skating that Kurt Browning's 1993 FS (as brilliant as it is) is so much more artistically superior to Takahashi's Blues for Klook at the 2012 Worlds or Jason Brown's LP at this year's nationals? Hanyu's Parisienne Walkways at the Olympics? In order to even possibly appeal to new generations of younger fans, figure skating needs to keep moving forward to keep any sort of relevance and not uphold artistic standards of the past as what should be standards of today. Just like with new art periods or "-isms", perhaps figure skating will shift away from what you personally enjoy, but new fans might emerge all the same.

 

[Interspectator]

Neo-classicism, impressionism, cubism, surrealism, pop art, german expressionism... Art is not confined by any boundaries (look up Marcel Duchamp and "Dada-ism"!). Who is to decide which style is the best? We now live in a post-modern or a "post-post-modern" society, in which essentially, art is anything that you want it to be, not "art has a higher meaning" or even "art must be beautiful". Look at all the crappy artists of websites like deviantART, I might think they're crappy, but they have millions of fans who would protest otherwise. Art IS purely subjective, and it is constantly changing.

With figure skating, a judged sport, the fine balance of display of technique (objectively judged) and "artistic merit" (subjectively judged) is always precariously teetering back and forth. But who is to decide artistic merit, and the worth of it? For some, Lambiel's abstract arm movements can be viewed as choreographic genius, to others it may just look silly. Who is anybody to tell a teenager interested in learning about figure skating that Kurt Browning's 1993 FS (as brilliant as it is) is so much more artistically superior to Takahashi's Blues for Klook at the 2012 Worlds or Jason Brown's LP at this year's nationals? Hanyu's Parisienne Walkways at the Olympics? In order to even possibly appeal to new generations of younger fans, figure skating needs to keep moving forward to keep any sort of relevance and not uphold artistic standards of the past as what should be standards of today. Just like with new art periods or "-isms", perhaps figure skating will shift away from what you personally enjoy, but new fans might emerge all the same.

I Agree.
and also I agree with Mathman that Hanyu may be viewed less harshly when he makes mistakes because of his sweet personality.

 

[Alba]

Neo-classicism, impressionism, cubism, surrealism, pop art, german expressionism... Art is not confined by any boundaries (look up Marcel Duchamp and "Dada-ism"!). Who is to decide which style is the best? We now live in a post-modern or a "post-post-modern" society, in which essentially, art is anything that you want it to be, not "art has a higher meaning" or even "art must be beautiful". Look at all the crappy artists of websites like deviantART, I might think they're crappy, but they have millions of fans who would protest otherwise. Art IS purely subjective, and it is constantly changing.

With figure skating, a judged sport, the fine balance of display of technique (objectively judged) and "artistic merit" (subjectively judged) is always precariously teetering back and forth. But who is to decide artistic merit, and the worth of it? For some, Lambiel's abstract arm movements can be viewed as choreographic genius, to others it may just look silly. Who is anybody to tell a teenager interested in learning about figure skating that Kurt Browning's 1993 FS (as brilliant as it is) is so much more artistically superior to Takahashi's Blues for Klook at the 2012 Worlds or Jason Brown's LP at this year's nationals? Hanyu's Parisienne Walkways at the Olympics? In order to even possibly appeal to new generations of younger fans, figure skating needs to keep moving forward to keep any sort of relevance and not uphold artistic standards of the past as what should be standards of today. Just like with new art periods or "-isms", perhaps figure skating will shift away from what you personally enjoy, but new fans might emerge all the same.

Amen!:thumbsup:

 

[AprilS]

Neo-classicism, impressionism, cubism, surrealism, pop art, german expressionism... Art is not confined by any boundaries (look up Marcel Duchamp and "Dada-ism"!). Who is to decide which style is the best? We now live in a post-modern or a "post-post-modern" society, in which essentially, art is anything that you want it to be, not "art has a higher meaning" or even "art must be beautiful". Look at all the crappy artists of websites like deviantART, I might think they're crappy, but they have millions of fans who would protest otherwise. Art IS purely subjective, and it is constantly changing.

With figure skating, a judged sport, the fine balance of display of technique (objectively judged) and "artistic merit" (subjectively judged) is always precariously teetering back and forth. But who is to decide artistic merit, and the worth of it? For some, Lambiel's abstract arm movements can be viewed as choreographic genius, to others it may just look silly. Who is anybody to tell a teenager interested in learning about figure skating that Kurt Browning's 1993 FS (as brilliant as it is) is so much more artistically superior to Takahashi's Blues for Klook at the 2012 Worlds or Jason Brown's LP at this year's nationals? Hanyu's Parisienne Walkways at the Olympics? In order to even possibly appeal to new generations of younger fans, figure skating needs to keep moving forward to keep any sort of relevance and not uphold artistic standards of the past as what should be standards of today. Just like with new art periods or "-isms", perhaps figure skating will shift away from what you personally enjoy, but new fans might emerge all the same.

Definitely! I'm a new fan (1+ years only) but I don't think that I would be a fan under 6.0, where everything jump, spin, etc wasn't clear(ish)ly scored (or at least recorded in protocols) as in COP. I personally enjoy many current programs much more than renowned "older" programs I see on youtube too... in fact, so much so that I wonder if a part of it might be nostalgia for the older fans. But then again, I'm one of those who consider FS an "aesthetically pleasing sport" rather than an art. I certainly wouldn't watch FS if I wanted to watch an art (and I wouldn't be a new FS fan! )