The Death of Figure Skating as Art

[Alba]

I don't like Sir Rattle a bit. But I'd rather it's him who is in charge of BPO than Daniel Barenboim. I was kinda glad when sir Rattle won the vote to conduct BPO.

I agree with you on Rattle and Barenboim (you know what I think about him ). I do like Rattle though, from the "new" generation.

I wonder if one day, BPO can play in the background and our beloved skaters perform in the front?

That will be FANTASTIC!
I don't think they'll agree though. They think they're God's Orchestra, which is true.

 

[kwanatic]

Neo-classicism, impressionism, cubism, surrealism, pop art, german expressionism... Art is not confined by any boundaries (look up Marcel Duchamp and "Dada-ism"!). Who is to decide which style is the best? We now live in a post-modern or a "post-post-modern" society, in which essentially, art is anything that you want it to be, not "art has a higher meaning" or even "art must be beautiful". Look at all the crappy artists of websites like deviantART, I might think they're crappy, but they have millions of fans who would protest otherwise. Art IS purely subjective, and it is constantly changing.

With figure skating, a judged sport, the fine balance of display of technique (objectively judged) and "artistic merit" (subjectively judged) is always precariously teetering back and forth. But who is to decide artistic merit, and the worth of it? For some, Lambiel's abstract arm movements can be viewed as choreographic genius, to others it may just look silly. Who is anybody to tell a teenager interested in learning about figure skating that Kurt Browning's 1993 FS (as brilliant as it is) is so much more artistically superior to Takahashi's Blues for Klook at the 2012 Worlds or Jason Brown's LP at this year's nationals? Hanyu's Parisienne Walkways at the Olympics? In order to even possibly appeal to new generations of younger fans, figure skating needs to keep moving forward to keep any sort of relevance and not uphold artistic standards of the past as what should be standards of today. Just like with new art periods or "-isms", perhaps figure skating will shift away from what you personally enjoy, but new fans might emerge all the same.

Art only dies when you define it and at the very least project expectations from it onto others. It's not meant to be something we come to expect...it's something that challenges and changes us. It's alive when it offends. IMO.

I hope if I ever find figure skating or anything for that matter uninspiring I simply walk away. YMMV.

Both of these perfectly sum up my opinion on the matter. :thumbsup:

 

[Meoima]

That will be FANTASTIC!
I don't think they'll agree though. They think they're God's Orchestra, which is true.

Yes, BPO is famous for overpowering the soloist. But someone like Plushy might add some balance to them.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It's not about artistic standards of the past, shingalas. It's about the present and the sport failing to evolve. Nobody ever said anything about Browning from 1993 being absolutely superior in every way to the current programs you mentioned. The point is we should have learned from the past and built upon it and know how to appreciate a wide variety. We should be refining the artistic elements of programs into their most perfect form possible for ice skating. The sport right now should be at a much higher point than it was in the past. You mention all of those different forms of art...which is something that figure skating no longer supports. It used to, potentially, but now it doesn't.

 

[Brenda]

Doing six crossovers into an element is neither technically difficult nor having much to do with discovering the secrets of music,

Yes it does. It's called buildup. Or pacing. It's an important concept in many forms of media. You want a sense of anticipation and you need contrast.

My favorite example. A whopping 9 back crossovers, but how glorious was that delayed axel once he finally got to it? It certainly would have been less effective if he had done 5 seconds of arm choreography and then a measly two or three crossovers instead.

It must be said though that opening with a delayed axel followed by a double axel was the formula of the late 60s/early 70s, as opening with a triple lutz combo for ladies or quad for men is today, but credit must be given to skater/coach/choreographer who makes the formulaicness come second to how well it matches the drama of the music.

 

[Interspectator]

It's not about artistic standards of the past, shingalas. It's about the present and the sport failing to evolve. Nobody ever said anything about Browning from 1993 being absolutely superior in every way to the current programs you mentioned. The point is we should have learned from the past and built upon it and know how to appreciate a wide variety. We should be refining the artistic elements of programs into their most perfect form possible for ice skating. The sport right now should be at a much higher point than it was in the past. You mention all of those different forms of art...which is something that figure skating no longer supports. It used to, potentially, but now it doesn't.

Sooooo, what is the most perfect form possible for ice skating? And who will agree with you about that?
I find that figure skating these days does have a wide variety as Shingalas pointed out, Jason Brown's River dance and Hanyu's Parisienne walkways, Fernandez Charlie Chaplain, Daisuke's Blues for Klook, and I'll throw in Jeremy Abbot's program of your choice as some people like him very much artistically as well. all very different, all very enjoyable and beautiful to watch...but to varying degrees according to your personal preference. Also, all within COP rules and high-scoring. Skating has evolved artistically and there is a wide variety. Skating is at a higher point technically now than in the past and subjectively, I enjoy present programs even more than past ones with their blend of extreme technical difficulty and artistry.
Which rules would you change to boost artistic interpretation for figure skating? How would the judging work?

 

[Alain]

believe me

No, thanks.

 

[Alain]

I find Ice Dance more artistic, but also less exciting to watch.

Because they are chasing for technical points skating the same things.

I haven't seen what BoP has to offer.

 

[supsu]

The fact that this is not possible anymore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVj7blSdj2o

Should say how much has been lost. Character. Pacing. Finesse. Charm. Musicality. Huge jumps with purpose. Great edges and control in service of the music.

For me, that program was boring as ****. I've watched figure skating also during 6.0 but it's now that i'm passionate about it. Mainly cause i now understand how they get points. It' s sport with an artistic flair to it. If everything is done with art in mind who would put jumps to their program in the first place. I think that so many programs like Takahashi's, Chan's etc. were amazing skating and talent with artistic flair. Some skaters are horrible in performing other's and that looks terrible. I don't care for that. But if u have 10 quads there i'm still impressed. The artists on ice like some consider Takahashi to be will be appreciated and remembered and they can perform their art to people all they want in shows and so on. I just can't understand how in a sport someone walking around on ice with his HANDS IN HIS POCKET is considered good. I thought it was ridiculous.

 

[Mathman]

I just can't understand how in a sport someone walking around on ice with his HANDS IN HIS POCKET is considered good.

He's doing Humphrey Bogart, :yes:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GPEGs8lqi...gjtsk/s400/Humphrey+Bogart+-+Lauren+Bacal.jpg

 

[Interspectator]

He's doing Humphrey Bogart, :yes:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GPEGs8lqi...gjtsk/s400/Humphrey+Bogart+-+Lauren+Bacal.jpg

I like it! it just goes to show the changing ideas of fashion and beauty from then till now. The girl still registers as very beautiful in my mind but Mr. Bogart...hmmm.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It's not about artistic standards of the past, shingalas. It's about the present and the sport failing to evolve. Nobody ever said anything about Browning from 1993 being absolutely superior in every way to the current programs you mentioned. The point is we should have learned from the past and built upon it and know how to appreciate a wide variety. We should be refining the artistic elements of programs into their most perfect form possible for ice skating. The sport right now should be at a much higher point than it was in the past. You mention all of those different forms of art...which is something that figure skating no longer supports. It used to, potentially, but now it doesn't.

I actually think the sport is evolving. With a greater emphasis on technical elements, more intricate choreography in between elements instead of the past where there was way more simple stroking around the ice, the sport is becoming more challenging as a sport and less theatrics. Maybe skating is not evolving the way YOU want it to, but it's definitely evolving. To say figure skating no longer supports art is incorrect too... look at Takahashi's Blues for Klook, Kostner's Bolero, or (not that you agree) Chan's Four Seasons, or many programs from D/W and V/M in ice dance.

Competitive figure skating may not support art to the extent that you like, so maybe go watch an artistic exhibition then where there is little emphasis on elements.

Also, refining artistic elements to a most perfect form is impossible as everyone's definition of artistry (heck, "perfect" artistry... whatever that means) is different. It's fine to have an opinion that skaters aren't skating the way you want them to, but I certainly don't think the sport has died as an art by any means. You're assuming the art aspect is what makes skating popular, but I think people watch for the athletic performance. If it dies as an art at the expense of being more respected as a sport, maybe that's not such a bad thing.

 

[HanDomi]

I actually think the sport is evolving. With a greater emphasis on technical elements, more intricate choreography in between elements instead of the past where there was way more simple stroking around the ice, the sport is becoming more of a sport and less theatrics. Maybe skating is not evolving the way YOU want it to, but it's definitely evolving. To say figure skating no longer supports art is incorrect too... look at Takahashi's Blues for Klook, Kostner's Bolero, or (not that you agree) Chan's Four Seasons, or many programs from D/W and V/M in ice dance.

Competitive figure skating may not support art to the extent that you like, so maybe go watch an artistic exhibition then where there is little emphasis on elements.

Also, refining artistic elements to a most perfect form is impossible as everyone's definition of artistry (heck, "perfect" artistry... whatever that means) is different. It's fine to have an opinion that skaters aren't skating the way you want them to, but I certainly don't think the sport has died as an art by any means. You're assuming the art aspect is what makes skating popular, but I think people watch for the athletic performance. If it dies as an art at the expense of being more respected as a sport, maybe that's not such a bad thing.

This ^


I enjoy watching current FS. No one is holding anyone to watch something that don't like, and then trying to bash it because someone don't like. That doesn't mean everyone thinks the same.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I actually think the sport is evolving. With a greater emphasis on technical elements, more intricate choreography in between elements instead of the past where there was way more simple stroking around the ice, the sport is becoming more challenging as a sport and less theatrics. Maybe skating is not evolving the way YOU want it to, but it's definitely evolving. To say figure skating no longer supports art is incorrect too... look at Takahashi's Blues for Klook, Kostner's Bolero, or (not that you agree) Chan's Four Seasons, or many programs from D/W and V/M in ice dance.

I'm kind of in the middle between your stance and BoP's. I do miss some of the older programs in which every moment is not spend trying to earn points. However, I also think that if one program has more technical content than another, that content must be rewarded because figure skating is a sport. Otherwise, the subjective measures (artistry) outweigh the objective measures (technical elements) and this leads to more controversial results.

 

[Mathman]

It is technically very challenging to skate with your hands in your pockets. Try it! This should be rewarded by the CoP (in skating skills, for instance). :yes:

 

[Blades of Passion]

I actually think the sport is evolving. With a greater emphasis on technical elements, more intricate choreography in between elements instead of the past where there was way more simple stroking around the ice, the sport is becoming more challenging as a sport and less theatrics.

Well of course it is evolving technically (although not in every way...we never see people try a combination as difficult as 4Toe+3Toe+3Loop anymore, for example). It's not a good thing that there are less theatrics, however. Results now are not any less controversial. They are actually usually more controversial because a single underrotation call or level call can completely change the placements of a competition. Not only are the results more controversial, they are less understandable to audiences at the same time.

As for "simple stroking", I again must emphasize how it is part of the skating language. This recent quest to remove as many crossovers from programs as possible has destroyed an essential part of choreography in skating. That steady glide across the ice creates the feeling of watching something otherworldly and makes it feel like time is extending. Using different speeds and tempos of crossovers allows you to convey different ideas as well. Masterfully stroking around the ice is a skill actually worth rewarding. Dick Button would always comment on when a skater would "caress the ice". You can't do that anymore.

BTW, you really need to stop saying "maybe you should just watch exhibitions". That's a huge insult to those of us who have actually trained for competition skating and care about competitive skating. Stop acting like there are only two possibilities - "pure sport" (with a little bit of presentation thrown in) and "exhibition". In actuality the skating that most people care about is competitive skating where artistry counts. It's the combination of the technical and the artistic and the aura of competition which creates the perfect storm for skating and lets it achieve its most exciting form.

 

[skatedreamer]

In actuality the skating that most people care about is competitive skating where artistry counts. It's the combination of the technical and the artistic and the aura of competition which creates the perfect storm for skating and lets it achieve its most exciting form.

This, this, this a gazillion times over! For me, anyway. I'm thrilled to see skaters pushing the technical envelope and hope they will always continue to do so. But I want the increased technical prowess to be used in furtherance of artistry and not as an end in itself.

The best way to explain my point of view is that I wouldn't go to a piano recital to hear someone just play scales, no matter how superb the technique. OTOH, when that technique is part of a stunning performance of a Bach Partita or Chopin Etude...well, the result is magic, pure and simple. That's the effect I want to see on the ice.

 

[Interspectator]

BTW, you really need to stop saying "maybe you should just watch exhibitions". That's a huge insult to those of us who have actually trained for competition skating and care about competitive skating. Stop acting like there are only two possibilities - "pure sport" (with a little bit of presentation thrown in) and "exhibition". In actuality the skating that most people care about is competitive skating where artistry counts. It's the combination of the technical and the artistic and the aura of competition which creates the perfect storm for skating and lets it achieve its most exciting form.

The difference in opinion is that I and many others posting on this thread feel that there is quite a bit artistry in the current programs. Whereas you believe it is 'dead'. Artistry does count in the programs we see today. --But maybe not as much as you would like and not the kind of artistry you appreciate.

I would like to see even more creative and interesting programs in the future... but ones with extra crossovers don't come first to my mind as a prominent way to get there.

As much as I loved Kurt Brownings program which you shared the link to it just didn't strike me as 'the perfect storm for skating at it's most exciting form.'
I didn't mean to insult you when I mentioned ice shows as a better place to see art on ice... I meant it quite literally. The better artists are there because artistry increases long after the technically difficult skating is no longer possible for a skater.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I would like to see even more creative and interesting programs in the future... but ones with extra crossovers don't come first to my mind as a prominent way to get there.

I agree. I don't find crossovers artistic at all. I don't find transitions all that artistic either, but they are more difficult. Much like how skating on one foot is not more artistic than skating on two feet, but skating on one foot is harder and rewarded.

 

[Icey]

He's doing Humphrey Bogart, :yes:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GPEGs8lqi...gjtsk/s400/Humphrey+Bogart+-+Lauren+Bacal.jpg

The problem with that is many persons of a certain age, don't know who the h*** Humphrey Bogart was, and unless you know that and the film, the piece is not going to go over for you in the same way as it might for some one who knows its foundation. I know who Humphrey was and have seen the film, but sorry, like another poster, I thought the program fell flat.