The Judging Controversy Thread

[starrynight]

Again, Again, we have to start from SP to judge whether Sot deserved the gold or not.

Did Sot deserve the SP score she earned? Absolutely NOT. +35 PCS and 2nd placement with 3T+3T? Only lady in top 3 who received lv4 in Stsq? With THAT program?

How can you possibly justify Sot's SP score? There should have been much more score difference from SP, between Yuna CaroK and Sot.

For LP : It is simply wrong to compare Yuna 2010 to Yuna 2014 to justify Sot's win. Yuna 2014 needed to top Sot 2014, not Yuna 2010 to win gold. And did she do that?

In every single category of PCS, Yuna Kim should have gained lot more points than Sot. There had to be way more score difference.

How about GOE? Yuna's 3Lz+3T and 3F was even smoother and higher than before. They satisfy height, ice-coverage, effortlessness, bit delayed, etc to satisfy +2 GOE category at least. Her 3Sal, and especially 2A were outstanding too. Look at the flow in and out! Yuna is not an ordinary jumper. She is the best ever jumper produced by COP.

Her quality of Jumps were not worse than 2013 worlds, but GOE was way lower than she got before.

How about Sot's jump GOE? Like someone already pointed out, one judge gave automatic +3s to EVERYTHING she jumped. How can that be justified? How can her 3Lz 3T can get +1-+2, or even +3 GOE with wrong edge on Lz and very much borderline(if not URed) 3T ? How about her 2 footed double jump which was very much URed in the combination?

If these were corrected, Sot's TES would be somewhat at least 3 pts lower than she actually got.

Tech panel. This tech panel gave UR to somewhat borderline triples to all the ladies from SP, but not to Russians. No edge calls to Russians. Level 4 stsq only to the Russians.

I mean, how can ISU let Russian Judge to be a technical Panel in the Olympics in Russia? How can that happen?

Sot may have slight, slight edge over Yuna for doing 3L, but the difference in TES should have been much less. I don't even want to go to PCS category.

Combined with SP, no, the result does NOT make any sense.

Yuna outskated Sot, period.

Well said.

 

[stella luna]

Adelina's facial expressions of joy reminded me of Oksana Baiul in '94.

I thought Adelina deserved to win the gold. Yuna's choreography was disjointed and didn't have the attention to detail we're used to expecting from her; there was a lot of recycling of old moves. The most exquisite programs of this event were Mao's and Caro's. Yuna's skating wasn't as good as in Vancouver. Yuna's LP from Vancouver would have won - pure technical brilliance with competent choreographic interpretation. But not here.

Yuna's most artistic program was Danse Macabre, but it is hard to put her other programs on that level. To call her an artist is a bit much. The argument that her PCS are much better than Sotnikova's and especially Caro's is weak. Yuna's extension and body line weren't fantastic either. I'd say she was on par with Sotnikova.

Yes, the crowd was full of partisan ingrates from the beginning to the end of the skating events.

People made it sound as though Adelina fell or did a gross UR on her jumps, but no; it was simply a double that can exist or not. Her choreography was as good as Yuna's. As mentioned, Yuna's "tango" was no artistic breakthrough. The only lady on the podium who had the best PCS was Caro, not Yuna nor Adelina.

And what about Mao - she attempted and accomplished more technically than anyone in this event and probably ladies' figure skating history, regardless of edge and UR calls. Artistically, both Chopin and Rachmaninov suited her elegant and lovely style. My heart no longer aches for her as I did yesterday - she showed everyone her potential and did it great style and courage.

Gracie Gold - I saw her as someone exquisite last season. I didn't understand why people mocked her to be a robot. She wasn't and she isn't now. Zoueva brought out the true American ice princess look. She has elegance and she can attack when needed. It's been a while since skating has seen such a transformation since Michelle did Salome. It turns out I was right she can be the next Caro or Caro-esque, but I won't be like some posters who claim to be right or that they're oracles. I don't care about being right or wrong - I just want the people I like to do well ;-)

Yuna's TES as well as PCS could have been slammed or had reasons to be - close landings, possible URs, edge calls, lesser technical content, and unimaginative choreography. These didn't used to be her problems. Tara is wrong. Yuna's skating isn't as good as before. Her Korean coaches, reported to be her first coaches, are dimwits. They're constantly dumbfounded. They don't know why she gets her certain scores. She might as well go Michelle Kwan and coach herself. They didn't give her the proper guidance for creating a Bolero-level program. As for training, there is no one better on technique than her. She definitely needed a "real" coach, and that isn't like Jason Brown's situation who actually has a "real" coach whom some people don't consider one.

Caro could have done better technical content. She had several opportunities to add a 3toe but didn't. She conceded the technical content, and that was her choice. She skated a masterpiece that's surely as beautiful and memorable as Michelle's Concerto de Aranjuez or Rachmaninov Second Piano Concert.

The only thing I don't agree with is having Adelina's PCS so high and being nearly 8 points ahead. I think it was close. In the old system, it would be a 5-4 split situation that would have given the gold to Adelina.

It just looks like this current system is much ado about nothing. All these experts and mathematical formulas still can't root out the opportunistic subjectivity of the judges. They'll increase/decrease the GOEs when they want to and to prop or demote skaters as they see fit. In the old system, at least judges would be forced to give skaters some recognition of what was executed; now they have GOEs to enhance or discount what was accomplished. Actually, this current system works the same as the old one! Might as well go back. At least it's easier to understand and it gives everyone great pleasure to hear 6.0s!

Sorry guys, I thought Adelina deserved it. She fought for it and skated with so much youthful joy. Even more joyful than Tara in 1998. She was an underdog and she rose to the occasion. Everyone was coddling Lipnitskaia and Plushenko, hailing them as Olympic gods here to save us mere mortals. But it was Sotnikova, the forgotten young Russian underdog, to redeem Russian skating and give them what they really wanted. The Russians, with the current state of their country, needed this. I'm proud of this youngster.

All this talk about corruption and Putin's mafia threatening people, well, they're probably realities. But Sotnikova made a case for herself. She earned her gold.

This was an incredible Olympics. The only exception was the Men's bloody event, but so many people rose to the occasion in dance and ladies. I was fully expecting a splatfest, but I was wrong. I'm glad to be wrong. So many memories to cherish.

 

[Skater Boy]

I thought Adelina deserved to win the gold. Yuna's choreography was disjointed and didn't have the attention to detail we're used to expecting from her; there was a lot of recycling of old moves. The most exquisite programs of this event were Mao's and Caro's. Yuna's skating wasn't as good as in Vancouver. Yuna's LP from Vancouver would have won - pure technical brilliance with competent choreographic interpretation. But not here.

Yuna's most artistic program was Danse Macabre, but it is hard to put her other programs on that level. To call her an artist is a bit much. The argument that her PCS are much better than Sotnikova's and especially Caro's is weak. Yuna's extension and body line weren't fantastic either. I'd say she was on par with Sotnikova.

Yes, the crowd was full of partisan ingrates from the beginning to the end of the skating events.

People made it sound as though Adelina fell or did a gross UR on her jumps, but no; it was simply a double that can exist or not. Her choreography was as good as Yuna's. As mentioned, Yuna's "tango" was no artistic breakthrough. The only lady on the podium who had the best PCS was Caro, not Yuna nor Adelina.

And what about Mao - she attempted and accomplished more technically than anyone in this event and probably ladies' figure skating history, regardless of edge and UR calls. Artistically, both Chopin and Rachmaninov suited her elegant and lovely style. My heart no longer aches for her as I did yesterday - she showed everyone her potential and did it great style and courage.

Gracie Gold - I saw her as someone exquisite last season. I didn't understand why people mocked her to be a robot. She wasn't and she isn't now. Zoueva brought out the true American ice princess look. She has elegance and she can attack when needed. It's been a while since skating has seen such a transformation since Michelle did Salome. It turns out I was right she can be the next Caro or Caro-esque, but I won't be like some posters who claim to be right or that they're oracles. I don't care about being right or wrong - I just want the people I like to do well ;-)

Yuna's TES as well as PCS could have been slammed or had reasons to be - close landings, possible URs, edge calls, lesser technical content, and unimaginative choreography. These didn't used to be her problems. Tara is wrong. Yuna's skating isn't as good as before. Her Korean coaches, reported to be her first coaches, are dimwits. They're constantly dumbfounded. They don't know why she gets her certain scores. She might as well go Michelle Kwan and coach herself. They didn't give her the proper guidance for creating a Bolero-level program. As for training, there is no one better on technique than her. She definitely needed a "real" coach, and that isn't like Jason Brown's situation who actually has a "real" coach whom some people don't consider one.

Caro could have done better technical content. She had several opportunities to add a 3toe but didn't. She conceded the technical content, and that was her choice. She skated a masterpiece that's surely as beautiful and memorable as Michelle's Concerto de Aranjuez or Rachmaninov Second Piano Concert.

The only thing I don't agree with is having Adelina's PCS so high and being nearly 8 points ahead. I think it was close. In the old system, it would be a 5-4 split situation that would have given the gold to Adelina.

It just looks like this current system is much ado about nothing. All these experts and mathematical formulas still can't root out the opportunistic subjectivity of the judges. They'll increase/decrease the GOEs when they want to and to prop or demote skaters as they see fit. In the old system, at least judges would be forced to give skaters some recognition of what was executed; now they have GOEs to enhance or discount what was accomplished. Actually, this current system works the same as the old one! Might as well go back. At least it's easier to understand and it gives everyone great pleasure to hear 6.0s!

Sorry guys, I thought Adelina deserved it. She fought for it and skated with so much youthful joy. Even more joyful than Tara in 1998. She was an underdog and she rose to the occasion. Everyone was coddling Lipnitskaia and Plushenko, hailing them as Olympic gods here to save us mere mortals. But it was Sotnikova, the forgotten young Russian underdog, to redeem Russian skating and give them what they really wanted. The Russians, with the current state of their country, needed this. I'm proud of this youngster.

All this talk about corruption and Putin's mafia threatening people, well, they're probably realities. But Sotnikova made a case for herself. She earned her gold.

This was an incredible Olympics. The only exception was the Men's bloody event, but so many people rose to the occasion in dance and ladies. I was fully expecting a splatfest, but I was wrong. I'm glad to be wrong. So many memories to cherish.

I do think Kostner stalks her j umps too much and this should be rfelecgted in transitions and goes. I have gieven up where to put this as it is not a conspiracyh theory bbut it seems in Sochi all the siver medallists who could have won did not win because the judges went for technical brilliance over pcs. Kim,Chan and virtue and moir and to a point S and K all could hav scored much higher pcs than the gold medallists. They are all champions in my books the public scrutiny and pressure was horrific. I sadly think Julia will be gone next year with her small jumps and if her body changes which I suspect will happen. She doesn't have the strength. As for the "bad" Russian fans when i watched they seemed to be cheering for good skating ie Kim they really were excited for her when she landed all those jumps in the second half.

 

[vegarin]

The fact is that skating cannot get rid of subjectivity. If there is subjectivity involved, there is possibility of controversy. Do you want to keep subjectivity in skating? In other words, do you want to keep artistic aspect of figure skating? Do you mean that skating either should throw away the subjective artistry or should be banned from the Olympics?

Those are good questions, but perhaps some transparency would be a good idea to convince people that everyone is fairly - as much as possible - considered and scored in the same way.

Sigh. If only Adelina won by a smaller margin, then at least it wouldn't raise an eyebrow or two. Not that it would be all that much more acceptable, but this does make it look like it was pre-planned. Even if it wasn't, it certainly doesn't look good, either.

 

[Skater Boy]

I really don't know what to say to the judges.

I do not understand how Sot's jumps got some +3s in GOE.

I do not understand +9s in her PCS in both her SP and LP.

I do not understand the overall standings.

I cannot believe that Sot's LP was best ever according to COP.

This is sad.

I thought Adelina's LP was second best and the scoring was quite generous.

 

[jkun]

I believe the judges have strong reasons for backing up Adelina, and they have prepared for the backlash they will receive for making Adelina win over the queen. Someday some judges who has judged this competition might speak out after he/she is retired. Over the years, this controversy will die down. History repeats. This is not the first time. It is certainly not the last.

I don't think anyone wants another conspiracy scandal. Another scandal will kill figure skating.



These people are not helping to make skating more popular. They are helping to kill skating.

You really think the internet is going to kill skating? In moments like these you can tell that skating and its ability to be easily targeted by politiking is what is killing skating.

 

[Skater Boy]

lol. i convinced my roommates to watch FS with me (yay! a first! ) and they were both like 'i don't get it; how can you trip and still win a gold medal?' i was like i don't know what to tell you; how DOES one trip and still win gold? ugh.

Ah remember Hanyu fell and won gold and people were worried about Chan.

 

[usethis2]

No matter how people try to spin Yuna's FS, they cannot explain the score disparity (the lack of it, to be precise) in the SP. No matter how people try to spin Adelina's FS, they cannot explain her GOEs and PCS, such as these:

Judge 7's protocol for Adelina:

GOE:
3
3
3
3
3
-1 (the combo jump where she stepped out)
3
3
3
2
3

PCS:
9.5
9.5
9.75
9.75
9.75

 

[bara1968]

I thought Adelina's LP was second best and the scoring was quite generous.

No, you have to consider the rule change after Vancouver. if you take out spiral sequence from Vancouver, Adelina's Lp becomes the best ever. disgusting.

 

[yuki90]

the thing is this is fixed from the beginning.
In SP, YuNa's BV is 2 point higher than Sotnikova and thier PCS was almost same.this is fixed. Everynone in the world knows whats going on.In FP, BV gap between YuNa and Sotnikova is only 3.5 points.The gap of total BV in both SP and FP is less than 2 point.
and Sotnikova made mistake on her jump.

 

[Skater Boy]

So you're saying there is a home advantage. I don't disagree with that. I don't think it's due to corruption but rather the judges being swayed by the audience reaction.

that's what I said; human reaction to all the cheering - and people Adelina didn't exactly fall all over the ice. I have seen far bigger crimes. I love yuna and herstyle but Adelina hadjoy on her side and she worked it.

 

[usethis2]

that's what I said; human reaction to all the cheering - and people Adelina didn't exactly fall all over the ice. I have seen far bigger crimes. I love yuna and herstyle but Adelina hadjoy on her side and she worked it.

If those are your criteria, Ashley Wagman would like to have a word with you.

 

[Skater Boy]

I'm not trying to start anything because I don't care who won the ladies program...

However, I find it funny that when it was ice dance, people complained because the "favorites" for gold took gold and the favorites for silver took silver. When that happened, people were in outrage because the "predetermined" favorites and rankings took what they were predicted to take. BUT, now that there's an upset in women's, people are mad because non-favorites got better scores and higher rankings than many "favorites."

- I get people's outrage....inflated and deflated scores everywhere. What's new? It's the Olympics. I'm not condoning what's taken place, but I also am not loving that I feel like people become so emotionally motivated due to their own favoritism that they're blinded by the possibility that maybe the medalists are in the right positions (regardless of potentially inflated or deflated scores)....but again, maybe they're not?

That being said, I agree that some smelly stuff has happened. I don't get how a corrupt judge was able to judge this event. I don't get how someone who has such strong close ties to Russia and skating was able to judge... It is b.s. without a doubt.
However, I don't agree that anyone was in with Russia on a fix. Personally, I think had Russia had a dance team or men's single they could've swindled into first place, they probably would've - after all, didn't you know? This is "Putin's Olympics."

Favourites is a bad or poor choice of word. The team predicted to win - D and W won dance whether they deserved it or the judges just predetermined it in spite of their skating is another issue. an argument cna be amde S0ochi was about techincal and that seems to be the theme otherwise many could argue Vand M and Yuna would ahve gold again.

 

[andyjo24]

People are saying that Sotnikova won by difficulty, but Yu-na and Sot's base values only differ by 2.94 when combining both the short and the long......... Sotnikova won by getting way higher GOEs.

 

[yuki90]

People are saying that Sotnikova won by difficulty, but Yu-na and Sot's base values only differ by 2.94 when combining both the short and the long......... Sotnikova won by getting way higher GOEs.

Yes. GOE factor on spins is only 50 percent. YuNa is not a spinner but her spin is above average.
They got almost same PCS in both SP and FP.

 

[usethis2]

Exactly. And Adelina's GOEs are like these:

Judge 7's protocol for Adelina:

GOE:
3
3
3
3
3
-1 (the combo jump where she stepped out)
3
3
3
2
3

PCS:
9.5
9.5
9.75
9.75
9.75

I think people should look at the protocols instead of listening to certain commentators. According to this judge, evidently Adelina is the best skater ever and there is no room for improvement in that performance. :disapp:

 

[jehan215]

People are saying that Sotnikova won by difficulty, but Yu-na and Sot's base values only differ by 2.94 when combining both the short and the long......... Sotnikova won by getting way higher GOEs.

Truckloads of GOEs... while Yuna hardly got any

 

[WeakAnkles]

I think with internet and these crazy over the top conspiracy theory makers, skating will be killed sooner than later.

Conspiracy theories abound because there is a documented history of cheating in Olympic figure skating. Those who were found guilty of cheating were not only given lenient sentences, but were reinstated back in positions of high authority. If the ISU is thrown out of the Olympics they have NO ONE to blame but themselves. They have brought this on themselves. They will have killed the sport themselves.

 

[vegarin]

Agree. She has to deliver or the judges cannot give the victory to her. She did deliver.

So her victory hinges on whether she can deliver, not at all on whether Kim can deliver?

And don't tell me Kim didn't deliver. They both delivered. The judges went with Adelina.

And I love how people say Yuna wasn't good enough to get her scores from Vancouver but Adelina was. The extent of Adelina's delivery can be questioned exactly the same way as people defending her scores are trying to tear apart Yuna's as not good enough and Mao's with too many mistakes and who the hell knows why Caro isn't good enough. Maybe some people enjoyed her skating more over Kim's, but Kim also delivered, flawlessly, and there are people who appreciated Kim's skating more. That's a matter of taste, not the matter of judging.

 

[starrynight]

The fact is that skating cannot get rid of subjectivity. If there is subjectivity involved, there is possibility of controversy. Do you want to keep subjectivity in skating? In other words, do you want to keep artistic aspect of figure skating? Do you mean that skating either should throw away the subjective artistry or should be banned from the Olympics?

Of course, subjectivity kicks in. Who denies it? But why do we have to boost this already shaky judging basis, "subjectivity," with allowing a judge/wife of the president of Russian Federation in the panel? You know, the Olympics is different from a GP circuit or Worlds in that it is the most conspicuous chance to demonstrate national power to the world. By far stronger temptation to rig the game or to conspire....