The Judging Controversy Thread

[ladyepheu]

About the judging issue being influenced by home country. They have studied are trained to take into account home advantage when judging when evaluating connection to the audience. They should have read documents relating to the audience when learning all the criteria for judging.

Before being mere people, they are professionals at the Olympics and should display professionalism in their judging of relative connection with the audience with account to home cooking. Do you want your judge at court to be swayed by the audience shouting in the stands instead of relying on their training and evidence when making a judgement for conviction or innocence? As all professionals in all professions, they should act as so, especially in an event that is broadcasted worldwide and impact people's perception of our sport. Sure, it's just figure skating, not saving lives. But for all those athletes who spent their life dedicated to the sport, figure skating is their lives, and the judges should respect that enough to be professional at their jobs. People like Brian Joubert and others from the 6.0 era have always connected with the audience no matter where they went and didn't get astronomical numbers in their PCs and interpretation compared to people of the same caliber, jeremy abott also didn't in his SP and he connected with the audience (AND he's an awesome interpretor). Besides, audience connection is only one aspect of IN. And Adelina is a good interpretor, but not enough to match her IN scores of 9.43. I've already shown the difference in a previous post.

Anyway, I will stop posting now. I think 6 posts is my limit. lol. Back to my life, I've vented enough to feel satisfied for now. At least the thing I got from this whole thing is newfound appreciation of Yuna. I'll be able to go back and watch her old routine with a new eye now that my love for Mao and Carolina gets shared with her. Thanks everyone who read my posts and appreciated them.

@skatedream thanks, that made me smile!
@kslr0816 I'll correct them, thanks!

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

That is home cooking. I don't think the Japanese crowd would be too enthusiastic for Yuna if her and Mao were close after the SP at the upcoming worlds either.

Too be fair to the Japanese they gave Yulia a standing ovation at GPF for both SP/FS and arguably she was Mao's biggest threat. I give a and for that!!

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Doesn't the rule/notion imply cheering for your skater only, and being silent or even booing/cheering the mistakes of other skaters?

How do you police crowd behavior though?

 

[kslr0816]

How do you police crowd behavior though?

right, so i'm saying the judges should take into consideration crowd behavior, good OR bad, which, according to ladyepheu, they are trained to and should:

About the judging issue being influenced by home country. They have studied are trained to take into account home advantage when judging when evaluating connection to the audience. They should have read documents relating to the audience when learning all the criteria for judging.

Before being mere people, they are professionals at the Olympics and should display professionalism in their judging of relative connection with the audience with account to home cooking. Do you want your judge at court to be swayed by the audience shouting in the stands instead of relying on their training and evidence when making a judgement for conviction or innocence? As all professionals in all professions, they should act as so, especially in an event that is broadcasted worldwide and impact people's perception of our sport. People like Brian Joubert and others from the 6.0 era have always connected with the audience no matter where they went and didn't get astronomical numbers in their PCs and interpretation compared to people of the same caliber, jeremy abott also didn't in his SP and he connected with the audience (AND he's an awesome interpretor). Besides, audience connection is only one aspect of IN. And Adelina is a good interpretor, but not enough to match her IN scores of 9.43. I've already shown the difference in a previous post.

Anyway, I will stop posting now. I think 6 posts is my limit. lol. Back to my life, I've vented enough to feel satisfied for now. Thanks everyone who read my posts and appreciated them. ^^

thanks again for your valuable insights, and great detail in all your posts. good luck with skating!

 

[skatedreamer]

In other words, the dead silence for nearly all other skaters except for the Russians had impact, either subconsciously or through an interpretation of and into PCS, did play a role in the scoring?

To the extent that a skater "feeds" off audience reaction, the lack of response could have affected the quality of some performances. This might have been especially true for someone like Jason Brown who connects so well with audiences -- if a skater doesn't get the reaction he/she is expecting, they might start thinking "OMG, what's wrong," then lose concentration. Then the performance could lose its spark or (worst case), they might do a Jeremy and have a close encounter w/ the boards & the ice. (I think Jeremy thinks too much and can probably psych himself out worse than any Russian audience, but that's JMO.) OTOH, even a positive response could also cause a lapse in focus.

This is a lot of touchy-feely speculation, but I do think audience response can be a factor, for better or worse. Again, only one person's opinion.

 

[kslr0816]

To the extent that a skater "feeds" off audience reaction, the lack of response could have affected the quality of some performances. This might have been especially true for someone like Jason Brown who connects so well with audiences -- if a skater doesn't get the reaction he/she is expecting, they might start thinking "OMG, what's wrong," then lose concentration. Then the performance could lose its spark or (worst case), they might do a Jeremy and have a close encounter w/ the boards & the ice. (I think Jeremy thinks too much and can probably psych himself out worse than any Russian audience, but that's JMO.) OTOH, even a positive response could also cause a lapse in focus.

This is a lot of touchy-feely speculation, but I do think audience response can be a factor, for better or worse. Again, only one person's opinion.

i think you're right on on the point of how a skater reacts to the crowd - i.e., wagner (ignoring all her other speak), did mention there was a difficulty in skating to a dead silent audience. i'm sure yuna could practically hear the thoughts of the audience: "fall! fall!" lol jk

however, i think we were speaking in regards to how much the judges should let it impact their scoring, and where genuine connection with audience stops and where home cooking and flat out bias start. but even so, hard to connect with a dead silent audience that's probably rooting against you. if anything that should get an even higher PCS lol.

 

[sk8in]

Right, but I have to imagine the judges would have enough sense to limit how much that impacts their scoring? In other words, shouldn't they have, in this instance, taken into consideration that they know how much the crowd will be cheering for Adelina and Yulia, regardless of how well they performed?

i.e., didn't the crowd cheer when Yuna had a wobble on one of her landings? should that play a role also, as a further negative for Yuna? Doesn't the rule/notion imply cheering for your skater only, and being silent or even booing/cheering the mistakes of other skaters?

Exactly. The crowd connection criteria is there to reward people who move the crowd with their performance, NOT their nationality. Also it is one of many factors. It is basically minutia in the PCS score, and would only be worth debating if Adelina had great PCS attributes otherwise.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Ah, good point. I'm assuming though, that can't be of significant amount, can it?

BTW, if true, it's the best explanation yet as to why Adelina and Yulia's PCS were as high as they were.

I would say in what some see as a toss up like this was (between 3 girls IMO) every little point counts. Wouldn't you agree. I do think things like reputation, crowd reaction, and federation pressures are things that will NEVER be on a protocol sheet but will ALWAYS be in plain sight and able to affect scores. IIWII

 

[kslr0816]

I would say in what some see as a toss up like this was (between 3 girls IMO) every little point counts. Wouldn't you agree. I do think things like reputation, crowd reaction, and federation pressures are things that will NEVER be on a protocol sheet but will ALWAYS be in plain sight and able to affect scores. IIWII

of course - i meant that it shouldn't be a significant amount - and according to ladyepheu, it shouldn't, and the judges should make a distinction between genuine connection, and just cheering for their nationality.

and I do agree - Carolina should be in this conversation every bit as Yuna. Probably the only reason she isn't, is because she was awarded the bronze instead of the silver - not tha tthat's right.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Exactly. The crowd connection criteria is there to reward people who move the crowd with their performance, NOT their nationality. .

You only find this in the Olympics mostly. It is a nation vs nation event. Even Figure Skating! Yeah it exsists to some extent in the GP and other Cups but in the olympics it is pitted as nation against nation. This nation is very proud. I can respect that. Just because I would have been more supportive of the other skaters doesn't mean I'm right does it. I'll just feel better about myself for not being a giant Hoo-Ha. From the reports i've recieved from Sochi the whole crowd thing is a little blown out of scale. A lot of the people at the FS events may never see the sport again. Be glad for them that they were able to see what this sport has to offer.

 

[jenaj]

You know what? Go check and then come back.

P.S. I noticed you deleted your post. I appreciate that.

I meant Soviet domination. I remembered the tanks in Prague.

 

[usethis2]

The way and length to which people will go to justify corruption is unbelievable. That the crowd wasn't such a factor is observed in plain sight if one gleaned at the protocols. I thought we were over that.

It's not like Yuna's, Mao's, Carolina's performance did not mesmerize audience.

 

[usethis2]

So far the justifications offered are:

1) Judges being bullied by audience: These judges attended many events and it's not the first time they dealt with home-town crowd. They know better. Even more damning evidence is the levels given out by the tech panel. (were they hypnotized by Adelina's magic, too?) They were absolutely calculated. (Flutz, Under-rotation, Steps, etc.)

2) 1 more Tripple! 1 more Tripple!: The BV difference between Yuna and Adelina in SP+FS is less than 2 points. It's preposterous to suggest that Adelina did more or anything more difficult.

3) Adelina gave 100%, Yuna held back: No one believes that skaters hold anything back on the Olympic ice.

These are rebuttals. There are lots more positive evidence that shed lights on corruption.

Edit: Unless, of course, what people are suggesting by judges being personally biased is that Adelina knows the judges personally through her federation and received favors - then sure that seems believable.

 

[Mrs. P]

To the extent that a skater "feeds" off audience reaction, the lack of response could have affected the quality of some performances. This might have been especially true for someone like Jason Brown who connects so well with audiences -- if a skater doesn't get the reaction he/she is expecting, they might start thinking "OMG, what's wrong," then lose concentration. Then the performance could lose its spark or (worst case), they might do a Jeremy and have a close encounter w/ the boards & the ice. (I think Jeremy thinks too much and can probably psych himself out worse than any Russian audience, but that's JMO.) OTOH, even a positive response could also cause a lapse in focus.

This is a lot of touchy-feely speculation, but I do think audience response can be a factor, for better or worse. Again, only one person's opinion.

That said, seniorita, who was in the audience, pointed out that Jason still somehow connected with the audience somewhat, even if it wasn't on the same level as he got in Paris at Trophee Eric Bompard or in Boston at U.S. Nationals. That probably speaks well of Jason's performance/execution abilities and might have contributed to his strong PCS marks. (He got 84+ while only getting 69 in TES).

 

[kslr0816]

So far the justifications offered are:

1) Judges being bullied by audience: These judges attended many events and it's not the first time they dealt with home-town crowd. They know better. Even more damning evidence is the levels given out by the tech panel's. (were they hypnotized by Adelina's magic, too?) They were absolutely calculated. (Flutz, Under-rotation, Steps, etc.)

2) 1 more Tripple! 1 more Tripple!: The BV difference between Yuna and Adelina in SP+FS is less than 2 points. It's preposterous to suggest that Adelina did more or anything more difficult.

3) Adelina gave 100%, Yuna held back: No one believes that skaters hold anything back on the Olympic ice.

These are rebuttals. There are lots more positive evidence that shed lights on corruption.

mentioned in another thread just now, but it may have been the music which gave the impression of holding back/being tentative - it's not like carmen lol.

i'd use more neutral wording, but as far as it goes, I think that is the gist of it. really, ladyepheu's posts are pretty damning IMO as far as the quality of Adelina's skate compared to her scores.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

So far the justifications offered are:

1) Judges being bullied by audience: These judges attended many events and it's not the first time they dealt with home-town crowd. They know better. Even more damning evidence is the levels given out by the tech panel's. (were they hypnotized by Adelina's magic, too?) They were absolutely calculated. (Flutz, Under-rotation, Steps, etc.)

2) 1 more Tripple! 1 more Tripple!: The BV difference between Yuna and Adelina in SP+FS is less than 2 points. It's preposterous to suggest that Adelina did more or anything more difficult.

3) Adelina gave 100%, Yuna held back: No one believes that skaters hold anything back on the Olympic ice.

These are rebuttals. There are lots more positive evidence that shed lights on corruption.

Edit: Unless, of course, what people are suggesting by judges being personally biased is that Adelina knows the judges personally through her federation and received favors - then sure that seems believable.

I think the point people are trying to make here is that too many people might have their heels dug in a little too deep. Of course it's possible that corruption happened. Can't we wait for the story to unfold. Signing petitions and writing to the ISU, hell politic the judges about the guidelines/rules when they are at the rink if you can are all positive steps most would agree. What needs to stop is unfounded slander and extreme circumstancial evidence being taking as undeniabe proof. One way roads lead only to dead ends....they have to.

Someone suggested the video review the tech panel has access to being released after each event.....Brilliant!!!! This is the type of constructive criticism that needs to flow. Stream to river and river to sea.

 

[kslr0816]

I think the point people are trying to make here is that too many people might have their heels dug in a little too deep. Of course it's possible that corruption happened. Can't we wait for the story to unfold. Signing petitions and writing to the ISU, hell politic the judges when they are at the rink if you can are all positive steps most would agree. What needs to stop is unfounded slander and extreme circumstancial evidence being taking as undeniabe proof. One way roads lead only to dead ends....they have to.

Someone suggested the video review the tech panel has access to being released after each event.....Brilliant!!!! This is the type of constructive criticism that needs to flow. Stream to river and river to sea.

even if there was, it seems damn near impossible to prove anything? what kind of evidence could there possibly be? texts? e-mails?

It seems the ISU is pretty staunch in not responding/taking this seriously. At this point, wouldn't it be better for them to launch the investigation, just to clear their name?

 

[usethis2]

mentioned in another thread just now, but it may have been the music which gave the impression of holding back/being tentative - it's not like carmen lol.

Even if that's the case for some TV viewers, I think judges definitely knew better. They all knew Yuna's and Adelina's routines prior to the event anyway - which is why majority of commentators around the globe thought Yuna did it again (in real time).

 

[mskater93]

Not JUST the video, but the audio from the tech panel for each skater (which IS recorded). For Sotnikova, if the panel was calling it equal to other skaters, it should have sounded something like
Person #1:"Triple Lutz + Triple toe loop"
Person #2: "review"
Person #1: "triple flip"
Person #1: "triple loop"
Person #1: "Flying camel spin"
Person #1: "Level 4"
Person #2: "Review"
Person #1: "double Axel + triple toe loop"
Person #1: "triple flip + double toe loop + double loop"
Person #2: "Review"
Person #1: "triple salchow"
And so on. Then you should be able to hear the debate on the reviewed items.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

again

Not JUST the video, but the audio from the tech panel for each skater (which IS recorded). For Sotnikova, if the panel was calling it equal to other skaters, it should have sounded something like
Person #1:"Triple Lutz + Triple toe loop"
Person #2: "review"
Person #1: "triple flip"
Person #1: "triple loop"
Person #1: "Flying camel spin"
Person #1: "Level 4"
Person #2: "Review"
Person #1: "double Axel + triple toe loop"
Person #1: "triple flip + double toe loop + double loop"
Person #2: "Review"
Person #1: "triple salchow"
And so on. Then you should be able to hear the debate on the reviewed items.