The Judging Controversy Thread

[gkelly]

If Yuna gets lower GOE for middle-of-the pack form on spins, why doesn't Adelina get lower GOE for middle-of-the-pack form on jumps?

Bullet points for positive GOE on jumps:
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

If she hits two of those bullet points, she deserves +1. If she hits four, she deserves +2. If six, +3. It's not required to hit all of them.
If she hits three or five of those points exceptionally well, judges will probably round up to +2 or +3, respectively, rather than round down.

Which "middle of the pack" skaters have similar form, or similar combinations of positive points, on most jumps?

Gracie Gold comes to mind as someone whose form, in the sense of control of body position in the air and on the takeoffs and landings, looked better than the medalists, but her jumps looked in Sochi looked to have less height and distance. And she was close to the top of the pack.

 

[leafygreens]

Bullet points for positive GOE on jumps:
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

If she hits two of those bullet points, she deserves +1. If she hits four, she deserves +2. If six, +3. It's not required to hit all of them.

According to those bullets, Yuna should have had a +3 on every jump.

 

[Mt. Adam]

According to those bullets, Yuna should have had a +3 on every jump.

Very right.

 

[jenaj]

Have you read an article written by Beverly Smith, a Canadian sports columnist?
It says about the backstory of Russian judges related to this Sochi scandal.
You can read it here: http://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/2014/02/22/more-on-the-womens-controversy/

Excellent article! Thanks.

 

[verysmuchso]

Have you read an article written by Beverly Smith, a Canadian sports columnist?
It says about the backstory of Russian judges related to this Sochi scandal.
You can read it here: http://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/2014/02/22/more-on-the-womens-controversy/

Regarding France's role in the Salt Lake fixing, no indeed. It doesn't mean that France did it again. But, one strange fact is that France is also over-represented in the Sochi Panel: 3 altogether if Diana Barbacci Levy who is a French Swiss is included. Couldn't find much about Helene Cucuphat except that she has been an ISU judge since Marie Le Gougne's time. As for Gusmeroli, although French, she lives in Switcherland and had appeared on French TV alongside Barbacci Levy, and was a former student of the Soviet pair skater Stanislav Leonovich.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

According to those bullets, Yuna should have had a +3 on every jump.

Leading into Euro's I found myself arguing that very point about Yulia to death. The part about how many bullets needed to award whatever level +GOE being suggested and at the judges discretion is well....interesting and I've posted over and over again that this simple fact may be the elephant in the room leading to these arguments. The impact of GOE is extremely important to scores and maybe too important to be left to the judges personal taste. Not to mention the subjectivity of the bullets themselves. Seriously...anyone with an open or should I say willing mind could easily find bullets 5,6 are Yulia's strengths with 1,2 on some of her jumps(barring edge calls) To me she should get easily get +1's and +2's on all jumps even her wonky 2a which has amazing transitions out and great speed and is always on a deep edge(see my stupid question in the stupidquestion's thread posts 135-137)and +3 for her 3t and sometimes the flip. My point wasn't to defend Yulia to her naysayers(like some here who maintain she should get -GOE on landed jumps) but to expose the ISU judging system for what it is. Subjective even on the TES. Of course the Russians will prefer Russians, not necessarily due to national bias but because its likely the type of skating they promote. With this in mind and these guidelines in place what else can we expect.

 

[Mt. Adam]

My point wasn't to defend Yulia to her naysayers(like some here who maintain she should get -GOE on landed jumps) but to expose the ISU judging system for what it is. Subjective even on the TES. Of course the Russians will prefer Russians, not necessarily due to national bias but because its likely the type of skating they promote. With this in mind and these guidelines in place what else can we expect.

Your argument implies that ISU under influence of Russia, from the beginning, conspired the judging system in direction of favoring the Russian skaters.

 

[gkelly]

I expect the top senior contenders to be getting positive GOE on most of their jumps, except when there are outright mistakes, or errors such as edge changes and underrotations.

The very best jumpers can more often get +2 and +3, but even the average to above-average senior jumpers should be getting a lot of +1s.

You'd need to look to lower levels to see more squeaked-out jumps that only deserve base value, or -1 even when landed cleanly.

I remember one club competition 7-8 years ago, when IJS was pretty new to both the skaters and the local judges. Several of the intermediate ladies were trying double axels, crawling into them, getting them downgraded even if they landed them. Finally one girl landed a double axel that covered a couple blade lengths of ice, was clearly backward before landing on a BO edge, but on smaller entry and exit curve than we see at elite levels . . . that in my mind was a textbook example of a 0 GOE double axel. Most of the judges on the panel agreed.

Any skater you've seen competing on TV is capable of a better double axel, though they sometimes make mistakes.

But one local judge was evidently so excited to see an actual clean 2A at that level that she gave it +3.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Your argument implies that ISU under influence of Russia, from the beginning, conspired the judging system in direction of favoring the Russian skaters.

The point was Russians will vote higher when they see a Russian style. The skater could be American but trained in the Russian discipline although that's less likely. The same could be said of Japanese or American judges voting to promote the styles that their federation teaches its skaters. I used Russia because its the topic at hand. I'm just saying they always have a leg to stand on in defending their scores to an extent based on how loosely some criteria can be interpreted.

 

[mskater93]

I think it's implied that the bullets are intended to include "for the level". I see adults who are judged under IJS who do a decent Axel get +1's even though they are textbook "0" Axels because they are better than the rest (have better flow and ice coverage). Or, go look at the protocols from Intermediate or Novice ladies at US Nationals and tell me their double Axels are better than the Junior ladies. It's called "grading on a curve".

 

[leafygreens]

I think it's implied that the bullets are intended to include "for the level". I see adults who are judged under IJS who do a decent Axel get +1's even though they are textbook "0" Axels because they are better than the rest (have better flow and ice coverage). Or, go look at the protocols from Intermediate or Novice ladies at US Nationals and tell me their double Axels are better than the Junior ladies. It's called "grading on a curve".

That's a different situation. What happened to Yuna is she did meet the criteria but was not given the scores. The judges forced a curve that wasn't there.

 

[Ven]

Nobody seemed to answer the questions, except for a link Sam provided from 2002, so I will post again:


Why did Alla SHEKHOVTSEVA judge all of Adelina's events this year?

Alla SHEKHOVTSEVA, the Russian judge indicated to have conflicts of interest, judged every single event that Sotnikova entered this season.

How many certified ISU judges does Russia have, and why would they send the same one to every single Sotnikova event?
Other than Olympics, she judged both short and long programs at Bompard, Cup of China, Grand Prix Final, Russian Nationals, and Euros. Plus Olympics free skate.

All were the events Sotnikova entered. Did she judge any others?

 

[Ven]

And also, why did the mods change the title of the thread?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

All were the events Sotnikova entered. Did she judge any others?

You can look at the protocols for the GP as easily as anyone else. The judges' names are listed.

 

[Ven]

You can look at the protocols for the GP as easily as anyone else. The judges' names are listed.

Russia has many ISU judges. Why would the Federation president's wife personally judge all of Sotnikova's events this season? Every single one?

 

[Icey]

And also, why did the mods change the title of the thread?

To make the thread longer?

 

[Ven]

To make the thread longer?

The mods themselves created the "Judging Conspiracy Thread" that ran for over 160 pages. Combined with the running commentary by GS users in the Ladies Free Skate thread starting on page 70, it's clear that the large majority of active users did not accept the results and viewed the competition as rigged. Now for some reason the mods feel pressure or unease to change the thread to "Judging Controversy" as though this were some close competition between two skaters of near equal abilities, and the judges just happened to go one way as opposed to the other.

The evidence of willful intent and inaccurate results nevertheless remains:

*Sotnikova did not receive an edge call on lutz and 3T was not downgraded as both calls clearly should have been made according to ISU rules. The ISU refuses to comment whether Ms. Gusmeroli called for a downgrade, but was overruled by two Russian assistants on the tech panel.

*Russian judge Alla SHEKHOVTSEVA, with clear conflicts of interest, personally judged every single one of Sotnikova's events this year, despite an abundance of ISU judges at Russian Federation's disposal.

*Ukrainian judge convicted of rigging results in the past and with ties to Alla SHEKHOVTSEVA was also on the panel.

*Discrepancies in grade of execution scores showed a large bias towards the Russian girls. Not only did Sotnikova score the most +3s in the competition, but Lipnitskaia, who finished 5th despite two poor performances, received more +3s than the flawless 2nd and 3rd place finishers combined. This shows an indiscriminate bias towards the Russian skaters.

*The graded step sequence levels diverged from the mode level over the past years for both Kim and Sotnikova. Additionally, Sotnikova was the only woman to earn two level 4s in the competition, despite not being regarded highly in this area. These discrepancies invite further scrutiny, and many experts feel that the step sequence levels given by the tech panel are grossly inaccurate.

*The PCS gap between the Russian girls and the top level skaters was indiscriminately eliminated by the panel. Sotnikova scored in the low 60s over and over and over again throughout her career. Then after securing her spot on the Olympic team, her score suddenly jumped to 69 and nearly world record 75 in two competitions. Sotnikova received higher PCS and Carolina Kostner and Mao Asada and essentially the same as Yuna Kim.

------

In a fairly judged competition, there are 10+ points of swing in PCS, maybe more if you include short program, half a dozen points not called in downgrades on Sotnikova, a few points in faulty step sequence levels, and a few more points in swings on ridiculous GOEs handed out.

The reason why this is a conspiracy thread and not a controversy thread is because Kim and Sotnikova are not equal skaters separated by a small margin...in a fairly judged competition, their performances would have been separated by 15 or 20 points or more, a massive gap, and illustrates how great a fraud this competition was.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Now for some reason the mods feel pressure or unease to change the thread to "Judging Controversy" as though this were some close competition between two skaters of near equal abilities, and the judges just happened to go one way as opposed to the other.

Judging controversy reflects that some people think the result was controversial, or that they strongly disagreed.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The reason why this is a conspiracy thread and not a controversy thread is because Kim and Sotnikova are not equal skaters separated by a small margin...in a fairly judged competition, their performances would have been separated by 15 or 20 points or more, a massive gap, and illustrates how great a fraud this competition was.

Not a single judge agrees with your assessment. Assuming to benefit your argument that Yuna's high score and Adelina's low score were proper, Yuna's highest score was < 10 points ahead of Adelina's lowest score. So suggesting a 15 - 20 point margin is something that shows you are unreasonably biased against Adelina.

 

[Ven]

Conspiracy, not controversy. From the free skate thread (and you get the same result reading threads on other skating forums, sports forums, etc.):

OMG don't tell me this deserves higher PCS than Mao

What....

***?

Oh come on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Still first? Wow. Just wow.

That is a load of bull. She should NOT be getting that score, ***?

Higher PCS than Mao

Disgusting.

Gotta be f-ing kidding me.

LOLOLOLOL. What a joke.

Cup of Russia Rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Biggest judging scandal I've ever witnessed.

135.34?!?!?!
That is SO wrong.

Of course, Julia gets a personal best PCS of 70 points.

Disgusting

Ahahahaha. Julia's PCS is 70.06. Mao was 69.68. They're not even trying not to be too obvious, are they?

This is scandalous... look at these ridiculous GOEs and PCS........ !!!!

They're bad, Dutchie, but Moscow 1980 was arguably worse. The regime *paid* soldiers to whistle, boo, etc, during non-USSR athletes' performances, in addition to the general classlessness of the crowd. In the pole vault, Wladyslaw Kozakiewicz dealt with deafening whistles, catcalls, etc, at his every turn. He won the gold medal without a single miss, bounced up from the pit, gave the entire audience an extremely obscene gesture, and then proceeded to break the world record!

----

And the kicker ...

I'm done with this sport.

Do you still feel the same????? lol

Should I keep going? That was just Julia's score. Should I keep going to Sotnikova and Kim?