The Judging Controversy Thread

[Petitefleur]

One judge who is out of line (either excessively high comparatively or excessively low comparatively) can make a crucial difference in a close race because the highest and lowest GOE is thrown out for each element. Let's say I score someone +3 but everyone else on the panel scores +1 or +2. My +3 gets thrown out but instead of a +2 getting tossed, it's a +1 that gets tossed (as the low mark versus the high mark). It can make a difference of a few tenths either way. Add that up across 3 spins, 7 jumps, a leveled step and choreographic step sequence and you get a several point swing. If I score my favorite excessively high and her greatest rival excessively low, we're looking at probably a 5 point differential between the two programs. :think:

So you say that (thanks to the system that moderates excessive notes), for example 3 points are reduced to 1 point! therefore the excessive GOE does not pay ! if you want to "cheat" it seems more tactical to give 2 rather than 3. However the impact of the rating of a single judge on the global GOE given to one element should not exceed 0.20.
This does not change the fact that the technical base in Sotnikova's free program was normally higher than 4 points compared to Kim, regardless of the GOE. Sotnikova had a deduction of -2 for 3 judges, and - 1 for 6 judges for a minor error (global GOE was - 0.90). Do you tell us that these six judges were dishonest?
I don't see that Kim's notes were somewhere excessively low : rather homogeneous.

 

[Mathman]

I guess it's just me, but I don't understand why removing anonymous judging would make so much of a difference. If we knew who gave what scores, then what? Would someone have done something about it then? It's obvious enough as it is that there was some funny business going on. The numbers are all there in the protocols (at least we weren't looking at a string of 5.9's and 6.0's with no idea where those numbers were supposed to have come from). But anyone who was in a position to do anything about it either blew it off or tried to explain it away. If the people involved - both the judges and the organization - think this is okay, then what difference does it make if everyone knows who's who?

It can make a difference. If the judges are identified then it is easy to see who is up to no good. In 1980 the entire Soviet judging corps was prohibited from judging any ISU event for one year as punishment for systematic cheating. In 1927 three out of five judges were Norwegian,. They all voted for Sonja Henie over Austrian Herma Szabo. The ISU responded by passing a rule that there would be no more than one judge from each country. There have been many statistical studies of which countries habitually top the list in terms of national bias. (Canada is always leads the way.)

I think it makes a big difference, when launching a protest, to have some facts and figures to back you up. In the present situation, all we can say is, gee, I thought the other girl should have won. Oh, well.

 

[usethis2]

This is not a news, but a fresh look at men's singles from conspiracy theory point of view.

What if Plush had not suffered from a sudden "injury" and had actually competed in men's singles? In spite of his slow speed, non-existent transitions and choreo, and his 5-minute jump setups, his PCS would have been through the roof if ladies singles were an indication of what might have been. (see: Yulia's PCS from team -> individual, as well as Adelina's PCS) With a few clean-ish jumps, Plush would have been on the podium, even gold, and the judging scandals would have been crazy. Taking both Men's event and Women's event by bein gifting would have made the Olympics a total joke.

Thankfully and graciously Plush withdrew and that kind of ensured semi-fair men's competition. I do not know where there was a behind-the-scene transactions about each discipline's standings, but it's something to think about. Russia could have swept the podiums had they really pushed it and things would have been ugly beyond recognition.

 

[cchen24]

So you say that (thanks to the system that moderates excessive notes), for example 3 points are reduced to 1 point! therefore the excessive GOE does not pay ! if you want to "cheat" it seems more tactical to give 2 rather than 3. However the impact of the rating of a single judge on the global GOE given to one element should not exceed 0.20.
This does not change the fact that the technical base in Sotnikova's free program was normally higher than 4 points compared to Kim, regardless of the GOE. Sotnikova had a deduction of -2 for 3 judges, and - 1 for 6 judges for a minor error (global GOE was - 0.90). Do you tell us that these six judges were dishonest?
I don't see that Kim's notes were somewhere excessively low : rather homogeneous.

Here is the protocol of ladies LP in Sochi:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

For Sotnikova, I see TONS of +3s from Judges 2, 5, 6, 7 and they also gave her extremely high PCS.

Theoretically, if there is only one judge who manipulates the GOEs and PCS, it would not work since the highest and lowest scores on the panel will be thrown out.

But if there are two or more judges who manipulate the GOEs and PCS, it WILL work.

From the protocol, I see not only two, but four "suspects".
+2~+3 for Sotnikova's opening combo with a flutz and under-rotated 3T? What did they see?

Just look at the almost equal number of +3s for Sotnikova vs +1s for Kim in the protocol.
Interesting, huh?!

 

[usethis2]

Some judges basically went autopilot mode with +3s on Adelina. It wouldn't surprise me they changed their GOEs for Adelina's botched 3-2-2 after Adelina's routine had finished and they had seen other judges marks.

 

[verysmuchso]

The score of 149.95 is highly suspect not just because it's so high. You sense a visible effort not to surpass Yuna's Vancouver score of 150.06. They could have used either an algorithm to make sure of that or a human oversight. Likewise, they kept Adelina's PCS just below Yuna's by 0.09pts, so that they can argue that Yuna was 'rewarded' for her artistry.

 

[usethis2]

It was more of ensuring Adelina's gold since they did not know how Yuna would skate. Had Yuna skated earlier they might have had the time to manipulate the protocol with a little more "finesse."

I dream of a day in the future where machines will replace technical specialists in figure skating, like they do in tennis. Edges, speeds, takeoff/landing angles, exact blueprints of all turns, etc. Get rid of these corrupt tech panels that are completely unaccounted and hidden thanks to general public's ignorance of the system. (Public outrage is rather focused on the judges, but I am even more outraged by the techs.)

That day can't come soon enough. Apple, Samsung, Sony, or whoever - please develop technologies that can read blade traces on the ice.

 

[millie]

Food for thought.....just reading the posts about the Sochi skating controversy...this came to mind..

When NASA first started sending up astronauts into space, they quickly discovered that the ballpoint pens would not work in zero gravity. To combat this problem, NASA spent a decade and over $12 million to develop a pen that works in zero gravity, upside down, under water and almost on any surface and at a temperature ranging below freezing up to 300 degrees C.......THE RUSSIANS USED A PENCIL!!!

 

[leafygreens]

Food for thought.....just reading the posts about the Sochi skating controversy...this came to mind..

When NASA first started sending up astronauts into space, they quickly discovered that the ballpoint pens would not work in zero gravity. To combat this problem, NASA spent a decade and over $12 million to develop a pen that works in zero gravity, upside down, under water and almost on any surface and at a temperature ranging below freezing up to 300 degrees C.......THE RUSSIANS USED A PENCIL!!!

So what you're saying is, the Russian judges don't need sophisticated scoring systems to cheat, they can just do it under our noses because nobody cares anyway.

 

[Petitefleur]

In SP, Kim had a very difficult combo 3Z-3T and Sotnikova had an easy combo 3T-3T. Is that a big difference? Yes, in my opinion. Did the score in SP reflect that? No. Your argument doesn't seem to work here. Also, you may want to check their total base value score, SP and LP combined. The difference wasn't nearly as big as you might think. In this competition, GOEs and PCS were highly manipulated by some judges. Furthermore, Sotnikova's flutz in LP was not called and the under-rotated 3T was not called, either. These all make HUGE differences in the final standing.

there was a difference in base value in the free program! in the free, Adelina did one more triple, she has better spins. In the short, the combined jumps were fairly paid : for a 3z-3t, Yuna obtained base value 10.10 + goe 1.50 (2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 3) , for a 3T-3T Adelina base-value was 8.20 + goe 1.60 (2 2 3 2 2 2 2 3 3) : one more judge giving 3 points to Adelina added only 0.10 . It seems that Yuna's second triple lutz which was under-rotated . Anyway the debate can go far. In Vancouver, at her best, Yuna obtained 228.56. This season, in Zagreb, Yuna obtained overall 204.49, in Sochi she performed better with 219.11... I still feel not shocked by the podium.

 

[usethis2]

Again, just think about what kind of scores Plush had received had his "injury" had not prevented him from competing in singles.

This is not a news, but a fresh look at men's singles from conspiracy theory point of view.

What if Plush had not suffered from a sudden "injury" and had actually competed in men's singles? In spite of his slow speed, non-existent transitions and choreo, and his 5-minute jump setups, his PCS would have been through the roof if ladies singles were an indication of what might have been. (see: Yulia's PCS from team -> individual, as well as Adelina's PCS) With a few clean-ish jumps, Plush would have been on the podium, even gold, and the judging scandals would have been crazy. Taking both Men's event and Women's event by bein gifting would have made the Olympics a total joke.

Thankfully and graciously Plush withdrew and that kind of ensured semi-fair men's competition. I do not know where there was a behind-the-scene transactions about each discipline's standings, but it's something to think about. Russia could have swept the podiums had they really pushed it and things would have been ugly beyond recognition.

 

[Petitefleur]

Some judges basically went autopilot mode with +3s on Adelina. It wouldn't surprise me they changed their GOEs for Adelina's botched 3-2-2 after Adelina's routine had finished and they had seen other judges marks.

technically impossible

 

[mskater93]

So you say that (thanks to the system that moderates excessive notes), for example 3 points are reduced to 1 point! therefore the excessive GOE does not pay ! if you want to "cheat" it seems more tactical to give 2 rather than 3. However the impact of the rating of a single judge on the global GOE given to one element should not exceed 0.20.

If you shift the "global" GOE by 0.2 for all elements in a program by scoring one person extremely high (+3 for all elements except a mistake that you grade as a 0 when the rest are +1 and +2 or on the element with a mistake is -1 and -2), their score will be inflated by 2.4 points in TES OVERALL (12 elements in the program) and if you shift their rival's score by scoring them extremely low (+1 or 0 when there is a range of +1 and +2 of other judges) and shift their "global" GOE by -0.2 for all elements, their score is deflated by -2.4 points overall in TES. This gives you a differential between the two skaters of 4.8 points where if that score were in line with the others from a GOE perspective, then it becomes a tighter range and more reflective of what actually occured versus trying to ensure your skater gets the win.

 

[cchen24]

there was a difference in base value in the free program! in the free, Adelina did one more triple, she has better spins. In the short, the combined jumps were fairly paid : for a 3z-3t, Yuna obtained base value 10.10 + goe 1.50 (2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 3) , for a 3T-3T Adelina base-value was 8.20 + goe 1.60 (2 2 3 2 2 2 2 3 3) : one more judge giving 3 points to Adelina added only 0.10 . It seems that Yuna's second triple lutz which was under-rotated . Anyway the debate can go far. In Vancouver, at her best, Yuna obtained 228.56. This season, in Zagreb, Yuna obtained overall 204.49, in Sochi she performed better with 219.11... I still feel not shocked by the podium.

If you want to talk about base value, there is really not much difference between Sotnikova and Kim, SP and LP combined.

If you want to factor in GOEs, then things will get interesting since many people question several judges who might have manipulated the GOEs. Thus, pointing out what's on the protocol (in both SP and LP) is not going to help your argument since those GOEs are in question.

There is a good reason why Adelina avoided lutz in SP and chose to only do one lutz in LP: it's because she flutz!
Her flutz in LP was not called by the technical panel, neither was the under-rotated 3T.
If they were correctly called, it would not only only reduce her base score, but also take away some bonus points due to positive GOEs.

If you only go by the protocol (GOEs & PCS, etc), you basically accept the judgement by this judge panel. Thus, you will never be shocked by the result.

But to me, it is shocking to see +2~+3 in GOE for Adelina's 3Z-3T combo in LP. That alone should raise a lot of doubt to many people, but not to you.

I am not shocked by the podium in Sochi, either, but the judges got the order wrong.

 

[Anna K.]

I dream of a day in the future where machines will replace technical specialists in figure skating, like they do in tennis. Edges, speeds, takeoff/landing angles, exact blueprints of all turns, etc. Get rid of these corrupt tech panels that are completely unaccounted and hidden thanks to general public's ignorance of the system. (Public outrage is rather focused on the judges, but I am even more outraged by the techs.)

That day can't come soon enough. Apple, Samsung, Sony, or whoever - please develop technologies that can read blade traces on the ice.

I like the idea about technology but I thnik it's unlikely that ISU would develop that. Controversies aside, I don't believe that they have the money. It might rather find its way as a commercial project if any of now retired skaters with big names would be interested. Anyway, it's offtop

 

[Petitefleur]

suspicion, conspiracy theories, So you think that the judges have the right to give good grades to Kim only , you think that she deserves only good grades, and when another good skater gets a good score, it becomes a conspiracy ? I'm not particularly a fan of any of these skaters, but Sotnikova was a little better than Kim.

 

[gkelly]

It wouldn't surprise me they changed their GOEs for Adelina's botched 3-2-2 after Adelina's routine had finished and they had seen other judges marks.

The judges don't get to see the other judges' marks while the competition is going on, neither before nor after the program is finished.

Nor, BTW, do they get to see what levels were called by the tech panel for spins and steps.

To learn those details, they can only wait and see the published protocols at the same time they're available to everyone else.

What the judges do get to see after the program is over are <, <<, and e calls after the technical panel reviews the jumps. They're supposed to reduce their GOEs for those elements, if they hadn't already done so because they saw the errors themselves in real time.

If there's no call on a jump element (whether because there was no review because it looked fine to all members of the tech panel in real time, or the panel did review the element and thought it looked fine or borderline at worst in which case benefit of the doubt goes to the skater), then judges will not see any additional information after the program, so they would have no reason to rethink the GOE they initially gave that element.

If they were paying attention to the computer display they might have noticed which elements were flagged for review. So if the box on their screens changed color to indicate a review, and then there was no <, <<, or e symbol added, the judges could know that the tech panel reviewed the element and didn't find a clear error.

Or they might have been too busy inputting their PCS to notice which elements the tech panel was reviewing, especially the first element.

In any case, judges hear the totals and only the totals announced in the arena. At that point, it is too late to change their marks, because the judges finalizing their marks in the computer and the referee authorizing that all marks are in is what prompts the announcement.

 

[cchen24]

suspicion, conspiracy theories, So you think that the judges have the right to give good grades to Kim only , you think that she deserves only good grades, and when another good skater gets a good score, it becomes a conspiracy ? I'm not particularly a fan of any of these skaters, but Sotnikova was a little better than Kim.

There are several levels of good grades.

Before the competition started, I rooted for Mao to win. I still believe she should have won the LP.
But her actual score in LP did not even come close to Sotnikova's and Mao did a much more difficult program.
(Yes, they downgraded two of her eight triples. But many would question those calls as well.)

In LP, Mao was quite a bit better than everyone else, in my opinion. Where's the score she deserved?

 

[leafygreens]

The judges don't get to see the other judges' marks while the competition is going on, neither before nor after the program is finished.

Nor, BTW, do they get to see what levels were called by the tech panel for spins and steps.

That doesn't explain if the Tech panel was corrupt or not, and it doesn't prevent too high GOE. A judge doesn't have to see the total score to know they're giving Adelina higher than Yuna.

 

[bebevia]

suspicion, conspiracy theories, So you think that the judges have the right to give good grades to Kim only , you think that she deserves only good grades, and when another good skater gets a good score, it becomes a conspiracy ? I'm not particularly a fan of any of these skaters, but Sotnikova was a little better than Kim.

Er... it's the other way around. Yuna seemed to do better, did better, and with scoring review and analyses, conclusively deserved better by majority opinion.

From your post, you seem to think that Sotnikova did better, and therefore any suspicion is a Bot theory. There were many convincing analysis from both sides. Please go through them all.