wow. rewriting history?
The Judging Controversy Thread
- Thread starter Andre Smith
- Start date
New circumstantial evidence:
Is it a "coincidence" that Adelina Sotnikova and a judge journeyed the Olympic season together? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEyf10Jb4ho
ISU does not take its own sport seriously, period.
Is it a "coincidence" that Adelina Sotnikova and a judge journeyed the Olympic season together? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEyf10Jb4ho
ISU does not take its own sport seriously, period.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
Old news.
Not old to everyone.
Right, still new to me.
Read the thread from the beginning. You will find many news. It's not that long.
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
nothing new when you read these 174 pages ...soon we will be told that this is not a coincidence that Adelina and the Russian judge had the same hairstyle, a poneytail !!!
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
Unfortunately, we heard more about politics than sports in the Olympics, it ruined my enjoyment !
I was really sad and frightened by such wickedness spilled regarding the ladies results in Sochi.
1 - Yuna was the best in 2010 , a model , and still undeniably one of the best in the world ... but her supremacy was not indestructible, Mao Asada has even beaten her !
In 2014 , as some have pointed out, the level of women has certainly increased. Improvement of old talents, emerging new talents .
In Sochi, Yuna acknowledged not having the same motivation to win, compared to 2010. Skating after Adelina, she had the opportunity of adding a triple jump in her free skate, she was able to do it , but she did not. Asada did 8 triple jumps in her program.
It reminds me what a journalist said to Michelle KWAN, beaten by Lipinski , who told her she had room enough in her program to add a jump ( but Kwan skated before Lipinski , not after her!) . The 7th triple jump, and the GOE to go with, gave more points to Adelina . The two free programs were beautiful in a different style . Two judges in a panel could'nt make the difference , and anyway , Adelina free program was technically more consistent , not only jumps, but also beautiful spins ... I 'm not shocked by her victory.
2 - objectively , a medal is a matter of a day ( be ready , physically and mentally fit, and lucky) . She is not a model of consistency , but it was the D day for SOTNIKOVA . Some are surprised by the difference of points obtained in one month by Adelina ( who knows the judging system, this is simply the difference of points between a program with errors , and a well-executed program , which is fair).
I repeat , a medal is the matter of a day , the proof by the opposite point of view: the first day was not the D day for Mao ASADA , she had never skated with so many errors, it was even her PW (personal worst score) in a short progam ( 55.51 = 20 points less than her personal best in a short program, that was 75.84) ! overnight , everything changed, and she as able to skate a free program that improved her personal best 142.71 ! In a same event: PW and PB.
I am convinced that if Yuna had trained again with Brian Orser this season, and if she had not been disturbed by her injury, the result would have been different for her in Sochi.
3 - I regret that Yuna leaves the competition, she is still very young, she has the qualities, I am even convinced that she has not reached her full potential ! but she is certainly tired to live the austere life of competitive skaters , and galas are more profitable. I understand that Yuna is an idol for some fans , I understand they are disappointed, but for many other malicious people , it is mostly synonymous of controversy with a political battle perfume. I think it nasty and pathetic.
I was really sad and frightened by such wickedness spilled regarding the ladies results in Sochi.
1 - Yuna was the best in 2010 , a model , and still undeniably one of the best in the world ... but her supremacy was not indestructible, Mao Asada has even beaten her !
In 2014 , as some have pointed out, the level of women has certainly increased. Improvement of old talents, emerging new talents .
In Sochi, Yuna acknowledged not having the same motivation to win, compared to 2010. Skating after Adelina, she had the opportunity of adding a triple jump in her free skate, she was able to do it , but she did not. Asada did 8 triple jumps in her program.
It reminds me what a journalist said to Michelle KWAN, beaten by Lipinski , who told her she had room enough in her program to add a jump ( but Kwan skated before Lipinski , not after her!) . The 7th triple jump, and the GOE to go with, gave more points to Adelina . The two free programs were beautiful in a different style . Two judges in a panel could'nt make the difference , and anyway , Adelina free program was technically more consistent , not only jumps, but also beautiful spins ... I 'm not shocked by her victory.
2 - objectively , a medal is a matter of a day ( be ready , physically and mentally fit, and lucky) . She is not a model of consistency , but it was the D day for SOTNIKOVA . Some are surprised by the difference of points obtained in one month by Adelina ( who knows the judging system, this is simply the difference of points between a program with errors , and a well-executed program , which is fair).
I repeat , a medal is the matter of a day , the proof by the opposite point of view: the first day was not the D day for Mao ASADA , she had never skated with so many errors, it was even her PW (personal worst score) in a short progam ( 55.51 = 20 points less than her personal best in a short program, that was 75.84) ! overnight , everything changed, and she as able to skate a free program that improved her personal best 142.71 ! In a same event: PW and PB.
I am convinced that if Yuna had trained again with Brian Orser this season, and if she had not been disturbed by her injury, the result would have been different for her in Sochi.
3 - I regret that Yuna leaves the competition, she is still very young, she has the qualities, I am even convinced that she has not reached her full potential ! but she is certainly tired to live the austere life of competitive skaters , and galas are more profitable. I understand that Yuna is an idol for some fans , I understand they are disappointed, but for many other malicious people , it is mostly synonymous of controversy with a political battle perfume. I think it nasty and pathetic.
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
Olympic Games were polluted with stinking political debates which started months before the Games (boycott, no boycott and so on...). There are too many people who enjoy quarrels, political debates, too many who know nothing about figure skating, and they generate rumors and make them swell.
In a few days there are the Paralympics in Sochi : there are men and women who , for many years, day after day, had to fight because their physical or mental disability, for their integration into society, they had the courage to practice sports despite their disability, I do not want that politicos spoil their party.
In a few days there are the Paralympics in Sochi : there are men and women who , for many years, day after day, had to fight because their physical or mental disability, for their integration into society, they had the courage to practice sports despite their disability, I do not want that politicos spoil their party.
170+pages are very long!
Well, this is up to Mr. Putin now if their party will be spoiled by politics or actual military action (Sochi isn't that far from Crimea after all). Let's hope for the best.
I read also other posts of yours. It doesn't look to me that you've come here to get a deeper insight into what happened in Ladies event. Then, why didn't you save your time and skip reading and bringing up this thread at all?
By a deeper insight I mean, you say that a medal is a matter of a day but you obviously are not interested in what happened in the skate of the day. Under CoP, all elements and also scores can be reviewed and compared and I'm thankful for the fact that this forum is full of fanatics who actually do it and help me to. It's not just this thread; there have been several threads regarding different technical and artistic aspects so I can recommend you to browse this forum and learn something new - well, in case you really want it.
What about the scandal and outrage, what else did you expect? It's figure skating. Remember what happened after Berezhnaya's little misstep in 2002? After Sotnikova made a visible mistake and Kim didn't, I took a few media-free days to let the people blow out the puff. Then I went to this forum which is full of former and existent skaters and long-term fans to see what they say. Eventually I’ve learned a lot program-wise which is good for me but it wasn’t about technique and artistry – both Kim and Sotnikova have arguments in this sense and DIY judges here actually are convinced that Costner should win – that made a difference.
We all who are capable to think have to make our own conclusions about all this fuss. If yours are (figuratively speaking) that the world is overly cruel to 17-years old golden medalists I can’t say this is not true. I can only say it depends on your perspective.
From my perspective, it was important that a judge gave +3 for an element with a mistake that every no-skater could see and the system protected the judge from having any responsibility. Regardless who won or should win, I was outraged: because it was me who had been stupid thinking that the invention of CoP had made things better while it only had made things better for crooks. Oh well. Chatting here with people who live with knowledge that figure skating had always been that way has helped a lot to calm down.
I realize that any possible changes depend very much on who’ll be the next head of ISU and I can imagine that figure skating community keep silence in hope that the scandal will add to the popularity of the sport. Well, I can’t deny that I’m really following it now and waiting for the news. If there will be none for a longer while then I guess I’ll move along with other sports.
Which might be well better for everyone
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2010
From my perspective, it was important that a judge gave +3 for an element with a mistake that every no-skater could see and the system protected the judge from having any responsibility. Regardless who won or should win, I was outraged: because it was me who had been stupid thinking that the invention of CoP had made things better while it only had made things better for crooks. ...
. If there will be none for a longer while then I guess I’ll move along with other sports.
Which might be well better for everyone
Agreed.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2011
I guess it's just me, but I don't understand why removing anonymous judging would make so much of a difference. If we knew who gave what scores, then what? Would someone have done something about it then? It's obvious enough as it is that there was some funny business going on. The numbers are all there in the protocols (at least we weren't looking at a string of 5.9's and 6.0's with no idea where those numbers were supposed to have come from). But anyone who was in a position to do anything about it either blew it off or tried to explain it away. If the people involved - both the judges and the organization - think this is okay, then what difference does it make if everyone knows who's who?
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2011
My first thought is "Someone must answer for this." My second thought is, "That will never happen." It's very dismaying as a fan to see such blatant corruption and not be able to do anything about it.
Well, for those who can sell "kill judge ***" T-shirts it might make difference in dollars
Of course, you're right that this is up to the community of figure skating if they really want to improve or question the quality of judging; however with anonymous judges there's no way they can do it even theoretically.
We have a similar situation in soccer with very human refs who make intended or not intended mistakes. Actually, no big event goes without a scandal. FIFA has been criticized a lot but they at least work on this. All these mistakes are looked through after the event and there are refs who are found guilty in being incompetent and banned from international events. Is it enough? We have divided opinion here but that's at least something. And there's one thing that soccer has but figure skating doesn't: results in soccer are often unpredictable, especially in play-off games, and that gives underdog a chance no matter what. There are scandals but mostly those who suffered get their justice from above after a while. That keeps fans around.
How about FS? You are greater fans so you tell me.
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
- The political upheaval began almost a year before the current events !!! but this is another problem.
- 1 GOE set by 1 single judge among 9 judges, even if the GOE is considered excessive and objectionable on 1 element , imperfect or not imperfect, seen or not seen even by a non-skater, does not make a crucial difference for the final GOE added to this element (how much ? 0.10 ?)
- Anna K said that Sotnikova made an error on the landing of a jump (a kind of stumble), what a scoop ! and that Kim didn't, but Sotnikova had 7 triple jumps instead of 6 for Kim ! That was a "big" difference ! She said that Kostner should have won: but Kostner had also an imperfect reception on a jump, and her spins are not the same level ! Was the huge score in Hanyu 's short program 100% deserved ? did he deserve the gold, after a fall (not a stumble !) in the free ? Overall he was the best.
Overall and throughout the program, Sotnikova was better. I saw and reviewed in depth what happened during the free programs, taking into account all the elements. I think the podium is normal, but I would have preferred a smaller difference between the notes, although not outrageous.
- I am figure skating lover for many years, and for many years I have visited other forums where there wasn't a such long debate. I have visited this forum for a long time , I have readen part of the items sometimes with interest without posting , I registered in January, so before the Olympics and before the controversy. Of course, which fan has not heard about the controversy ?
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
One judge who is out of line (either excessively high comparatively or excessively low comparatively) can make a crucial difference in a close race because the highest and lowest GOE is thrown out for each element. Let's say I score someone +3 but everyone else on the panel scores +1 or +2. My +3 gets thrown out but instead of a +2 getting tossed, it's a +1 that gets tossed (as the low mark versus the high mark). It can make a difference of a few tenths either way. Add that up across 3 spins, 7 jumps, a leveled step and choreographic step sequence and you get a several point swing. If I score my favorite excessively high and her greatest rival excessively low, we're looking at probably a 5 point differential between the two programs. :think:
In SP, Kim had a very difficult combo 3Z-3T and Sotnikova had an easy combo 3T-3T. Is that a big difference? Yes, in my opinion. Did the score in SP reflect that? No.
Your argument doesn't seem to work here. Also, you may want to check their total base value score, SP and LP combined. The difference wasn't nearly as big as you might think.
In this competition, GOEs and PCS were highly manipulated by some judges. Furthermore, Sotnikova's flutz in LP was not called and the under-rotated 3T was not called, either. These all make HUGE differences in the final standing.
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2013
If we knew for sure which judges were which, we could know that the judges who scored Adelina the highest were also the two who scored Yuna the lowest (and that they're the two judges under suspicion) No one (almost no one) is saying Adelina shouldn't have had a great score. The problem is they gave what amounts to a perfect score. For a bad performance in the FS, 173-175. A month later for an extremely improved FS with two mistakes, her total score jumped to 202. That was a score where her PCS had already been inflated at least 4 points, because she is not as good as the best, components-wise. Then at the Olympics for a FS where she corrected one error but committed another she suddenly received a score that was over 22 points higher. Her SP has always been good but for the same execution (68.38, 70.73, suddenly climbed to 74.64 with the same content, others' score only jump when they increase their content). If we see a case where they gave Adelina the highest possible score (GOE and PCS) while giving Yuna the lowest possible score, then we would know for certain that they manipulated the score by at least 7-8 points, not even counting the unusual calls by the technical panel.
173 followed by 202 followed by 224?
PCS 30/60, 33/69, 36/75?
But looking at the unusual scores it looks (almost) like all the judge/ISU just suddenly decided that they didn't want Yuna to win and pushed the home skater who skated fantastically above Yuna while lowering her scores. You can tell that while there are two judges who scored them as high/low as they could, there is almost a systematic bias in favor of Adelina and against Yuna.
None of these things change the fact that with a fair tech controller like Shin Amano and with a fair judging panel we will see a sudden drop in her scores at the World Championships.
