The Judging Controversy Thread

[drivingmissdaisy]

Here is what I don't get. I thought Kostner jumped and skated better (more grace and conviction) than both Yuna and Adelina. Could you discuss that for a while maybe?

She did. However, she had almost zero transitions in the second half of her program and did less difficult jumps in the bonus (and less difficult jumps overall) than Yuna or Adelina. The lack of transitions affected the PCS and the jump difficulty affected her TES.

 

[wootie]

She did. However, she had almost zero transitions in the second half of her program and did less difficult jumps in the bonus (and less difficult jumps overall) than Yuna or Adelina. The lack of transitions affected the PCS and the jump difficulty affected her TES.

Ok, so Adelina back-loaded her program with more jumps. She had the LEAST transitions of all three top three ladies throughout her program and basically had no artistic interpretation to speak of (aside from a few silly arm movements that signified nothing).

 

[verysmuchso]

After all these years, Kostner deserves every accolade. But she looked like Big Bird with a sexy black negligee and some of her jump landings were wonky (or do I misremember?).

 

[pangtongfan]

ladies LP in Sochi,
base value: Sotnikova 61.43, Kim 57.49, Asada 66.34(!!!!!!)
TES: Sotnikova 74.54 (+13.11 GOEs), Kim 69.69 (+12.2 GOEs), Asada 73.03 (+6.69 ???)

I thought, you meant Mao Asada should have gotten HUGE GOEs with such a difficult program?!

Even with two downgrades, Mao's base value was WAY higher than anyone else.
Now, if we take the deductions for Adelina's under-rotated 3T....

Prior to this competition, Yuna was famous for getting HUGE bonuses for her textbook jumps.
All of a sudden, this advantage was wiped out. Amazing!

Adelina getting equal PCS as Yuna?? Wow, that is another joke.

Sotnikova with over 13 points in GOE with a bad flutz, a triple jump that should have been called UR, a bad stumble out of a jump, clunky footwork, and an ordinary spiral sequence, is too laughable for words. Almost (but not quite) as laughable as her comical PCS.

 

[usethis2]

This is exactly why I cannot understand how ISU put him as head of technical. It's like they brought it upon themselves to be criticized by the public. Even in an ordinary job, you get checked for criminal background, credit history, and any possible conflict of interest. The only two possible theories behind this are either that ISU is just lacking integrity to make this sports a fair game, i.e. plain dumb, or they're in this with the Russians. ISU better fix themselves soon or else figure skating may suffer in popularity.

Not to be pompous or anything, but I have 1,800+ people "following" my twitter/facebook accounts and I made sure to inform them of what had happened in Sochi and figure skating after the ladies event. If and when I conclude that figure skating can no longer be taken seriously I will let my followers know my feelings. (Again, apologies for being pompous but I could not figure out how to put this in words without sounding so.)

 

[dorispulaski]

Food for thought.....just reading the posts about the Sochi skating controversy...this came to mind..

When NASA first started sending up astronauts into space, they quickly discovered that the ballpoint pens would not work in zero gravity. To combat this problem, NASA spent a decade and over $12 million to develop a pen that works in zero gravity, upside down, under water and almost on any surface and at a temperature ranging below freezing up to 300 degrees C.......THE RUSSIANS USED A PENCIL!!!

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen/

A cute old story, but it is an urban myth. The real story is given above, and it is quite a bit more interesting. Thus we see that even though many people on the internet tell you the same thing,they are not necessarily right.

 

[millie]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen/

A cute old story, but it is an urban myth. The real story is given above, and it is quite a bit more interesting. Thus we see that even though many people on the internet tell you the same thing,they are not necessarily right.

Thanks for the info.......mine wasn't food for thought after all...lol

 

[cchen24]

She did. However, she had almost zero transitions in the second half of her program and did less difficult jumps in the bonus (and less difficult jumps overall) than Yuna or Adelina. The lack of transitions affected the PCS and the jump difficulty affected her TES.

ladies LP protocol: http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

1. base value of jumps done in the second half:
1) Mao 26.84, 2) Adelina 25.63, 3) Carolina 23.65, 4) Yuna 21.89
However, Adelina had a two foot landing in her 3 jump combo in the second half, which was marked only -1 in GOE by several judges. Very generous if you ask me, and the same judges also showered her with lots of +3s. It seems like they just witnessed one of the very best skaters in the history of figure skating.

2. Carolina has seven(!!) 10.0 in PCS (from 4 judges), the most out of all the ladies. (Yuna got four from two judges.)
To me, her PCS was held down simply because she skated before Adelina. Otherwise, her PCS would have been even higher.
Probably not! The evidence is Yuna's PCS being so close to Adelina's, basically a tie.
I believe some judges were very determined to hold everyone down but Adelina and Yulia.

Finally, one word about transitions. A few friends of mine said to me that their impression about Adelina's program was "busy". Yes, the program looked busy but not seamless to them. My guess is that when a skater's movements aren't very polished, adding tons of transitions and intricacy just gives people that kind of impression. That's why they thought that it would have been appropriate for Adelina to take the bronze.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Finally, one word about transitions. A few friends of mine said to me that their impression about Adelina's program was "busy". Yes, the program looked busy but not seamless to them. My guess is that when a skater's movements aren't very polished, adding tons of transitions and intricacy just gives people that kind of impression. That's why they thought that it would have been appropriate for Adelina to take the bronze.

I agree, it looks busy. As a viewer would I prefer fewer transitions and more flowy, gliding moves across the ice? Yes. However, the rules stipulate that transitions are to be rewarded in multiple places (i.e. both on GOE and PCS) and so it is. However, what I think looks better is not how the programs are to be judged; they are to be evaluated on certain criteria set out by the ISU. Transitions are rewarded because they are difficult, and difficulty is prized under this judging system.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

ladies LP protocol: http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

1. base value of jumps done in the second half:
1) Mao 26.84, 2) Adelina 25.63, 3) Carolina 23.65, 4) Yuna 21.89
However, Adelina had a two foot landing in her 3 jump combo in the second half, which was marked only -1 in GOE by several judges. Very generous if you ask me, and the same judges also showered her with lots of +3s. It seems like they just witnessed one of the very best skaters in the history of figure skating.

. Carolina has seven(!!) 10.0 in PCS (from 4 judges), the most out of all the ladies. (Yuna got four from two judges.)
To me, her PCS was held down simply because she skated before Adelina. Otherwise, her PCS would have been even higher.
Probably not! The evidence is Yuna's PCS being so close to Adelina's, basically a tie.
I believe some judges were very determined to hold everyone down but Adelina and Yulia.

Finally, one word about transitions. A few friends of mine said to me that their impression about Adelina's program was "busy". Yes, the program looked busy but not seamless to them. My guess is that when a skater's movements aren't very polished, adding tons of transitions and intricacy just gives people that kind of impression. That's why they thought that it would have been appropriate for Adelina to take the bronze.

1) The Russian style,which a Russian judge will likely embrace, is more "busy" and often rewarded by COP if executed well. While I understand it may not be your cup of tea that isn't fair to just disregard it and expect everyone to. That doesn't mean that one is better than the other but a fair person at least respects both and views it with a fair mind. In other words you may think yellow cars are ugly but it's not fair to expect everyone to agree.

While I fully appreciate the expressive nature of Yuna, she was my favorite skater until Yulia came along, I actually prefer less facial expression and more body expressions in skating. That's just my opinion though and I understand if someone disagrees.

Someone played a video that tied the Russian judge to all of Adelina's events this season. Honestly that explained the high marks to me right there if in fact you believe the circumstantial evidence that she is the high scoring judge on the protocols. If you watched Adelina all season you know her FS was more miss than hit. At GPF it was very very comical actually. No wonder she was blown away right. Like if you drove down a road with potholes all year and all of a sudden it's smooth blacktop. I'm not trying to justify but maybe trying to shed light that there may actually be sincerity behind some of the scores. I still think Yuna got the medal she deserved and Caro was the one who got the short end of the stick but then again. There really is THREE sides to this story. I'm trying to see them all.

 

[winky97]

I am not a crazy Yuna Kim fan, though I do enjoy her skating, but because I enjoy good skating. I think that the messed up judging started in the SP. Adelina did a junior level combination jump, when the other top ladies performed more difficult programs, but she received a higher mark than Kostner and was almost tied with Kim. Adelina should have actually been in 4th place after the SP and not where near Kim or Kostner.

As far as Adelina's LP, she jumped and spun like a girl on fire, but her artistry was ZERO. She was pulling an imaginary rope and came off almost like a circus performer IMO. Adelina's composition marks were similar to Kim's in both programs. I am unsure in what twisted fairytale Adelina is close to Kim or Kostner composition wise, but hey, I was not judging the event. I think Adelina should have gotten bronze, and that's just because the other girls fell.

I struggle, because I recognize that Adelina is a 17 year old girl and my issues with the judging are not her fault. I really don't want to be bashing her, but she took over first place on my list as the worst female OGM. Sarah Hughes used to hold top spot, but I felt in the case of Sarah Hughes, she at least earned the medal because she was the best that night. Adelina, I believe, did not.

Ironically, while I liked Kim's skating, I became a bigger fan of hers because of how she has handled herself in all this. She has been very classy. Unfortunately not so for many of her diehards, but a lot of Adelina's supporters have been crappy too.

I know this is over with but just wanted to add two cents. If I repeated stuff that had been said already, sorry, but I could not bring myself to read through these threads.

 

[gkelly]

Ok, so Adelina back-loaded her program with more jumps. She had the LEAST transitions of all three top three ladies throughout her program and basically had no artistic interpretation to speak of (aside from a few silly arm movements that signified nothing).

Finally, one word about transitions. A few friends of mine said to me that their impression about Adelina's program was "busy". Yes, the program looked busy but not seamless to them. My guess is that when a skater's movements aren't very polished, adding tons of transitions and intricacy just gives people that kind of impression.

The criteria for the Transitions component are Variety, Difficulty, Intricacy, and Quality.

Movements appearing polished and seamless would contribute to the Quality criterion. So let's say Kostner and Kim excelled there.

Sotnikova did better on Variety and Intricacy. Does that need explanation? I.e., she had the MOST transitions of all three top ladies -- whether you, or the judges, liked them is another question, but they were definitely there.

How do we want to evaluate difficulty?

Another thing that would contribute both to the Transitions score and to Skating Skills, especially "multidirectional skating," was that whereas Kostner and Kim several times each used 3, 4, 5, 6 crossovers in a row to build up speed into jumps, Sotnikova always broke up her crossovers with turns, usually in both directions or the opposite direction of the jump or used simple turns to generate speed instead of relying on crossovers. The only time she did 3 crossovers in a row that I could find was between the step sequence and the choreo sequence.

I remember hearing from coaches, 15-20 years ago, long before IJS came along, that "judges don't like to see more than two crossovers in a row" and that it's better to break them up, even if only with a stretched glide or a couple of mohawks. Sotnikova and her team evidently took that advice to heart.

So they had different strengths and weaknesses within those components. Depending which aspects of them were most important to different judges, there could be a case for similar scores or for rewarding either more than the other.

 

[Petitefleur]

ladies LP in Sochi,
base value: Sotnikova 61.43, Kim 57.49, Asada 66.34(!!!!!!)
TES: Sotnikova 74.54 (+13.11 GOEs), Kim 69.69 (+12.2 GOEs), Asada 73.03 (+6.69 ???) . I thought, you meant Mao Asada should have gotten HUGE GOEs with such a difficult program?! Even with two downgrades, Mao's base value was WAY higher than anyone else.Now, if we take the deductions for Adelina's under-rotated 3T....Prior to this competition, Yuna was famous for getting HUGE bonuses for her textbook jumps. All of a sudden, this advantage was wiped out. Amazing!Adelina getting equal PCS as Yuna?Wow, that is another joke.

Yuna was not so good at Sochi (219.11) than in Vancouver (228.56) 4 years ago ! as you say "prior to this competition Yuna was famous..." ! check !
Their marks at the 2010 World Championships one month after the Games (190.79), so a difference of 29 points in one month !) second behind Asada...
2011 WC (194.50), second behind Miki Ando,
1st at the 2013 WC (218.31) BUT far from her personal best ,
recently at the Golden Spin in Zagreb in december her marks were still lower than her PB (204.49), of course she has been injured this season. She had other personal interest in her life. Motivations are different.
Her marks at Sochi were her best marks since the crown in Vancouver.
Mao had 3 downgrades, and low goe by all the judges, her program was ambitious with 8 jumps but what about her execution for all the elements ...
Of course, before the OG, I expected a dual between Yuna and Mao and another one between Kostner and Lipnistkaia... The biggest crash in the short was Mao. a minor crash for Lipnitskaia...I had the same feeling in Salt Lake city , it was a surprise when Hugues surpassed the 2 favorites (Kwan, Slutskaia), and however Hugues never confirmed her supremacy .

 

[Petitefleur]

After all these years, Kostner deserves every accolade. But she looked like Big Bird with a sexy black negligee and some of her jump landings were wonky (or do I misremember?).

you are right for the jumps

 

[Petitefleur]

personnaly, I like classical and modern ballet, I have practiced both. I deplore the lack of real choreography in the skating programs ... to the point that I feel to watch the same choreography from a music to another. I like Abbott! Regarding the ladies, I particularly liked the choreography of the short programs ( Kostner and Sotnikova, even bored by another Carmen), free programs (Kostner, Kim and Sotnikova).
Saying that Sotnikova had silly arm movements signifying nothing indicates a total ignorance of contemporary ballet.

 

[cchen24]

Yuna was not so good at Sochi (219.11) than in Vancouver (228.56) 4 years ago ! as you say "prior to this competition Yuna was famous..." ! check !
Their marks at the 2010 World Championships one month after the Games (190.79), so a difference of 29 points in one month !) second behind Asada...

It is really hard to compare scores from different competitions, especially from different seasons since:
1) judges could easily inflate/deflate PCS,
2) rules of CoP keep changing, for example the bonuses of positive GOEs are now only 70% of what they were four years ago in Vancouver. In other words, if the competition in Vancouver was judged by today's rules, Yuna's score would have been lower.

You seem to focus on the absolute value of the scores and the so-called personal best, but you probably don't realize how the scores would fluctuate due to the two aforementioned factors.

However, you need to check how big of a margin Yuna managed to win over her main competitors in Vancouver 2010, and at Worlds 2013. She managed that mostly by her text book jumps which usually garner tons of +2~+3 in GOEs, and of course her high PCS.

 

[cchen24]

I agree, it looks busy. As a viewer would I prefer fewer transitions and more flowy, gliding moves across the ice? Yes. However, the rules stipulate that transitions are to be rewarded in multiple places (i.e. both on GOE and PCS) and so it is. However, what I think looks better is not how the programs are to be judged; they are to be evaluated on certain criteria set out by the ISU. Transitions are rewarded because they are difficult, and difficulty is prized under this judging system.

The question will always be how much those unpolished transitions should be rewarded, not if those moves should be rewarded. Of course, they should be rewarded under CoP.

As a viewer, I prefer polished moves on the ice, period. I don't mind a ton of transitions in a program if they are polished.

I am a musician and this might be a good metaphor for what happened in Sochi:
musician A performs an easier piece of music with a great tone and excellent interpretation
vs
musician B performs a more difficult piece of music with an OK tone and OK interpretation

Who should win?

As a matter of fact in the music world, to get into a professional orchestra, the standard repertoire for the auditions usually includes some technically easy pieces of music, because they immediately reveal how good your basics are. And it takes a long time to refine the basics.

 

[BusyMom]

personnaly, I like classical and modern ballet, I have practiced both. I deplore the lack of real choreography in the skating programs ... to the point that I feel to watch the same choreography from a music to another. I like Abbott! Regarding the ladies, I particularly liked the choreography of the short programs ( Kostner and Sotnikova, even bored by another Carmen), free programs (Kostner, Kim and Sotnikova).
Saying that Sotnikova had silly arm movements signifying nothing indicates a total ignorance of contemporary ballet.

You can't compare Ballet to present day FS. The present IJS' requirements, especially those crazy transitions, have no room left for the nice choreography. If you look at Phillip Mills' programs, he has a outstanding works but not much more than the rest in the fields. Since he was an accomplished professional ballet dancer, you must have an idea how hard it is to come up with the real choreography.
Also, ballet dancers required insane hours of training to get to the top. All elite skaters have to put at least 6 hours of training each days. They have not much hours left for ballet, off-ice training, dance lesson and weight training.

 

[cchen24]

T
Movements appearing polished and seamless would contribute to the Quality criterion. So let's say Kostner and Kim excelled there.

Sotnikova did better on Variety and Intricacy. Does that need explanation? I.e., she had the MOST transitions of all three top ladies -- whether you, or the judges, liked them is another question, but they were definitely there.

I'd request to add Mao Asada into the analysis. Her program is packed with a lot of transitions as well.
How on earth her PCS were so low compared with the top three in LP?
3 crossovers -> 3A
3 crossovers + footwork -> 3F-3L
3 crossovers + footwork -> 3Z
She is the one doing the most difficult jumps in the second half of the program.
I also noticed she didn't do more than 3 crossovers in a row to set up her jumps in the second half.
I noticed a lot of transitions in her LP, but with a big difference from Adelina's, yes Mao was way more polished. It has taken Mao, Caro and Yuna several years of hard work to refine their movements to their current status and Adelina is simply not there yet.

But her PCS was 0.5 to 1 point lower than the top three in EACH category.
I mean, really?! I still believe Mao should have won the LP with a comfortable margin.

All I can say is that certainly judges were either incompetent or having an agenda.
More detailed analysis is probably not going to help justify this controversy.

Adelina did the cleanest LP of the season in Sochi and she got a huge boost in PCS.
Mao did a LP which is probably her career best but she got almost no boost in PCS.
I mean really?!

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

@cchen24

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?49694-DIY-Judging&p=881488#post881488

Read Blades of Passions scores on this page. It may help. I too think Mao like EVERYONE except Ashley were over scored. I'd say Polina was the most over scored and Yulia in a tight second but in Yulia's case a lot of it was reputation and that's just how skating is. Fair or not I think a lot of judges set par for the girls before the programs begin and make small adjustments as they go. Again maybe not fair but at least realistic. If Yulia had gone clean in the FS with Olympic inflation she'd have been around 145 too. I'd have scored her closer to 130 but then again I'd have Yuna closer to 140. On top of that the scores are an average of multiple judges from multiple federations all with its own preferences in skating styles etc.