The Judging Controversy Thread

[capcomeback]

While I do not like the idea of a wife of the a federation's top dogs judging I simply can't see it any more of a conflict of interest than sending anyone who is a member of a federation to represent on a judging panel. I mean aren't both going to judge more in favor of the skaters that represent the "style" of skating promoted by their federation. Why would one be anymore bias than the other. I think this is a fair question.

Judges should be affiliated with the ISU and not any specific country's skating body.

 

[starrynight]

There is a process for how the judges are "manipulated" as well

You should read the judge selection process before you get outraged over this. Of course it was Putin who kicked off two judges he didn't like.

Based on your OPs, you sound like you read a process for how Putin kicked off two judges he did not like. It will be great if you share the good read with posters.

 

[Spinerette]

The IOC printed fake quotes from Yuna Kim and her agency has caught it. According to the IOC, Yuna said "She put on a great show, she's a highly technical skater and was very difficult to beat tonight. i saw her in Innsbruck as part of my role as games ambassador. We both battled for gold tonight, but she managed to come out on top." After Kim's agency caught the fake quotes, they had them removed but did not state that they put out fake quotes.

http://www.thewire.com/culture/2014/...#disqus_thread

This goes to show you that it was a cover up because they removed Yuna's quotes.

 

[jkaruna]

The IOC Printed Fake Quotes of Kim Yu-na Praising Adelina Sotnikova

http://www.thewire.com/culture/2014...-kim-yu-na-praising-adelina-sotnikova/358956/

 

[fruitbasket]

The IOC printed fake quotes from Yuna Kim and her agency has caught it. According to the IOC, Yuna said "She put on a great show, she's a highly technical skater and was very difficult to beat tonight. i saw her in Innsbruck as part of my role as games ambassador. We both battled for gold tonight, but she managed to come out on top." After Kim's agency caught the fake quotes, they had them removed but did not state that they put out fake quotes.

http://www.thewire.com/culture/2014/...#disqus_thread

This goes to show you that it was a cover up because they removed Yuna's quotes.

what a shame....

remove politic and anonymous subjective judging systems from competitions....

 

[fruitbasket]

The IOC Printed Fake Quotes of Kim Yu-na Praising Adelina Sotnikova

http://www.thewire.com/culture/2014...-kim-yu-na-praising-adelina-sotnikova/358956/

Why IOC printed fake quote??? IOC try to send a wrong messages to public??? WHY???/

 

[norev]

what the heck is the IOC doing??? 1st they posted a commentary with wrong jumps and now this fake quotes...
the public is slowly trying to move on but by this they are adding more fuels to the flames.. im really disappointed to the way the IOC deals with this controversy. i love olympics especially figure skating but because of this i dont know if i still follow FS, knowing that the judges might be biased to particular skater and skaters might not be judge by their own worth..

 

[Mathman]

That's 6.0 thinking. In IJS they're specifically not supposed to be placing skaters, and there's no way to know exactly how they place skaters in overall totals.

In my opinion the CoP model places unnatural and impossible burdens on the judges. It is the most natural thing in the world to see three performances and say, in my judgement, this performance was better that that one, but not as good as the other one.

Suppose you had to "judge" a horse race without benefit of a mechanical aid like a stopwatch. It is easy to see that this horse won, that one was second, and the other third. It is quite silly to suppose that a judge could say, with any accuracy or consistency, that I think this horse ran the race in about 2 minutes and 10 seconds, while other one took 2 minutes and 11.5 seconds.

People just like to compare things. That is the whole basis of competition.

 

[Anna K.]

In my opinion the CoP model places unnatural and impossible burdens on the judges. It is the most natural thing in the world to see three performances and say, in my judgement, this performance was better that that one, but not as good as the other one.

Suppose you had to "judge" a horse race without benefit of a mechanical aid like a stopwatch. It is easy to see that this horse won, that one was second, and the other third. It is quite silly to suppose that a judge could say, with any accuracy or consistency, that I think this horse ran the race in about 2 minutes and 10 seconds, while other one took 2 minutes and 11.5 seconds.

People just like to compare things. That is the whole basis of competition.

Why, you'd still have a mechanical aid of start line and the mechanical aid of finish line. Those do not appear there naturally. Then, at one point the horses would finish side-by-side and you'd need an extra finish line judge like in soccer
Technical aids are fine. I just doubt that CoP uses them in the smartest possible way.

I might agree that comparing things is the basis of competition on a casual basis, like, the salesman with better adverts would get better sales or a lady would go out with the better dressed gentleman, but is it the basis of sport? In fact, there's no need for sport or game if it's just about comparing. You can compare them and pick the winner while they're on the start line as well. There are contests it's done exactly that way.

 

[gkelly]

In my opinion the CoP model places unnatural and impossible burdens on the judges. It is the most natural thing in the world to see three performances and say, in my judgement, this performance was better that that one, but not as good as the other one.

Simple enough with three skaters. Even if they're all about the same level, you need to make a tough decision, but you can just decide what's most important to you and reward the skater who does that best.

Not so simple when there are 30 skaters, or even 12. And the better skaters make more mistakes. How do keep them all straight?

Suppose you had to "judge" a horse race without benefit of a mechanical aid like a stopwatch. It is easy to see that this horse won, that one was second, and the other third. It is quite silly to suppose that a judge could say, with any accuracy or consistency, that I think this horse ran the race in about 2 minutes and 10 seconds, while other one took 2 minutes and 11.5 seconds.

How do you "judge" a race in which the racers go one at a time, without a stopwatch?

 

[Vicky458]

The IOC Printed Fake Quotes of Kim Yu-na Praising Adelina Sotnikova

http://www.thewire.com/culture/2014...-kim-yu-na-praising-adelina-sotnikova/358956/

I am so upset! I love this sport but all this corruption is destroying figure skating. What I don't understand is why influential people in the sport are NOT getting involved. They all seem to be burying their heads in the sand. Sure, all of the fans are speaking out. But, our voices are going to deaf ears. The spirit of the Olympic Games has been destroyed! Shame on all of them!

 

[Anna K.]

How do you "judge" a race in which the racers go one at a time, without a stopwatch?

:agree:

However, there is a problem. The element score might have functions of a stopwatch in figure skating. But what about PCS? In a horse race, that would mean that a horse who made the distance in 17 seconds should be placed ahead of the horse who made it in 15 seconds because of having a nicer pace Then again, how to define the nicer pace?

 

[Anna K.]

The IOC Printed Fake Quotes of Kim Yu-na Praising Adelina Sotnikova

http://www.thewire.com/culture/2014...-kim-yu-na-praising-adelina-sotnikova/358956/

I am so upset! I love this sport but all this corruption is destroying figure skating. What I don't understand is why influential people in the sport are NOT getting involved. They all seem to be burying their heads in the sand. Sure, all of the fans are speaking out. But, our voices are going to deaf ears. The spirit of the Olympic Games has been destroyed! Shame on all of them!

There is thread in this forum where we discuss this particular incident:

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...nceded-defeat-based-on-a-fabricated-interview

 

[gkelly]

However, there is a problem. The element score might have functions of a stopwatch in figure skating. But what about PCS? In a horse race, that would mean that a horse who made the distance in 17 seconds should be placed ahead of the horse who made it in 15 seconds because of having a nicer pace Then again, how to define the nicer pace?

Well, that's where dressage would be better analogy than horse racing.

Horse racing is more comparable to speedskating.

 

[Anna K.]

Well, that's where dressage would be better analogy than horse racing.

Horse racing is more comparable to speedskating.

Dressage would be a fitting analogy for ice dance.

For others, I'd rather say the best analogy is equestrian jumping

 

[Petitefleur]

Probably why football has more fans than figure skating.

football is worse ! rigged games, a lot of money at stake, financial paris.
it is easy to let their opponents win ...
people love football because the rules are very simple.

 

[usethis2]

There are many things that can be done even with the existing system. Selecting the right judges is one. For example, create some sort of merit system with qualification (even exams) and have a term limit (e.g. 5/10 years). Create rules how hosting nations should avoid appearance of impropriety both for tech panels and judging panels. And get rid of anonymous judging as has been pointed out many times. Judges with improper conduct be penalized, regardless of motives/excuses. Create special committees after big-shot events like the Worlds/Olympics to review scoring. The list can go on but these are bare minimum that needs to be addressed. I believe most of them are unobjectionable even to Sochi apologists.

 

[capcomeback]

There are many things that can be done even with the existing system. Selecting the right judges is one. For example, create some sort of merit system with qualification (even exams) and have a term limit (e.g. 5/10 years). Create rules how hosting nations should avoid appearance of impropriety both for tech panels and judging panels. And get rid of anonymous judging as has been pointed out many times. Judges with improper conduct be penalized, regardless of motives/excuses. Create special committees after big-shot events like the Worlds/Olympics to review scoring. The list can go on but these are bare minimum that needs to be addressed. I believe most of them are unobjectionable even to Sochi apologists.

The problem is that this requires a public furor that has yet to happen. When you bring up the Olympic Women's Skating petition, they will shrug their shoulders and say that 90% of it is signed by South Koreans. Right now, Putin's escapade in Crimea and the corruption in that regional government has people distracted (and importantly so). The way to have changes happen is to complain loudly to the ISU (and local federations) from skating websites (like this one), threatening to stop following the sport. If you get no response, then send a petition NBC (in the US) and other international television broadcaster, threatening not to watch. To mix a metaphor, "hit 'em where it counts and then you have them by the short and curlies," lol

 

[usethis2]

To be honest, I did not see much in terms of choreography from Adelina from the top down. There were times that I'm not sure she even had a sense of what she was skating too (as it seemed that she was focused on the elements, just checking them off as she completed them). This lack of musicality is not totally unexpected from a seventeen year old girl, but should not be rewarded to the extent that it was in terms of her choreography or interpretation. Empty transitions (in other words movements for the sake of movement) should not be rewarded either.

I agree with you but wanted to inform you of a better consensus on this board.

1. Adelina had no choreography. (Discussion: What exactly was Sotnikova's theme in her long program?) Added with her junior-ish ice coverage and circular skating, even the apologists do not know what the heck her choreo is about. They instead resort to rhetoric such as "Adelina stole the night," "She was more athletic," which are either irrelevant or flat-out untrue.

2. With lack of choreo, there is no interpretation by definition. (with the exception of hand-waving, of course )

3. As to the quality of skating, we have an excellent post that is stickied in Figure Skating Reference forum: Evaluating Step Sequences

P.S. 17 year old Yuna and Mao (circa 2008~2009) had plenty of musicality and interpretation at that time. You can easily find their performances on YouTube.

 

[Anna K.]

The problem is that this requires a public furor that has yet to happen. When you bring up the Olympic Women's Skating petition, they will shrug their shoulders and say that 90% of it is signed by South Koreans. Right now, Putin's escapade in Crimea and the corruption in that regional government has people distracted (and importantly so). The way to have changes happen is to complain loudly to the ISU (and local federations) from skating websites (like this one), threatening to stop following the sport. If you get no response, then send a petition NBC (in the US) and other international television broadcaster, threatening not to watch. To mix a metaphor, "hit 'em where it counts and then you have them by the short and curlies," lol

Well, it will rather depend on how many will really stop following the sport at the end of the day. By now, both sports and television governing bodies probably hope that the scandal will bring more interest to figure skating.