The Judging Controversy Thread
- Thread starter Andre Smith
- Start date
Sheepskin lutzes! Sheepskin Salchows! Sheepkin Loops! Plushenko had them all. And Hanyu? One! Disgusting :disapp:
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
Maybe PT is right about Alla's toughness, I did find this video of her in her younger days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxQI3WkapYo
In all seriousness, is it possible to have some intermediate conclusions, after some 200 pages of discussion? Let's start with the basics. We will get to the individual elements and details (including the SP performances, and other skaters' performances/scores as well), but it would be great if we know where we stand clearly before moving further.
Here, we have a clip that compares Yuna and Adelina's FS. For overall skating, I want you to ask yourselves the followings;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NIHBJBAqU
Try answering each question. Copy/paste the questions next to your answer if necessary. Some may feel Q.9 to be rather subjective than the first 8 questions. It's up to you whether to ignore that question. I believe the rest of the questions can be answered in a fairly objective manner.
Here, we have a clip that compares Yuna and Adelina's FS. For overall skating, I want you to ask yourselves the followings;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NIHBJBAqU
- Who has a better flow?
- Who is more comfortable on the ice?
- Who is more sure-footed during the performance?
- Who skates with two feet more?
- Who skates faster?
- Who skates to music?
- Who skates with more ice coverage?
- Who skates more effortlessly?
- Who skates more gracefully? (carriage, style, lines, etc.)
Try answering each question. Copy/paste the questions next to your answer if necessary. Some may feel Q.9 to be rather subjective than the first 8 questions. It's up to you whether to ignore that question. I believe the rest of the questions can be answered in a fairly objective manner.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
I object your honor!!! The questions are all leading and calls for speculation!!
How about someone fair and unbiased asks such questions.
How about someone fair and unbiased asks such questions.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
And these:
1) Who does more triple jumps?
2) Who does more jumps in the bonus?
3) Who does more transitions?
4) Who does better spins?
5) Who does > 2x the number of back crossovers.
6) Who has long entrances into their jumps?
7) Who does harder entrances in to her jumps?
8) Who frequently relies on caressing her face to interpret the music?
9) Who has higher jumps?
10) Is this a popularity contest or an athletic competition?
1) Who does more triple jumps?
2) Who does more jumps in the bonus?
3) Who does more transitions?
4) Who does better spins?
5) Who does > 2x the number of back crossovers.
6) Who has long entrances into their jumps?
7) Who does harder entrances in to her jumps?
8) Who frequently relies on caressing her face to interpret the music?
9) Who has higher jumps?
10) Is this a popularity contest or an athletic competition?
Look, usethis2... I like you and I like Yuna but - it's the way you ask the question. It's not consensus. There will be counter asking like: "who had more agression", "who was more inspired", "who had more power" etc., etc. Do we need this?
Yuna is the one and only but still. Is it really the question about who skates better?
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
Seriously...who doesn't like Yuna? That's like not liking puppies!!
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/puppies-and-more/images/31104113/title/cute-puppies-wallpaper
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/puppies-and-more/images/31104113/title/cute-puppies-wallpaper
I chose those questions because those (supposedly) reflect the criteria of PCS. I wanted to know where everyone's opinion is on those criteria. You can add your own questions to my list.
I do not expect everyone to have the same opinion.
@Anna K.: I am listening. I think "consensus" might have been a wrong choice of word, at least not until there is clear leanings. I changed my post to reflect your wisdom.
I do not expect everyone to have the same opinion.
@Anna K.: I am listening. I think "consensus" might have been a wrong choice of word, at least not until there is clear leanings. I changed my post to reflect your wisdom.
Fingers crossed.
Click the previous page, people, if you want to see the post in question (and some funny stuff also on that page)
If you ever had a puppy... and took it to your mother-in-law's perfect home...
I leave the rest to your imagination.
This is what I consulted prior to making up the questions:
IJS: Introduction
So I will revise my questionaire. Others can add to it if deemed necessary. Again, our sample skatings are linked below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NIHBJBAqU (Skater A to the left, Skater B to the right)
Can people answer these questions in good faith, with no pre-judging and with no bias, while watching the linked clip? Does the list comprise fair questions that you would ask yourself if you were a judge in a figure skating event? If not, what questions would you add or omit?
I think this may be a good exercise to see where people's opinions are so far.
P.S. That interview of Tarasova in the previous pages is low even by her standard. Whichever version of translation you read.
IJS: Introduction
So I will revise my questionaire. Others can add to it if deemed necessary. Again, our sample skatings are linked below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NIHBJBAqU (Skater A to the left, Skater B to the right)
- Who has a better flow?
- Who is more comfortable on the ice?
- Who is more sure-footed during the performance?
- Who skates with two feet more?
- Who skates faster?
- Who skates to music?
- Who skates with more ice coverage?
- Who skates more effortlessly?
- Who skates more gracefully? (carriage, style, lines, etc.)
- Whose skate has more intricate linking elements?
- Whose skate has more personality and/or originality?
- Whose skate excites the audience more?
Can people answer these questions in good faith, with no pre-judging and with no bias, while watching the linked clip? Does the list comprise fair questions that you would ask yourself if you were a judge in a figure skating event? If not, what questions would you add or omit?
I think this may be a good exercise to see where people's opinions are so far.
P.S. That interview of Tarasova in the previous pages is low even by her standard. Whichever version of translation you read.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
Your honor...I renew my prior objection. This line of questioning is leading and calls for speculation.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
I'll be a good sport and play.
1) Carolina with Yuna close second.
2) Tie between Carolina and Adelina. Yuna looked tight.
3) I'm not sure what this means.
4) I don't think anyone can answer this unless they watch the programs with a stopwatch. I would guess Carolina but it is more based on impression rather than data.
5) Carolina but all skate fast.
6) I'd say Carolina but Yuna and Adelina do also. Before you say Adelina doesn't look at where she places the 2A-3T in line with the end of a music passage. That is just one example.
7) Yuna
8) Yuna and Carolina tied
9) Yuna
10) Adelina
11) I thought Carolina had the most original program and brought personality to a difficult piece. Carolina had more personality hands down, particularly the steps.
12) Adelina by a mile
Who has a better flow? Yuna
Who is more comfortable on the ice? Caro
Who is more sure-footed during the performance? Yuna
Who skates with two feet more? Not sure, but Adelina's choreo stands out to me more than the others in this respect
Who skates faster? If we're debating top 3 as usual, I think Caro edges out Yuna. Adelina is understandably slower because of the extra choreography
Who skates to music? Yuna and Caro both have good musicality, but Yuna's musical choice was more ambitious and she performed with exactitude (Bolero's monotonous beat is much easier to hold onto). Adelina - not sure. I want to see her sp again, b/c I think her timing was better in that one, than in Capriccioso (then again, it was not unlike Bolero in terms of the easy rhythm...)
Who skates with more ice coverage? Need to rewatch the fancams, but I think Yuna and Caro utilized the most space.
Who skates more effortlessly? Yuna
Who skates more gracefully? (carriage, style, lines, etc.) Yuna doesn't have perfect lines, but she moves like a stream of water. Carolina's lines are better, and she is very graceful too, but the telegraphing can be disruptive (style), whereas Yuna's delivery of the choreo & jumps is pretty much seamless. Adelina is not naturally graceful (carriage, style), but she does have beautiful lines.
Whose skate has more intricate linking elements? Adelina (although it was sloppy, so score-wise I feel it's worth the same as doing less, but w/better quality)
Whose skate has more personality and/or originality? Caro's checked both boxes. Adelina's choreo was original, though I didn't care for the aesthetic. I though it had personality for the last 1/3 of the way, but the opening 2/3 was kind of empty. I felt Yuna's was infused with personality and variety, but it was more understated than Caro's.
Whose skate excites the audience more? Adelina (see below ^*^)
Some of that doesn't sound right to me :think: Like I think they should judge performance and execution separately, because of the "passionless robot" thing (perfect execution, but no performance value, and you can also have the opposite). I also don't get why they pair choreography with composition, instead of interpretation??? Methinks it should be more like this:
^*^Adelina & Yulia's reception in Sochi really makes me think, and tbh, I'm kind of torn about whether the crowd's reaction should factor into this aspect, because the crowd usually cheers for the jumps and spins, which have nothing to do with projection, and most of the time they do so out of simple politeness. The only time you can tell if they are really "buying" the performance that the skater is selling is if they clap along for a step sequence or a dramatic element like a spiral or a unique piece of choreography. Sometimes you can tell because of the skater's ability to silence the crowd, like that moment in Kwan's Salome where she freezes and creates this tension in the air with the music - you could hear a pin drop. She had everyone invested in those last few seconds of the program. That's projection. Same with Baiul's exhibition in Lillihammer - rapt attention - they didn't even clap for her last spin. She had them all under her spell. Then again, there are times like at this Olympics with Wagner, where the skater has amazing projection, but the crowd is totally dead. It kind of reminded me of this time when my dance company was invited to perform at a juvenile detention center lol. We did a tap number to 40s swing medley that we had been practicing all year. We had it down, and we went full out, in-character, full-costumes, etc. The kids just stared at us like they were bored out of their minds
As far as scoring is concerned, it begs the question "if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" (ie, if a skater sells their program to the max, and the crowd doesn't care, does it mean they were not projecting?) I learn toward not letting the audience be the judge of that :sarcasm: Or rather, not letting the number of decibels in the arena dictate the score for this component. The judges are also part of the audience, but they don't have the freedom to be partisan. Unlike the spectators, they also have the expertise to determine the performance value of a skate.
*choice of word: my dance teacher used to liken dance to language & sometimes compared it to sign language (so executing a piece of choreography = "communication").
**added that because I think area coverage has to do with the "principles of space" and "arrangement of all movements" (how you choose to utilize the space during the alotted time).
Who is more comfortable on the ice? Caro
Who is more sure-footed during the performance? Yuna
Who skates with two feet more? Not sure, but Adelina's choreo stands out to me more than the others in this respect
Who skates faster? If we're debating top 3 as usual, I think Caro edges out Yuna. Adelina is understandably slower because of the extra choreography
Who skates to music? Yuna and Caro both have good musicality, but Yuna's musical choice was more ambitious and she performed with exactitude (Bolero's monotonous beat is much easier to hold onto). Adelina - not sure. I want to see her sp again, b/c I think her timing was better in that one, than in Capriccioso (then again, it was not unlike Bolero in terms of the easy rhythm...)
Who skates with more ice coverage? Need to rewatch the fancams, but I think Yuna and Caro utilized the most space.
Who skates more effortlessly? Yuna
Who skates more gracefully? (carriage, style, lines, etc.) Yuna doesn't have perfect lines, but she moves like a stream of water. Carolina's lines are better, and she is very graceful too, but the telegraphing can be disruptive (style), whereas Yuna's delivery of the choreo & jumps is pretty much seamless. Adelina is not naturally graceful (carriage, style), but she does have beautiful lines.
Whose skate has more intricate linking elements? Adelina (although it was sloppy, so score-wise I feel it's worth the same as doing less, but w/better quality)
Whose skate has more personality and/or originality? Caro's checked both boxes. Adelina's choreo was original, though I didn't care for the aesthetic. I though it had personality for the last 1/3 of the way, but the opening 2/3 was kind of empty. I felt Yuna's was infused with personality and variety, but it was more understated than Caro's.
Whose skate excites the audience more? Adelina (see below ^*^)
Some of that doesn't sound right to me :think: Like I think they should judge performance and execution separately, because of the "passionless robot" thing (perfect execution, but no performance value, and you can also have the opposite). I also don't get why they pair choreography with composition, instead of interpretation??? Methinks it should be more like this:
- Performance - the emotional involvement as they translate the intent of the music (personality, projection^*^, and variety).
- Choreography - the interpretation of the music into movement (e.g. timing, expression of the music, use of nuances, relationship between partners, character of music).
- Execution - the physical involvement as they communicate* their choreography (carriage, style, and contrasts).
- Composition - the arrangement of all movements according to the principles of proportion, space and music (e.g. design, phrasing, idea, concept, unity, originality, pattern, and ice coverage**).
^*^Adelina & Yulia's reception in Sochi really makes me think, and tbh, I'm kind of torn about whether the crowd's reaction should factor into this aspect, because the crowd usually cheers for the jumps and spins, which have nothing to do with projection, and most of the time they do so out of simple politeness. The only time you can tell if they are really "buying" the performance that the skater is selling is if they clap along for a step sequence or a dramatic element like a spiral or a unique piece of choreography. Sometimes you can tell because of the skater's ability to silence the crowd, like that moment in Kwan's Salome where she freezes and creates this tension in the air with the music - you could hear a pin drop. She had everyone invested in those last few seconds of the program. That's projection. Same with Baiul's exhibition in Lillihammer - rapt attention - they didn't even clap for her last spin. She had them all under her spell. Then again, there are times like at this Olympics with Wagner, where the skater has amazing projection, but the crowd is totally dead. It kind of reminded me of this time when my dance company was invited to perform at a juvenile detention center lol. We did a tap number to 40s swing medley that we had been practicing all year. We had it down, and we went full out, in-character, full-costumes, etc. The kids just stared at us like they were bored out of their minds
As far as scoring is concerned, it begs the question "if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" (ie, if a skater sells their program to the max, and the crowd doesn't care, does it mean they were not projecting?) I learn toward not letting the audience be the judge of that :sarcasm: Or rather, not letting the number of decibels in the arena dictate the score for this component. The judges are also part of the audience, but they don't have the freedom to be partisan. Unlike the spectators, they also have the expertise to determine the performance value of a skate.*choice of word: my dance teacher used to liken dance to language & sometimes compared it to sign language (so executing a piece of choreography = "communication").
**added that because I think area coverage has to do with the "principles of space" and "arrangement of all movements" (how you choose to utilize the space during the alotted time).
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
I♥Yuna;885127 said:Who has a better flow? Yuna
Who is more comfortable on the ice? Caro
Who is more sure-footed during the performance? Yuna
Who skates with two feet more? Not sure, but Adelina's choreo stands out to me more than the others in this respect
Who skates faster? If we're debating top 3 as usual, I think Caro edges out Yuna. Adelina is understandably slower because of the extra choreography
Who skates to music? Yuna and Caro both have good musicality, but Yuna's musical choice was more ambitious and she performed with exactitude (Bolero's monotonous beat is much easier to hold onto). Adelina - not sure. I want to see her sp again, b/c I think her timing was better in that one, than in Capriccioso (then again, it was not unlike Bolero in terms of the easy rhythm...)
Who skates with more ice coverage? Need to rewatch the fancams, but I think Yuna and Caro utilized the most space.
Who skates more effortlessly? Yuna
Who skates more gracefully? (carriage, style, lines, etc.) Yuna doesn't have perfect lines, but she moves like a stream of water. Carolina's lines are better, and she is very graceful too, but the telegraphing can be disruptive (style), whereas Yuna's delivery of the choreo & jumps is pretty much seamless. Adelina is not naturally graceful (carriage, style), but she does have beautiful lines.
Whose skate has more intricate linking elements? Adelina (although it was sloppy, so score-wise I feel it's worth the same as doing less, but w/better quality)
Whose skate has more personality and/or originality? Caro's checked both boxes. Adelina's choreo was original, though I didn't care for the aesthetic. I though it had personality for the last 1/3 of the way, but the opening 2/3 was kind of empty. I felt Yuna's was infused with personality and variety, but it was more understated than Caro's.
Whose skate excites the audience more? Adelina (see below ^*^)
Some of that doesn't sound right to me :think: Like I think they should judge performance and execution separately, because of the "passionless robot" thing (perfect execution, but no performance value, and you can also have the opposite). I also don't get why they pair choreography with composition, instead of interpretation??? Methinks it should be more like this:
- Performance - the emotional involvement as they translate the intent of the music (personality, projection^*^, and variety).
- Choreography - the interpretation of the music into movement (e.g. timing, expression of the music, use of nuances, relationship between partners, character of music).
- Execution - the physical involvement as they communicate* their choreography (carriage, style, and contrasts).
- Composition - the arrangement of all movements according to the principles of proportion, space and music (e.g. design, phrasing, idea, concept, unity, originality, pattern, and ice coverage**).
^*^Adelina & Yulia's reception in Sochi really makes me think, and tbh, I'm kind of torn about whether the crowd's reaction should factor into this aspect, because the crowd usually cheers for the jumps and spins, which have nothing to do with projection, and most of the time they do so out of simple politeness. The only time you can tell if they are really "buying" the performance that the skater is selling is if they clap along for a step sequence or a dramatic element like a spiral or a unique piece of choreography. Sometimes you can tell because of the skater's ability to silence the crowd, like that moment in Kwan's Salome where she freezes and creates this tension in the air with the music - you could hear a pin drop. She had everyone invested in those last few seconds of the program. That's projection. Same with Baiul's exhibition in Lillihammer - rapt attention - they didn't even clap for her last spin. She had them all under her spell. Then again, there are times like at this Olympics with Wagner, where the skater has amazing projection, but the crowd is totally dead. It kind of reminded me of this time when my dance company was invited to perform at a juvenile detention center lol. We did a tap number to 40s swing medley that we had been practicing all year. We had it down, and we went full out, in-character, full-costumes, etc. The kids just stared at us like they were bored out of their minds
*choice of word: my dance teacher used to liken dance to language & sometimes compared it to sign language (so executing a piece of choreography = "communication").
**added that because I think area coverage has to do with the "principles of space" and "arrangement of all movements" (how you choose to utilize the space during the alotted time).
I don't think you can accurately judge ANY crowd reaction at Sochi, because you had a crowd that went beyond the realm of partisan into the downright bigoted. Whether or not that crowd was filled with people who have never seen a skating competition before, the reactions of most of the Russians there were determined strictly by nationality. So it's hardly fair to use it to assess ANY skater's ability to engage an audience.
I did not mean to add Carolina to the equation because we do not have side-by-side videos or something similar, where a direct comparison is possible. We may be able to do so in the future but adding Carolina is probably not a good idea in this thought experiment because then some will add Mao, Yulia, and even Gracie to the mix. We can of course do that later on, but since the biggest question mark on this thread has been Adelina's scores, I think it's wise to stick to what we can actually see. Especially since the video was created for the apparent purpose of vindicating Adelina's "win," I wanted to strictly focus on the hard evidence we have, instead of things we are unsure of.
If someone has a 3-way comparison video, I would love to see it, though, and we can probably answer the questions with all 3 of them as options. But for this video and the questions, my intended answers are strictly either 1) Adelina or 2) Yuna.
If someone has a 3-way comparison video, I would love to see it, though, and we can probably answer the questions with all 3 of them as options. But for this video and the questions, my intended answers are strictly either 1) Adelina or 2) Yuna.
I truly feel it's an unreliable indicator of a skater's performance - in Sochi, yes - but also in any competition. I think it's perfectly possible for the members of a panel to go into the average competition without biases, but then be influenced by a crowd to be more lenient with the crowd favorites. Maybe that kind of bias could be minimized by using special noise-cancelling headphones, to diminish the noise from the crowd?
Well, that makes it easier lol:
Who has a better flow? Yuna
Who is more comfortable on the ice? If Caro is out of the equation, I don't know. Adelina seemed comfortable in front of the crowd, but is that the same as being "comfortable on the ice"? Yuna looks much more at home on the ice than Adelina (skating style is choppier = lacks grace - but there's already another question about gracefuleness, so I'm still at a loss of how to answer this one).
Who is more sure-footed during the performance? Yuna
Who skates with two feet more? Again, not totally sure, but Adelina's choreo stands out in this respect
Who skates faster? Yuna
Who skates to music? Yuna
Who skates with more ice coverage? Yuna
Who skates more effortlessly? Yuna
Who skates more gracefully? (carriage, style, lines, etc.) Yuna
Whose skate has more intricate linking elements? Adelina
Whose skate has more personality and/or originality? I'm split on this one. Originality (although not my taste) = Adelina, Personality (albeit understated) = Yuna
Whose skate excites the audience more? Adelina
Even my 3-year old knows machines can't translate. But by all means, feel free to stick with the word salad your "translation softwares" spit out and justify the lies people tell to suit their agendas. Enjoy your sheepskin lutzes.I guess there's have no choice but to take your word for it, contrary to running the translation through multiple translation softwares in different languages so no wonder people reacted the way they did. How interesting then Tat need to bring up the costumes and putting herself forward as some sort of spokeswoman for what the judges think. These facts alone says a lot. Sotnikova's Carmen is a superior program to Send in the clown, especially interpretation???
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
I found watching the side-by-side videos difficult because they aren't doing the same elements at the same time, so there is rarely and opportunity for a valid comparison.
