The Judging Controversy Thread

[drivingmissdaisy]

Again, it was her best performance but it was not perfect, it was not flawless. She had mistakes that weren't called as what have been discussed here OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

SO what? This isn't 6.0. You don't have to be clean to have the highest scoring program. You don't have to be the most graceful. You don't even have to be the best at everything. You just have to accrue the most points. Kim's strategy was to accrue the points mainly on jumps and artistry. Adelina's was jumps, spins, and more complex choreography. Both were good strategies as they netted the skaters great scores.

As far as the rising scores, the judges had direct comparison of the skaters. Is it fair for a judge to give Caro 142 and then if they feel Adelina skated better to give her a score lower solely on the fact that in the past she hasn't scored as high. That is silly. If you have the three skaters in front of you, you judge them based on what they presented in front of you, not how they have been scored in the past. Why even have a competition if you are only going to score in ranges based on past results? If someone wins the night they need to be awarded the score they earned.

 

[WeakAnkles]

On the other hand, look how long Lance Armstrong got away with doping. In spite of all that, there's no evidence that cycling is getting any cleaner. And Michael Vick is playing football again and don't even get me started on A-Rod, Clemens, and....

Sheesh, I better quit before my fingers run away w/ me any more. Just making a point, not disagreeing w/ your basic premise at all!

Ah but karma is catching up to each one of them isn't it?

Lance Armstrong: stripped of all Tour de France victories; lifetime ban from the sport.

A-Roid: suspended for the entire 2014 season (and putting his quest for the 3000 hit club in jeopardy).

Roger Clemens: hmm, a bit trickier. If the first federal trial hadn't been marred by prosecutorial shenanigans, things might have turned out differently. But he is going to be denied the biggest plum of them all: inclusion in the Hall of Fame.

Can't tell you about Michael Vick, because I don't follow football at all (that's my brother--he loves football and hockey; I love baseball, rugby...and figure skating! )

In each case, they may have gotten away with it for a long time, but you don't see the Tour de France having Armstrong to present the yellow jersey. Or MLB inviting any of the baseball players to throw out the first pitch at a World Series Game, do you? And none of the baseball players are going to Cooperstown, mark my words. Not to mention how many potential millions each will lose because who is going to have them endorse their products?

Unlike the ISU, which invites you back to the [judging] table after slapping your wrist. Lightly. Very very lightly.

 

[capcomeback]

Shared ethnicity is not proof of anything. Baranova and Lakernik need to be proved to have given illegitimate levels. It's true that if gusmeroli gave an interview under oath in a court proceeding she mayb be forced to tell the truth if she saw anything illegimate. The Russian judge has no history of corruption like balkov of ukraine. There was evidence again balkov 16 hears ago with limited cell phones and texting and email.

Alla Shekhovtsova was alleged to have conspired in the 2002 SLC scandal with a Russian mobster but it was never proven. Skeptics believed that she backed out at the last minute (she was the judge that was believed to have "traded votes" with the French Pairs Judge, who had been coerced).

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2002/0...have-contacted-six-skating-judges-police-say/
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/top-skating-officials-deny-wrongdoing/244375.html

Granted, these allegations were never proven, but when situations like Sochi happen, it makes you think long and hard that it might have been true.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Alla Shekhovtsova was alleged to have conspired in the 2002 SLC scandal with a Russian mobster but it was never proven. Skeptics believed that she backed out at the last minute (she was the judge that was believed to have "traded votes" with the French Pairs Judge, who had been coerced).

A lot of things are "alleged" in skating.

 

[gmyers]

Dont bother trying to reason. Eight judges marked Adelina very high and ubers want to keep focusing on two. If Adelina didn't skate exceptionally well she would have had high marks from two judges, not eight. Judges from at least four of these countries marked Adelina high: CAN, JPN, GER, ITA, FRA. Why? Throw out Adelina's two highest scores and Yuna's two lowest scores and guess who wins?

It's true that sotnikova's scores were nearly unanimously great! You are talking about a situation in which not two people are corrupt but 10 if you include the technical panel! Everyone had to be in on it!! So as long as there's no proof of any wrongdoing the fact is that you have fans of the loser so upset they just make stuff up!

There is a reason that major corporations, when holding contests, will not allow relatives of employees of said corporation to participate: conflict of interest.

What sport allows someone convicted of trying to fix its most important contest to judge again? In any other sport such a person would be banned for life. Ask Pete Rose, and all he did was bet on baseball games.

But again, you hold on to the fiction that everything is hunky dory while the audience stays away in droves. Like another poster said, there are more people at some high school hockey games than there are at the JUNIOR WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.

ISU has the rule of if a scores too high it doesn't count! Then you have to go to the idea that even If their score doesn't count that score influenced all the other judges to be in that corridor. But the Adelina scoring corridor was also extremely high in the sp too. So in fact more than 10 judges had to be involved of the fixing for sotnikova

Did Yuna wonder why her Vancouver LP scores were 16 points higher than anything she has ever gotten previously? Adelina's jump landings on 6 of the passes were better than she normally does, particularly the flow out, the control and the landing position. Often she will land bent over or have problems controlling the landing edge. She also will sometimes miss levels on elements and here she didn't.

Good point

Sotnikova also knows how many times she messed up on flips so she knows what she did in sochi was amazing

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Sotnikova also knows how many times she messed up on flips so she knows what she did in sochi was amazing

Super amazing actually. The crowd lifted her on those jumps, even Sandra commented how they were 6 inches higher.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

@skatedreamer @Weakankles

Does it strike anyone as odd that the standards are so low in professional sports! I mean...if you were to receive a felony even a local school district has higher standards for its bus drivers and a hospital in relation to nurses and janitors. Not that I want convicted felons in these fields so I to them. The thing is the NFL for example is one of the largest corporations in America and acts as a representation of American culture in many ways. The fact that we not only shower convicted felons with money and even hold them up as examples for our children is sickening to me. Hockey is the only sport outside of FS I follow and while I feel they both have infinitely higher standards I still find myself quite often.

 

[Mathman]

Alla Shekhovtsova was alleged to have conspired in the 2002 SLC scandal with a Russian mobster but it was never proven.

Here's the latest on this character (January 26, 2014).

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/russi...ccused-olympic-judge-bribes/story?id=22233093

 

[capcomeback]

A lot of things are "alleged" in skating.

That's why I used the word "alleged" instead of "guilty". Just because she is "innocent until proven guilty", doesn't mean she didn't do it. We may never know for sure. Still, if this turns out to be a pattern of behavior, it will likely happen again and she might not be so lucky next time.

 

[WeakAnkles]

It's true that sotnikova's scores were nearly unanimously great! You are talking about a situation in which not two people are corrupt but 10 if you include the technical panel! Everyone had to be in on it!! So as long as there's no proof of any wrongdoing the fact is that you have fans of the loser so upset they just make stuff up!



ISU has the rule of if a scores too high it doesn't count! Then you have to go to the idea that even If their score doesn't count that score influenced all the other judges to be in that corridor. But the Adelina scoring corridor was also extremely high in the sp too. So in fact more than 10 judges had to be involved of the fixing for sotnikova



Good point

Sotnikova also knows how many times she messed up on flips so she knows what she did in sochi was amazing

You have an astounding ability to miss the point. But hey, I guess if the person/team you want to win does, then anything goes huh?

Does it strike anyone as odd that the standards are so low in professional sports! I mean...if you were to receive a felony even a local school district has higher standards for its bus drivers and a hospital in relation to nurses and janitors. Not that I want convicted felons in these fields so I to them. The thing is the NFL for example is one of the largest corporations in America and acts as a representation of American culture in many ways. The fact that we not only shower convicted felons with money and even hold them up as examples for our children is sickening to me. Hockey is the only sport outside of FS I follow and while I feel they both have infinitely higher standards I still find myself quite often.

Sorry if I screwed that up. I've never multiquoted yet. Yes, though I don't find it odd; I find it depressing. It's all about the money, of course. Not odd, understandable, but no less depressing.

 

[capcomeback]

It's true that sotnikova's scores were nearly unanimously great! You are talking about a situation in which not two people are corrupt but 10 if you include the technical panel! Everyone had to be in on it!! So as long as there's no proof of any wrongdoing the fact is that you have fans of the loser so upset they just make stuff up!



ISU has the rule of if a scores too high it doesn't count! Then you have to go to the idea that even If their score doesn't count that score influenced all the other judges to be in that corridor. But the Adelina scoring corridor was also extremely high in the sp too. So in fact more than 10 judges had to be involved of the fixing for sotnikova



Good point

Sotnikova also knows how many times she messed up on flips so she knows what she did in sochi was amazing

Technically, the jump in question was the lutz.

Not everyone scored Adelina GOE 3s. More than half of them came from two judges (for a total of eighteen out of thirty-three "3s" from those judges). Therefore, the same two judges only gave her a total of six GOEs (out of a possible twenty-four) below "3" (only two that were less than "2" between them). Kind of dicey (Alla and Yuri?).

 

[skatedreamer]

@skatedreamer @Weakankles

Does it strike anyone as odd that the standards are so low in professional sports! I mean...if you were to receive a felony even a local school district has higher standards for its bus drivers and a hospital in relation to nurses and janitors. Not that I want convicted felons in these fields so I to them. The thing is the NFL for example is one of the largest corporations in America and acts as a representation of American culture in many ways. The fact that we not only shower convicted felons with money and even hold them up as examples for our children is sickening to me. Hockey is the only sport outside of FS I follow and while I feel they both have infinitely higher standards I still find myself quite often.

:agree: !!!!!!!!!!!!

Very well said and totally agree re: role models for kids. Hockey makes me crazy b/c there often seems to be more fighting going on than actual playing but that's a separate issue.

In terms of judging, it occurred to me that diving (possibly my favorite Summer Olympics event) is somewhat analogous to FS in the sense that it is also a judged sport. Unlike FS or gymnastics, though, diving seems to have relatively few judging issues -- at least not to the extent we've seen them in FS & gymnastics and certainly nothing like the Sochi mess. Wonder why? :scratch:

 

[WeakAnkles]

@skatedreamer @Weakankles

Does it strike anyone as odd that the standards are so low in professional sports! I mean...if you were to receive a felony even a local school district has higher standards for its bus drivers and a hospital in relation to nurses and janitors. Not that I want convicted felons in these fields so I to them. The thing is the NFL for example is one of the largest corporations in America and acts as a representation of American culture in many ways. The fact that we not only shower convicted felons with money and even hold them up as examples for our children is sickening to me. Hockey is the only sport outside of FS I follow and while I feel they both have infinitely higher standards I still find myself quite often.

:agree: !!!!!!!!!!!!

Very well said and totally agree re: role models for kids. Hockey makes me crazy b/c there often seems to be more fighting going on than actual playing but that's a separate issue.

In terms of judging, it occurred to me that diving (possibly my favorite Summer Olympics event) is somewhat analogous to FS in the sense that it is also a judged sport. Unlike FS or gymnastics, though, diving seems to have relatively few judging issues -- at least not to the extent we've seen them in FS & gymnastics and certainly nothing like the Sochi mess. Wonder why? :scratch:

Money.

 

[skatedreamer]

Money.

I see your point -- haven't seen any divers on Wheaties boxes lately. (slaps forehead...)

 

[Alba]

Alla Shekhovtsova was alleged to have conspired in the 2002 SLC scandal with a Russian mobster but it was never proven. Skeptics believed that she backed out at the last minute (she was the judge that was believed to have "traded votes" with the French Pairs Judge, who had been coerced).

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2002/0...have-contacted-six-skating-judges-police-say/
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/top-skating-officials-deny-wrongdoing/244375.html

Granted, these allegations were never proven, but when situations like Sochi happen, it makes you think long and hard that it might have been true.

I honestly can't imagine Alla, or any other russian judge, to vot for another couple when they have a russian fighting for the gold.
I can't speak for Baranova, but a russian surname hardly make her guilty. To accuse her for that I think it's very low.
Beverly Smith speaks well about her : "Olga Baranova, the assistant technical specialist from Finland, is by all accounts, quite good at her job".
Judges like Balkov should never judge again. They are so many judges, it's not like they are short.

They say that since Alla Shekhovtseva is married to the Russian federation president Valentin Piseev it's a conflict of interests, therefore she shouldn't been there. I might agree with that, but someone please explain me then, why Samuel Auxier (First Vice President of the USFSA), Karen Butcher (Director of Skate Canada’s Board of Directors), and many others should judge?

 

[pangtongfan]

:agree: !!!!!!!!!!!!

Very well said and totally agree re: role models for kids. Hockey makes me crazy b/c there often seems to be more fighting going on than actual playing but that's a separate issue.

In terms of judging, it occurred to me that diving (possibly my favorite Summer Olympics event) is somewhat analogous to FS in the sense that it is also a judged sport. Unlike FS or gymnastics, though, diving seems to have relatively few judging issues -- at least not to the extent we've seen them in FS & gymnastics and certainly nothing like the Sochi mess. Wonder why? :scratch:

Diving is by far the best judged sport. From best to worst of the judged sports I would say:

1. Diving







2. Artistic gymnstics
3. Sychronized swimming






4. Figure Skating
5. Rythmic gymnastics (yes there is a sport that is even worse, believe it or not, albeit barely)

 

[Icey]

Where are the good hackers when you need them?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Diving is by far the best judged sport. From best to worst of the judged sports I would say:

1. Diving







2. Artistic gymnstics
3. Sychronized swimming






4. Figure Skating
5. Rythmic gymnastics (yes there is a sport that is even worse, believe it or not, albeit barely)

The spacing creates a very dramatic effect:agree:

 

[capcomeback]

I honestly can't imagine Alla, or any other russian judge, to vot for another couple when they have a russian fighting for the gold.
I can't speak for Baranova, but a russian surname hardly make her guilty. To accuse her for that I think it's very low.
Beverly Smith speaks well about her : "Olga Baranova, the assistant technical specialist from Finland, is by all accounts, quite good at her job".
Judges like Balkov should never judge again. They are so many judges, it's not like they are short.

They say that since Alla Shekhovtseva is married to the Russian federation president Valentin Piseev it's a conflict of interests, therefore she shouldn't been there. I might agree with that, but someone please explain me then, why Samuel Auxier (First Vice President of the USFSA), Karen Butcher (Director of Skate Canada’s Board of Directors), and many others should judge?

The US Government thought she had conspired on the basis of wire taps of the guy they indicted who said that the "Russian Ice Dancing judge" (who was Alla) was involved. As it turned out, Alla Shekhovtseva supported the Russians (who eventually lost to the French anyway), but why would the mob guy get recorded implicating Alla?

I agree that no current officer (or spouse or immediate family) of a national governing body should judge at international events.

Edit: Why would Alla "vot for another couple when they have a Russian fighting for the gold?" Maybe because the French were actually better, lol. Isn't that the whole point of judging? The irony is that if she had been involved in plotting the conspiracy, it is possible that she supported her own country to avoid having suspicion placed on her for the being part of the conspiracy (knowing the French would win anyway). Again, there is no proof other than a recorded statement from a criminal, so that has to be taken into consideration. It should also be noted that the criminal in question fled to Moscow and Russia has refused to extradite him to the US for trial.

 

[Mathman]

The US Government thought she had conspired on the basis of wire taps of the guy they indicted who said that the "Russian Ice Dancing judge" (who was Alla) was involved. As it turned out, Alla Shekhovtseva supported the Russians (who eventually lost to the French anyway), but why would the mob guy get recorded implicating Alla?

As I recall the incident, this was in a phone call to Marina Anissina's mother, right? At the time it seemed like "The Taiwanese" (Alimzhan Tokhtakhounov) was just a small-time hood trying to cut himself in on the action and did not have any actual contacts or influence with anyone. (He had been accused in the past of minor drug dealing and, interestingly, of "conspiring to fix beauty pageants." ) IIRC the US wanted to catch him for other things (hence the wiretap), and saw the Olympic judging controversy as a way to put pressure on Italian authorities to hand him over. Instead, he sneaked off to Russia and nothing more came of it.