The Politics of Figure Skating

[slutskayafan21]

About the conspiracy to give Irina inflated PCS at Cup of China, I just looked up the judging panel.

Aha! Here are the nations that were in cahoots:

USA
Bulgaria
Great Britain
Russia
China
Uzbekistan
Canada
Czech republic
Japan
Estonia

I never did trust those Estonians.

MM

Their cross country skiiers in SLC certainly garnered alot of suspiscion. :scratch: Thankfully they did not become the Johann Muelegg of the games.

In any case I think the key thing to look at is the consistency of the scores from judge to judge on the PCS. If they are fairly consistent, they are probably fair. If the U.S judge gave a score very close to the Russian judge that is the ideal.

 

[Mathman]

If the U.S judge gave a score very close to the Russian judge that is the ideal.

Unfortunately, with secret judging that's the one thing we can't find out.

I think the ISU is making a huge public relations mistake by not identifying the marks judge by judge, although I understand Cinquanta's position.

With secret judging you give the appeance of having something to hide even if you don't.

MM

 

[slutskayafan21]

Unfortunately, with secret judging that's the one thing we can't find out.

I think the ISU is making a huge public relations mistake by not identifying the marks judge by judge, although I understand Cinquanta's position.

With secret judging you give the appeance of having something to hide even if you don't.

MM

Yeah but if all the scores are within 0.2 per component, then we will know they couldnt be too far apart.

I agree the judges identities should be identifiable to the public though.

 

[Doggygirl]

About the conspiracy to give Irina inflated PCS at Cup of China, I just looked up the judging panel.

Aha! Here are the nations that were in cahoots:

USA
Bulgaria
Great Britain
Russia
China
Uzbekistan
Canada
Czech republic
Japan
Estonia

I never did trust those Estonians.

MM

MM, it was an Estospiracy. All the while you were looking at that judges score, it was really the Uzbekistan judge that was up to no good. It's been the Uzbekispiracy all along. I like you, so I wanted to let you know about that before the Olys.

DG

 

[nymkfan51]

Doggygirl ... I think it's a bit unfair that you suggest most everyone's questions about Irina's scores are just reactions from paranoid Kwan fans.
You want specifics and I use last year's SP at Worlds as a great example because Irina did not skate her best. I just rewatched all the SP's from Moscow yesterday and I saw absolutely no more choreography in Irina's SP than in MK's or Sasha's. And ... no matter if Irina's spins were a higher level of difficulty ... clearly she botched the last one ... in addition to screwing up her jump combo. So maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand how she got higher PCS in every single category than Michelle.

And I know I have never said Irina won a competition that she didn't deserve ... I just think the scores they are giving her are too high. Like I said earlier, maybe if Sasha skates a spectacular SP in Paris, we will see how the judges place her PCS in comparison to Irina.

And as for MK ... I personally think are chances of winning gold in Torino are slimmer than slim ... completely unrelated to Irina. Even if Irina were to have a disastrous time in Torino, I don't expect Michelle would be next in line for the gold. At this point I am just hoping for her to skate beautifully and end up on the podium.

 

[bdreampixie]

And I know I have never said Irina won a competition that she didn't deserve ... I just think the scores they are giving her are too high. Like I said earlier, maybe if Sasha skates a spectacular SP in Paris, we will see how the judges place her PCS in comparison to Irina.

I don't think you can compare scores from one comp. to another. It seemed to me like the scores at CoC were overall higher, than say Sk. Am. So if Sasha gets lower scores at TEB, it means she got lower scores at TEB and nothing else.

Plus, Sasha's PCS are just as inflated as Irina's. Skating skills, anyone?

 

[slutskayafan21]

Often people focus on the wrong people just for the storyline. Even though the French judge Marie-Reine Le Gougne was focused on almost exclusively in the pairs scandal of 2002, how can one compare her to the Russian judge Alla Shekhovtseva who was on that same panel, one of the most powerful and manipulative-minded judges in the sport today, far more than the sad emotionaly muddled Le Gougne, but far too clever to leak anything dirty. Yet the North American press build this great story that the powerful corrupt Le Gougne somehow mastermined this whole thing, she is barely a minnow compared to somebody like Shekhovtseva who I gaurantee had alot more say in this whole thing than Mrs. Le Gougne.

 

[Mathman]

Since judges at every competition seem to be giving Irina high scores, and no one seems to be disputing her wins, what the heck is the fuss all about? Could it be a fear that MK won't get those scores? How in the heck would MK (or her fans) even KNOW where MK is in terms of judges opinions?

I think what has us Michelle fans down in the dumps is that the New Judging System does not seem to have a mechanism for rewarding the best qualities in Michelle's skating, but it does provide ample opportunity to pile points on her chief rivals.

Dispite the famous language discussed on the other thread, the language about radiant energy that transports the audience to Nirvana, etc., etc., there just does not seem to be a category in the CoP for "Kwanliness."

Well, figure skating without Kwanliness is Orange juice wthout the big O. (And if you don't know what range juice is, think road apples.) No, I mean a day without a sunshine.

And Kwan without Kwanliness is just 4.0 points for a triple toe and 1.3 points for a level 2 layback. Others can top it, pointwise, but phooey on that.

MM

 

[slutskayafan21]

I think what has us Michelle fans down in the dumps is that the New Judging System does not seem to have a mechanism for rewarding the best qualities in Michelle's skating, but it does provide ample opportunity to pile points on her chief rivals.

Dispite the famous language discussed on the other thread, the language about radiant energy that transports the audience to Nirvana, etc., etc., there just does not seem to be a category in the CoP for "Kwanliness."

Well, figure skating without Kwanliness is Orange juice wthout the big O. (And if you don't know what range juice is, think road apples.) No, I mean a day without a sunshine.

And Kwan without Kwanliness is just 4.0 points for a triple toe and 1.3 points for a level 2 layback. Others can top it, pointwise, but phooey on that.

MM

You need to send a letter to Cinquanta, you are killing figure skating dude by killing the Kwanliness!!!!

 

[attyfan]

You need to send a letter to Cinquanta, you are killing figure skating dude by killing the Kwanliness!!!!

IMO, if in fact the "magic", "connection with the audience" or other words properly summed up in the concept of "Kwanliness" is not recognized in the NJS, then Cinquanta will soon know that he is killing his money maker -- the audience will turn to pro events, where they have a shot at getting what they want to see!

 

[slutskayafan21]

Pro events? Pro events are dead. Pro tours are even diminishing to what they were 10 years ago.

 

[havanamesa1]

The claim that there are all these conspiracy theories on this board is as ridiculous as the claim that the complaints are all coming from Kwan fans. When it's too obvious that Irina's scores are being inflated, to make a big fuss about it is legitimate regardless if you're a Kwan, Cohen, or even a Slutskaya fan, because it's CHEATING and it's WRONG, plain and simple. And it doesn't help the sport in any way, especially after the SLC scandal, and particularly in this environment in which there is supposedly a big lack of support for figure skating, to the point that the USFSA has to make Marshalls a reality show and to punish Michelle et al. for supposedly causing the major drop in revenue and ratings for ISU shows. (How pathetic!)

If the COP truly was established to prevent any more scandals resulting from cheating, and since it's apparent that the mission isn't being accomplished, I say go ahead and MAKE A BIG FUSS!

 

[Mathman]

Pro events? Pro events are dead. Pro tours are even diminishing to what they were 10 years ago.

Yes, but 10 years ago pro skating was in it's heyday. There were lots of events and even some competitions that were not too absurd, such as the World Pro.

If Michelle, Irina and others of that generation all retire from ISU competition after this season, I think Attyfan is right that there will be many fresh opportunities. Give the audience what it wants.

MM

 

[attyfan]

Pro events? Pro events are dead. Pro tours are even diminishing to what they were 10 years ago.

The same is true for Oly eligible events. The only difference is that pro events may well be able to capitalize on mistakes made by the ISU.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

And the posters who believe that Irina is not held up in the PCS continue to call out conspiracies at those that opine her scores are much too high. Wake up you are throwing out the conspiracy phrase to win a battle of the forum. There is no conspiracy theory except for what you bring up, and there is no bloc judging.

There is cultural bias but you won't touch that, will you?

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If Michelle, Irina and others of that generation all retire from ISU competition after this season, I think Attyfan is right that there will be many fresh opportunities. Give the audience what it wants.

More Nascar, definitely. That seems to be slowing up too.

 

[MKbeauty]

re. PCS

Alot of the Kwaniacs are sensing that Michelle's chances to beat Irina at the Olympic Games might be pretty bleak at this point with the way Irina is skating, the scores she is receiving, and questionability of how Kwan can stack up against Irina under the new COP considering some of the factors currently against her-current injury, not skating GP season last year to get early start on getting familiar, showing at Worlds, etc.....Thus the best way to relieve the frusteration is to complain about Irina's PCS scores........

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I've read MANY posts questionning Irina's PCS scores on various Board so it's not just some crazed "kwaniacs."

Personally, I think the real issue has to do with the "corridor" of acceptable deviation points which the ISU established. Any judge who's scores are not "in-line" with the rest of the panel is subject to an assessment. So in essence, some skaters are being judged based on how they have performed in past events - i.e., skater X usually gets X for PCS - so, just slightly lower or higher the scores for the next competition. And I'm not singling out Irina - I've noticed this pattern with other skaters as well (the men's competition at Skate Canada comes to mind). And IMO, this is why the judges scores all look so similar.

While I can appreciate the ISU trying to discourage some judges from abusing the PCS marks, it's also unfair - skaters shouldn't be judged based on past performances but how they perform during each competition.

 

[Kuchana]

From my own perspective, I think it would be naive for people to not believe that conspiracies or biased judging if you would call it does not exist in skating.

And I really don't get the fuss with the accusations about the fuss coming ONLY from Kwan fans. I find this insulting because of how even people who aren't fans of Michelle have acknowledged that Irina's scores have fluctuated in comparison to other skaters. To dismiss their views based on a misconception that all the talk is coming from Kwan fans hinders the discussion in debating about the politics of skating in general. I would be voicing my same concerns if Michelle was treated the same. So it's not only a Kwan issue but one that affects skating itself.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think what has us Michelle fans down in the dumps is that the New Judging System does not seem to have a mechanism for rewarding the best qualities in Michelle's skating, but it does provide ample opportunity to pile points on her chief rivals.

Sounds to me like there's been a conspiracy

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

From my own perspective, I think it would be naive for people to not believe that conspiracies or biased judging if you would call it does not exist in skating.
.

Agree, and they are not interchangeable. One is planned attack by two or more participants to throw a competition. We know of one proven; we also know of tapping,and so many more written in books. Those are conspiracies.

The Cultural Bias is more innate in that it comes from the soul of the person in power to give credit to people of his own ilk. This form is more obvious when scoring is open. There is no conspiracy here; it is just human nature.

Joe