The Returning Skaters for the Olympics

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
I think any of those 10 you listed, and who did not come up to expectations in the 2006 Olys, and Worlds of Gothenborg or los Angeles, will come out fighting mad. That's what a returning priizefighter would do if he wants another crack at the title.

 

[losrorien]

It depends on the skater and how realistic the viewpoints taken are.

Sasha was never a champion even in her prime so nobody reasonable is expecting her to be a champion vs a tougher field making a comeback now. In her case she isnt enough of a legend to diminish herself. I think most of expecting her to either miss the team or finish 5th-7th at the Olympics if she does make it so I dont see how she could dissapoint others. If she expects a medal let alone the gold she is likely to end up dissapointing herself though.

Shen/Zhou have never done better than bronze at the Olympics and legends because of their caliber of skating, World titles, and other titles. So it would be hard to diminish themselves in their comeback. The pairs field is so weak they will probably win atleast bronze if they are in half decent shot, have a good shot of silver, and even have an outside shot of gold if they come back stronger than expected given their ages and the Germans still have consistency problems. Either way they will probably be on the podium and they are well into their 30s now. I think them diminishing themselves in their comeback is nearly impossible if they make it.

If Kwan came back she probably would end up diminishing herself since unlike Sasha she has a huge legacy to live up to, and her chances if she did return now would be even less than Sasha. However she wont come back I dont believe as she is too smart to not realize all of this.

Lambiel could easily diminish himself to some extent if he isnt jumping alot better than he has for awhile. Then again the mens field is so weak and open if he is jumping well he can easily gain the elusive gold so it depends what kind of shape he is and how hard he is working.

Plushenko could diminish himself to some degree if he flops since he has such a history of dominance and isnt that old. For his own sake hopefully he is in good shape as well.

I agree about Shen/Zhao. They never won OGM but they are already legendary team, so I hardly believe they will diminish themselves whatever the result.

For me, the same for Plushenko. He's acheived almost all that one skater could dream of - OGM, 4 world titles, several european titles, etc. - so if he couldn't even reach podium in Vancouver, I don't believe he'd hurt his fame, although his eventual failure would be noised for a while in media, but then again, it's more likely to be about the victory of any skater over Plushenko, the KING. The same goes for Kwan.

In Lambiel's case, I somewhat agree. It seems quite different with Plushenko's case. Stephane has already two world titles and one olympic silver medal, but he is not in the same league as Plushenko in terms of "legend". While he returns after short-time retirement, he is rather considered "one of the male skaters in the field" like Joubert, Lysacek, Weir, Takahashi and others. So if he would perfom badly in Olympics like last year's worlds, he could diminish himself to some extent same as his rivals do, at least in a short term. I really hope this would NOT happen again.

I'm not sure about Sasha. It depends on what expectations her fans (including not fans of her) have for her return. I suppose if she performs well in both programs, no matter what placement, it would be satisfying for many people.

But again, in the long run, these fantastic skaters would, I think, be remembered by their memorable perfomances rather than by their failure in the history of figure skating. Personally, I am really happy I'd have another chance to see all theses skaters in the same competition, especially such a big event like the Olympics.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I agree with some skaters as being LEGENDARY, but I think the term requires a definition to which 85% of fandom agrees to what makes a legend?

I believe Sonia Henie is legendary based on her contributions to the Sport.

I believe the Protopovs are a legenday team based on what they brought to Pairs Skating.

I believe Lori Nichol is legendary for her creativity in choreographing competitive programs.

I believe John Curry is legendary for bringing forth musical interpretations of competitive skating.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Pish posh on the whole diminishing their legendary status nonsense... by definition, a legend is a legend BECAUSE they transcend that which they are famous for... Also, despite popular opinion - ANY of these skaters could win the Olympics... Fields are deep but more like a mile wide and an inch deep. But whatever...

As for Kwan... Please. If she comes back, it becomes the Michelle Kwan show regardless of her placement. People love to just watch her skate and the truth of the matter is what's good for Kwan is good for US skating.

Now, Sasha... that will be interesting to see. If she reads this thread, she just might win. Since hers is a mental issue, not a talent issue - she might just get over herself and let her body do its job.

I heart the Olympics and its unexpected nature... I look to Worlds for defining who is the best year by year and the Olympics for who is destined to win. And that's what makes them special...

 

[R.D.]

The Olympics have recently been a very interesting competition for skating. You think you know who's going to win, and it seems so obvious until the night arrives.

If recent events continue their trend, it does not look good for Yuna Kim.

As for Kwan... Please. If she comes back, it becomes the Michelle Kwan show regardless of her placement.

At US Nationals? Certainly. Internationally? Not so much.

Now, Sasha... that will be interesting to see. If she reads this thread, she just might win. Since hers is a mental issue, not a talent issue - she might just get over herself and let her body do its job.

I take it that any kind of a clean LP performance from her would be satisfying to both her and her fans.

 

[attyfan]

...

Quote:
As for Kwan... Please. If she comes back, it becomes the Michelle Kwan show regardless of her placement.

At US Nationals? Certainly. Internationally? Not so much.
...

IMO, an event becoming the "Michelle Kwan show" (If she is present) depends on the nationality of the broadcaster, not the event.

Kwan, I believe, does have one advantage over the other "comeback skaters" in that she has a reason for coming back other than the dream of the OGM. I would think she would wabt to try to change the the terms on which she leaves the sport from the tearful injury victim who withdrew in '06 to a strong healthy competitive skater in '10.

 

[delobelfan30]

The men's field is weak? Are you serious? There are at least ten guys who could medal, and not be default. Lambiel, Joubert, Takahashi, Plushenko, Oda, Verner, Abbott, Lysacek, Weir, Oda, Chan, Kozuka - some of them may have consistency issues, they have different strengths and styles, but not one of them is a weak skater. The men's field is shaping up to be the strongest and deepest of all the disciplines next season.

Yes I think the mens field is weak now. A skater like Lysacek becoming World Champion is not sign of a strong field, sorry. Lysacek's performances to win this years Worlds would have probably put him only 6th at say the 2004 Worlds, or only 5th at say the 2002 Olympics and even 2001 and 2002 Worlds. There are many events in history a skater without a quad, without remarkable jump quality, and without top notch artistry or overall skating skills, wouldnt even be on the podium even skating perfectly. The last Worlds he would have won with the same performances would probably be 1992 or 1993 maybe. A skater like Joubert last season was skating with zero artistry, horrible programs, weak spins and footwork, and his jumping which used to be his greatest strength was way off and making alot of mistakes on. Last years Worlds he had trouble landing his quads and triple axels cleanly and even fell on a freaking double axel. The scary thing is even with his all limitations of his current skating he would have won Worlds had he one or two less of all his mistakes.

Ever since 2004 the field has increasingly and gradually weakened with injuries, the inconsistency of some talented skaters, the underachieving of some talented skaters, retirements and not enough newer stars filling their shoes, and it is left at what it is.

The field is deep in a certain way in that there are alot of very good skaters, but no great ones in their primes. It is like a bunch of skaters that other years would be fighting for places 3rd to 6th and there are about 10 to 12 of them which makes a very deep and unpredictable field but not neccessarily a strong one as far as championship quality.

 

[delobelfan30]

Now, Sasha... that will be interesting to see. If she reads this thread, she just might win. Since hers is a mental issue, not a talent issue - she might just get over herself and let her body do its job.[/QUOTE}

Sasha in her prime of 2003-2006 had a chance to win many of the big events skating cleanly. Not a lock as some of her fanatics liked to make it out to be as she had Kwan, Slutskaya, and Arakawa all to compete with and at nearly every big event 1 or 2 of those 3 skated virtually cleanly too, and she isnt head and shoulders above those three even at her hypothetical best contrary to what many of her fanatics claim. However she did have some chance of winning at the big events back then skating cleanly, but she just never pulled it off.

Now it completely different though. Her jumping ability is not even close to strong enough to hang in with skaters like Kim, Asada, or even Ando and Rochette even if she were to land all her jumps, unless they bomb. When you combine their triple-triples and difficult jump sequences, the new E for flutzing which Sasha is sure to get hit with each time she does a lutz even landed, and her much lower GOE even on clean jumps she will be way behind those four in jumping points alone even with a clean skate unless they miss alot of their jumps. Kim, Asada, and even Rochette are much too strong themselves in non jumping elements for her to make up the difference either.

Also one thing Sasha had going for her in 2003-2006 was a huge reputation. She was touted as a heir apparent to the big titles, as one of the favorites, sometimes even the favorite to win big events despite that she pretty much never did. On PCS reputation plays a huge role, when you are seen as right at the top of the totem poll they look for your strengths and overlook any weaknesses that might exist. Now having been retired nearly 4 years, still having never won a World or Olympic title in her career despite all the hype, and THREE different women who have won World titles this quadrennial alone, two who are already much bigger names outside of the U.S than she ever was, and two others who have recently matched her best ever World or Olympic finish (silver) she would not return to a favored frontrunner status. Thus instead of just looking for things to build her up on PCS, the judges would also instead look more closely at things they can be more critical of, such as her shallow edges, lack of ice coverage, and overall poor basic skating skills (compared to her main rivals), and her sometimes bare choreography.

 

[R.D.]

IMO, an event becoming the "Michelle Kwan show" (If she is present) depends on the nationality of the broadcaster, not the event.

I was referring to her impact on the event, in terms of ticket sales, fan enthusiasm, etc.

In relevant order: US Nationals, an international event taking place in the US, and then an international event taking place abroad.

On that topic, I bet NBC is just waiting to pounce on the news of Cohen coming back. Ugh, I don't look forward to their incessant hype...

Kwan, I believe, does have one advantage over the other "comeback skaters" in that she has a reason for coming back other than the dream of the OGM. I would think she would wabt to try to change the the terms on which she leaves the sport from the tearful injury victim who withdrew in '06 to a strong healthy competitive skater in '10.

Yeah, but Kwan ISN'T coming back. (as of now, anyway)

 

[chuckm]

So if Kwan isn't coming back, who gets the Ladies TBD at Skate America? Please tell me it isn't another "comebacker", Emily Hughes.

 

[R.D.]

[W]ho gets the Ladies TBD at Skate America? Please tell me it isn't another "comebacker", Emily Hughes.

I wouldn't mind seeing her again

 

[chuckm]

But why would Emily deserve that SA spot over ladies who have competed at Nationals the past two years, had good international results, and have already done one or more summer preps? Alexe Gilles and Becky Bereswill have just one GP event each, they both medaled in the JGPF, and they both have competed already this summer with good results. Seems to me these ladies are more deserving of the SA spot than Emily.

 

[R.D.]

But why would Emily deserve that SA spot over ladies who have competed at Nationals the past two years, had good international results, and have already done one or more summer preps? Alexe Gilles and Becky Bereswill have just one GP event each, they both medaled in the JGPF, and they both have competed already this summer with good results. Seems to me these ladies are more deserving of the SA spot than Emily.

I'm not saying that Emily deserves the spot, just that I wouldn't raise a stink if she did get it.

There's also a flip side to this- Emily Hughes is a MUCH more recognizable name overall than either Gilles or Bereswill, and one must keep in mind that this is a televised event, and the more big names available for promotion, the more eyeballs that can be drawn. I mean, I don't even really know who those two are- all I know is that Becky's a fellow Houstonian

Anyway, in the big scheme of things, it's probably only fair to give the spot to any of the American ladies who currently have only one GP event and do well in it (assuming they can be ready on short notice).

 

[jennylovskt]

Yes I think the mens field is weak now. A skater like Lysacek becoming World Champion is not sign of a strong field,...

I think the word "weak" is largely measured by the technical abilities - jumps, spins, and footworks. A tiny portion of the idea of "weak" is related to artistic abilities. one of the most important tech abilities is the quad jumps. Without quad, it does seem to be weak. That is why I have said in another thread that the last two year world championship produced sad results. Without the come back forces, only Joubert is relatively consistent in the quad jumps. The next can be considered a quad skater is Verner. But he is not reliable so far. Many skaters could manage a quad or two from time to time, but the quad did not do much good for them because it either failed in the attempt or if it was successful, it drew too much energy from them and messed the rest of their programs up.

However, the quad bunch, Plushenko, Lambiel, and Takahashi are coming back. The younger generations are a year more mature and are chasing their dreams too. The up coming season will be packed with high technical skills and high level jumps.

On the artistic side, Lambiel's artistry is more and more polished, and near the top. Plushenko would go all the way out to bring the fire on ice (at least I believe so). Takahashi was a natural artistic skater. Joubert might finally put on his A level artistry. The only skater in about top 15 who is a bit weak on artistic abilities is Lysacek. But he has his strength, consistency, and determination.

Such field can hardly be called "weak". No, the coming season is strong for men. So strong that I couldn't even figure out who will be the strongest competitor. I just love it!

 

[delobelfan30]

I think the word "weak" is largely measured by the technical abilities - jumps, spins, and footworks. A tiny portion of the idea of "weak" is related to artistic abilities. one of the most important tech abilities is the quad jumps. Without quad, it does seem to be weak. That is why I have said in another thread that the last two year world championship produced sad results. Without the come back forces, only Joubert is relatively consistent in the quad jumps. The next can be considered a quad skater is Verner. But he is not reliable so far. Many skaters could manage a quad or two from time to time, but the quad did not do much good for them because it either failed in the attempt or if it was successful, it drew too much energy from them and messed the rest of their programs up.

However, the quad bunch, Plushenko, Lambiel, and Takahashi are coming back. The younger generations are a year more mature and are chasing their dreams too. The up coming season will be packed with high technical skills and high level jumps.

On the artistic side, Lambiel's artistry is more and more polished, and near the top. Plushenko would go all the way out to bring the fire on ice (at least I believe so). Takahashi was a natural artistic skater. Joubert might finally put on his A level artistry. The only skater in about top 15 who is a bit weak on artistic abilities is Lysacek. But he has his strength, consistency, and determination.

Such field can hardly be called "weak". No, the coming season is strong for men. So strong that I couldn't even figure out who will be the strongest competitor. I just love it!

So your hopes of a "strong" field are based largely on skaters who were not even around at all last season- Plushenko, Lambiel, Takahashi, and who are making "comebacks" that we have no idea how will pan out for any of them. Pinning th hopes of a return to a strong field so much on such a hypothetical which had nothing to do with last seasons field, and is purely conjecture to panning out at all this season is not exactly reason for optimism.

Also you even concede Lysacek is "a bit weak on artistic abilities". The guy also didnt do any quad in either program in winning last years Worlds though, he rarely hits one in the first place, has a dicey triple axel, and far from the best quality jumps you will see either. Yet this guy is World Champion last year. Need I say anymore. "strength, consistency, and determination" as your only real assets should not be enough to make a World Champion if it were any kind of decent field with any sort of strong and reliable leaders.

 

[jennylovskt]

So your hopes of a "strong" field are based largely on skaters who were not even around at all last season- Plushenko, Lambiel, Takahashi, and who are making "comebacks" that we have no idea how will pan out for any of them. Pinning th hopes of a return to a strong field so much on such a hypothetical which had nothing to do with last seasons field, and is purely conjecture to panning out at all this season is not exactly reason for optimism.

Also you even concede Lysacek is "a bit weak on artistic abilities". The guy also didnt do any quad in either program in winning last years Worlds though, he rarely hits one in the first place, has a dicey triple axel, and far from the best quality jumps you will see either. Yet this guy is World Champion last year. Need I say anymore. "strength, consistency, and determination" as your only real assets should not be enough to make a World Champion if it were any kind of decent field with any sort of strong and reliable leaders.

Your analysis was based on the history from last year (which I agree it was weak.) and last year alone while the geographic distribution of the men's field of next year will change dramatically. It will shape a can't-be-ignored, totally different field. So different that every skater will have to, and I believe they will, change their strategies on how to approach next year's competition differently, such as adding a quad in their programs. Also, the current skaters are more mature after another year. Generally speaking, especially the up comiing generation skaters, what they couldn't do last year, they might be able to do it this year. It is an Olympic season. If they don't put on their A game, what are they waiting for? How can your assessment be accurate if you disregard all those changes?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It is a stink if Emily were to get the spot, and I have nothing against her personally. But Alexi and Becky are part of the next wave, and should have two GPs to encourage their progress. Emily will do her usual 'stop the music. and take a long straight entry into her toe jumps' She will not or maybe she can not do transitions into jumps. Also she has a history of URs. Nothing special about the rest of her skating, imo. She has her work cut out for her at Eastern Sectionals. If she shows marked improvements, then she deserves a crack at the US Nationals. Who knows? she might make the Oly Team. I think she may just be a sweeheart for some fans, but that is not enough to win championships.

Meanwhile let us build up our stock pile of talented skaters and allow Alexei or Becky to nab that TBD at SA.

 

[R.D.]

One thing that we can all agree on, I'm sure, is that Em has a lot of work to do to become competitive with America's best once again. I like her show skating but was not at all impressed with her one showing last year. In a way she fell just as far down as Kimmie- may as well have taken the year off for college (where her focus was, and should have been).

Curious to see what happens this year with her- hopefully she'll actually be able to compete at Nats this time.

 

[snowflake]

Yes I think the mens field is weak now. A skater like Lysacek becoming World Champion is not sign of a strong field, sorry. Lysacek's performances to win this years Worlds would have probably put him only 6th at say the 2004 Worlds, or only 5th at say the 2002 Olympics and even 2001 and 2002 Worlds. There are many events in history a skater without a quad, without remarkable jump quality, and without top notch artistry or overall skating skills, wouldnt even be on the podium even skating perfectly. The last Worlds he would have won with the same performances would probably be 1992 or 1993 maybe. A skater like Joubert last season was skating with zero artistry, horrible programs, weak spins and footwork, and his jumping which used to be his greatest strength was way off and making alot of mistakes on. Last years Worlds he had trouble landing his quads and triple axels cleanly and even fell on a freaking double axel. The scary thing is even with his all limitations of his current skating he would have won Worlds had he one or two less of all his mistakes.

Ever since 2004 the field has increasingly and gradually weakened with injuries, the inconsistency of some talented skaters, the underachieving of some talented skaters, retirements and not enough newer stars filling their shoes, and it is left at what it is.

The field is deep in a certain way in that there are alot of very good skaters, but no great ones in their primes. It is like a bunch of skaters that other years would be fighting for places 3rd to 6th and there are about 10 to 12 of them which makes a very deep and unpredictable field but not neccessarily a strong one as far as championship quality.

Oh this post is very negative :disagree: I am glad I watch theese great guys with my own naive(?) eyes. To me the men competing in olympics are strong and really exciting, not weak. And IMO comparing skates from 6.0 with skates from COP is not possible.

The men's field is weak? Are you serious? There are at least ten guys who could medal, and not be default. Lambiel, Joubert, Takahashi, Plushenko, Oda, Verner, Abbott, Lysacek, Weir, Oda, Chan, Kozuka - some of them may have consistency issues, they have different strengths and styles, but not one of them is a weak skater. The men's field is shaping up to be the strongest and deepest of all the disciplines next season.

:agree: and D. Ten, Berntsson, Brezina, Javiez, Voronov, Lutai and others in this discipline will glue me to the telly :

I am not a deep analyser of FS, but I know what I like and admire what these men are doing well with my COP-eyes.

 

[Nadine]

I have to confess that the first person I think of when I look at this thread is Elvis Stojko. If anybody defines mental toughness, perseverance, longevity, the true heart of a warrior/gladiator/champion/dog soldier/et al, it is he! Competed in 4 Olympics (finishing 6th, 2nd, 2nd, 8th), while injured no less.for the latter two. In fact, if it had been up to me he would have been a 2-time Olympic Gold Medalist. But, alas, I'm just a mere mortal.

Elvis is the one that set the Quad Standard, it is because of him that we had such great skates from Kulik, Yagudin, and Plushenko. I often wonder if Elvis had been born in Russia if things would have turned out differently. But fate is fate, and so it is written.

My other favorite, Evgeni, reminds me of Elvis so much. My hope is that he can continue where Elvis left off, do what Elvis was unable to do, become a 2-time Olympic Gold Medalist! Follow in the footsteps of legendary skaters Dick Button & Gillis Grafstrom - the former is the only man to have won 2 Olympic Gold Medals & the latter is the only man in history to have won 3 Olympic Gold Medals - also Evgeni would be only the second man in history to have won more than 2 Olympic Medals. I will be cheering him on all the way to make the impossible possible!:thumbsup:

I love it when records are broken - it's historical - aka Michael Phelps breaking Mark Spitz's record last summer was one for the ages!!!!!!!!! I can still feel the goosebumps, to have lived to see that, wow.

Needless to say, such historical moments are rare and far in between (e.g. Katarina Witt still holds the record of being only the second woman in history to have won 2 Olympic Gold Medals; Sonja Henie holding the record at 3; it took 52 years for that feat to happen).

Once again, I take my hat off to all these remarkable Titans of this sport I love so much.