The Tutberidze Effect

[el henry]

And those posts were again response to another posts. I find it interresting that when somebody posts a thread about what makes Tutberidze's team successful, comments appear not about "here is why I agree/disagree with the conclusions in the first comment" but about "here is why I don't care yet I have to write why I write (only) critical posts about her even when I don't care"

Side note: Most of us probably got it already that you don't care/follow even when from the number and length of your posts someone could get different (and of course completely wrong) impression that in fact you care and follow.

I’ve already explained, multiple times, why I took the time to write the post.

You are correct, someone forming an impression of what I do or do not care about from number of words, rather than actually reading my words well, that would make my morning smile

Peace to you three (I think it’s three)eace:

 

[Grin]

I think people talk about "Eteri methods" and "don't care about ladies" at the same time because they are tired of Russian ladies dominance both on junior and senior levels

 

[el henry]

I think people talk about "Eteri methods" and "don't care about ladies" at the same time because they are tired of Russian ladies dominance both on junior and senior levels

When you say “people”, are you referring to my post? That would not be true for me, for the reasons I’ve already delineated.

I’ve never cared about the ladies the way I care about the men, and I have five years of posting habits to “prove” that

I don’t know about “people”

 

[Vandevska]

I think many of the posts were a bit off topic here, but I will give one too
I also just wanted to also point out that it's misleading to just call it Eteri methods. Very recently I read the interview with Davidov (Tarusina's coach, i can't for the life of me remember if thaf was his name - Sergey Davidov) and he also said that they're looking for obedient children who won't question what he asks of them. Even though it sounds like too much, it's essentially having trust in your coach, and it's actually very important. You can't work with someone if you don't trust them. A few skaters have said this too.

Obviously they have a well oiled machinery, but the answer to "why?" perhaps can't be answered yet. It's also a complex answer, including many variables.
That it's progressive, there shouldn't be any doubt. So far they were able to foresee the future and prepare their athletes for what's to come even before it did. One example: they were aware of the backloading rule change and had their kids instead learn quads.
As a side note, i don't know how could someone believe that the backloading rule change was going to affect this team drastically. I mean, if you can do all of your jumps in the second half, there's not too much to lose if you spread them a bit.

 

[mathlike]

Well, according to the developmental psychology 15yo is intellectually (cognitively) formed person, for sure.
Emotional (sexual) and social develpoment could last a year or two longer of cognitive development, and generally development is (for some) a never-ending process (it ends when life ends), but in a developmental sense you can't say 16yo is a child. The difference between 16yo and 30yo is mostly only in a life expirience and in that sense you can claim that 30yo are not mature (life-expirienced) eather if you compare them with 50yo. topic:

Firstly, it certainly depends on which developmental psychologist you read. Considering at least half of human science academic staff is now political activists/ideologists rather than actual scientists, I'd be very cautious when reading anything written in last 40 years.
Secondly, I quoted and replied to "formatted", which is different than "formed". The fact, human brain is fully developed as biological organ, does not mean it's formatted aka prepared to fully recognize the reality, based on which a person makes life decisions. Imho, at 15yo it lacks knowledge, experience and emotional stability to do that.
Thirdly, I'm pretty sure most of parents and coaches don't know much about things I wrote in previous post either. Do you think they taught Tutberidze at MGAFK about influence of quadruple jumps on premature bodies in the 1990s? AFAIK, Dudakov hadn't even studied physical culture. Of course, the Orsers and Carrolls of the world don't know either, they've been all gambling as well - it's just Tutberidze is gambling harder, on much younger and girls' bodies.
Parents know even less than that, as they're not professionals and mostly not former athletes either.

It's one big experiment on adolescent human beings, so beautiful to watch. Well, at least most of the time.

 

[mathlike]

However you are mixing things up here. I think Orlov did not mean that 15 year olds are responsible adults, who should be able to make their own life decisions, but spoke about 15 year old's maturity as a performer, and that some 15 year olds can perform without any less maturity compared to 20-23 year old skaters, which is indeed possible.

If so, then I completely agree. 12yo Gubanova had better maturity in her movement than most senior skaters ever.

 

[nussnacker]

Of course, the Orsers and Carrolls of the world don't know either, they've been all gambling as well - it's just Tutberidze is gambling harder, on much younger and girls' bodies.

Ahem... quote:
10 year old Stephen Gogolev does it again, landing a quadruple salchow!
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=895534253842304&id=111389425590128

brianorser
4 lutz... Not bad for 11 years old! #stephen Gogolev
https://www.instagram.com/p/BI6B2gOgIYd/

Stephen is the first Canadian skater to land a quad Lutz in competition, the youngest skater to land three different quad jumps in a competition

 

[mathlike]

Ahem... quote:
10 year old Stephen Gogolev does it again, landing a quadruple salchow!

Wow, pretty impressive.

 

[beachmouse]

USSR set the standard in gymnastics for many decades, their gymnasts getting younger and younger until 14 year olds became senior World Champions.
Romania under Ceaucescu rule was the only nation that successfully countered, but their 'Rombot' gymnasts were always criticised for their cookie cutter gymnastics, perfectly cloned and often when the team score counted, top of the medal rostrum. Communist China had its bouts of success, but never really pulled through.

China however is the reason why there's a minimum age to compete internationally in diving. They were sending 12 year olds to win World Championships in diving and even the generally ostrich-like FINA stepped back and said 'if they're winning world title in platform at that age, then they're starting athletes on a 10 meter tower at a point in child development that's really bad for both short and long term muscular and skeletal health'

Diving's kind of an odd duck in that while it's very much an artistic judged sport, there really isn't much room for an athlete to interpret, say, a back 2 1/2 in pike position and you don't get the discussions on maturity and artistic presentation that you get in figure skating, and to a small degree artistic gymnastics.

 

[Edwin]

The sample period necessary for quantification hasn't been large enough to study some mid-range and longer term effects.

There have been quite some athletes released due to natural attrition, i.e. injury, financial reasons perhaps and other family related matters.
If one rules out loss of motivation an athlete can remain under the influence of the Tutberidze effect as long as the competition results warrant it.
So far, the gender distribution in the various age ranges give little conclusion about the actual longevity of an athlete under the Tutberidze Effect.

In relation to the ongoing discussion about the 'self' plus intellectual and emotional maturity of children, adolescents and young adults one needs honest and objective answers why some top names left at the upper end of the age range, while others stayed.

AFAIK in the young adults, we only have Moris Kvitashvili, who can be considered a sort of pet project, AKA lab rat #1 ;-)
in the almost grown up adolescents we have Elisabet Tursynbayeva, sponsored in a conscious choice by her parents to remain under the influence of the Tutberidze Effect with good results and to be considered at the peak of her career;
and we have Alina Zagitova, who is the best example so far of a sportsperson tremendously improved under the Tutberidze Effect, had excellent results and is currently at the peak of her powers.

Why did these athletes stay and other athletes leave while still or not even in their prime yet?
When one rules out reasons listed under natural attrition, could it be they rejected the Tutberidze Effect by some part of their psyche? These can be completely valid personal reasons like motivation, wish to have a new outlook, etc.?
Would consciously choosing to stay under the influence of the Tutberidze effect have objectively benefited their actual competition results?

All of this comes probably down to psychology, both on part of the trainers and on part of the athletes, as mentioned by some other posters.
And since humans are always learning, even without knowing, it would be interesting to study this aspect of the Tutberidze Effect by observation, to gather indirect evidence, since direct vocal or written evidence is often distorted by emotion.

It will keep us occupied and feed our discussions

 

[nussnacker]

Wow, pretty impressive.

Is it?
I'm surprised this hardcore gambling on 10 year olds body didn't make anyone worry for the bones and knees of this little boy at the time, how come?
Brian was pretty proud that little 12 year old Stephen managed to outjump skaters 4 year senior to him at jr.nationals!
https://www.instagram.com/p/BPdV8FIguhl/
Oh yeah, and check out that technique - the full-blade assist and prerotation :hpull:

But the times have changed since then, and now it's an issue, mmmmmkay...
Brian had 15-16 year old Elizabet doing quads too, and the girl was also very injured when she left Brian (but like with Anna, we don't really care if she was injured doing quads or not, does it matter if we want to blame someone?).

Indeed, It's one big experiment on adolescent human beings, so beautiful to watch. Well, at least most of the time.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Firstly, it certainly depends on which developmental psychologist you read. Considering at least half of human science academic staff is now political activists/ideologists rather than actual scientists, I'd be very cautious when reading anything written in last 40 years.
Secondly, I quoted and replied to "formatted", which is different than "formed". The fact, human brain is fully developed as biological organ, does not mean it's formatted aka prepared to fully recognize the reality, based on which a person makes life decisions. Imho, at 15yo it lacks knowledge, experience and emotional stability to do that.
[/URL]

Actually, i needed to read all of them And i was using Piaget who was saying that last stadium in cognitive development is getting formed from 11 till 16 age. However, there are some researches which are claiming that 1/2 college students fail at some formal operation tasks and 1/3 of adults never develop it completely. But the point is - when you pass 16 years, age is not a thing which makes someone better formatted, nor intelectually nor emotionally. All biological phases of human development are finished till 16 years of age. The only difference is in quantity of informations more mature people can posses. But quality is the same. If 16yo is in contact with important information, he/she posses the ability to process it in a 'right' way. To claim that 16yo is not formatted enough to live/think/emote 'as adults' in an outside world (just because is 16yo and not 26yo) is simply not right from a scientific point of view.

 

[Edwin]

Except she's none of the above, just main coach in "Khrustalniy" rink, but without any administration power over other coaches, only with training process leadership to some extent.
It's cool to get your facts straight before writing an essay on the matter.

Sorry about not responding to this earlier. I am sure EG is no burocratic pencil pusher, neither control freak nor workaholic but is rather a dedicated perfectionist with great sense of purpose. She takes greatest pleasure in directly working with her staff and the skaters. But as the person in charge over the sporting part of Khrustalniy, with this perfectionist mentality, she'll want everything under her control to be 100% in order before setting her signature under a declaration, child's dossier or report prepared by her staff.
Any good manager wants an oversight and full knowledge of what is going on is his department, have his facility clean, orderly and in full working order, etc.
She will not hesitate to reprimand the Zamboni driver if he fails to do his rounds properly, because this puts her athletes in danger, but will not concern herself over loose bolts on the thing. But when she finds a broken bolt on the ice .... he is in for a verbal lashing, and with good reason, for the Zamboni is his duty and responsibility.
And doing the less than pleasant things any person in a position of similar authority -sort of headmaster like- has to do, i.e. correcting unruly students, dealing with parents when you're about to dismiss a student, Plus probating/hiring/evaluating/releasing your members of staff, etc. just like any business' director.

Given that all skaters marvel over EG's work ethics and the way she applies herself to the job, she is indeed remarkable.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[mathlike]

All biological phases of human development are finished till 16 years of age. The only difference is in quantity of informations more mature people can posses.

Well, that's quite a difference when you make life-influencing decisions, don't you think?

Did Einstein, Leonardo da Vinci, Archimedes, Plato and other geniuses sensibly planned their lives at 15yo? I doubt it.

 

[andromache]

Is it?
I'm surprised this hardcore gambling on 10 year olds body didn't make anyone worry for the bones and knees of this little boy at the time, how come?
Brian was pretty proud that little 12 year old Stephen managed to outjump skaters 4 year senior to him at jr.nationals!
https://www.instagram.com/p/BPdV8FIguhl/
Oh yeah, and check out that technique - the full-blade assist and prerotation :hpull:

But the times have changed since then, and now it's an issue, mmmmmkay...
Brian had 15-16 year old Elizabet doing quads too, and the girl was also very injured when she left Brian (but like with Anna, we don't really care if she was injured doing quads or not, does it matter if we want to blame someone?).

Indeed, It's one big experiment on adolescent human beings, so beautiful to watch. Well, at least most of the time.

IIRC, there was a thread here on GS created about Gogolev's 4Lz at ten years old, and it was extremely contentious. I would estimate that over 50% of the posts expressed upset/concern/worry/anger that such a young child was doing quads. So I'm not really sure where you're getting this idea from.

 

[andromache]

Well, according to the developmental psychology 15yo is intellectually (cognitively) formed person, for sure. Emotional (sexual) and social develpoment could last a year or two longer of cognitive development, and generally development is (for some) a never-ending process (it ends when life ends), but in a developmental sense you can't say 16yo is a child. The difference between 16yo and 30yo is mostly only in a life expirience and in that sense you can claim that 30yo are not mature (life-expirienced) eather if you compare them with 50yo. topic:

This is totally inaccurate.

I'm not sure about developmental psychology, but studies of the actual human brain make it pretty clear that humans are not mentally matured until around age 25.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=141164708

So the changes that happen between 18 and 25 are a continuation of the process that starts around puberty, and 18 year olds are about halfway through that process. Their prefrontal cortex is not yet fully developed. That's the part of the brain that helps you to inhibit impulses and to plan and organize your behavior to reach a goal.

And the other part of the brain that is different in adolescence is that the brain's reward system becomes highly active right around the time of puberty and then gradually goes back to an adult level, which it reaches around age 25 and that makes adolescents and young adults more interested in entering uncertain situations to seek out and try to find whether there might be a possibility of gaining something from those situations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892678/

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051

This doesn't really have anything to do with skating (and I certainly would not suggest that the age minimum in any sport be 25 ). I just need to correct the information here regarding mental development and young people. topic:

 

[Alex65]

Well, that's quite a difference when you make life-influencing decisions, don't you think?

Did Einstein, Leonardo da Vinci, Archimedes, Plato and other geniuses sensibly planned their lives at 15yo? I doubt it.

I don’t know about the rest. As for Einstein - for the rest of his life he was looking for answers to questions that arose at the age of 16-17. His biographies are numerous and easy to find on the Internet.

 

[flanker]

23yo claiming from "their own experience" that 15yo is emotionally and intellectually formatted person is interesting.

Dear friend, unless you're seriously ill, health-care worker or a soldier, you ain't seen, felt, experienced ANYTHING yet, believe me. You don't know what it's like to get up every day just to spend another day in pain in your back, stomach or legs due to overtraining as a child. You don't know how it's to not be able to use a bathroom by yourself due to coaching mistake. You don't know how it's to live with screws in your spine, legs, arms in need of daily massages, anti-inflammatory drugs or medical assistance placed inside your body due to overtraining or injuries in youth.
Do you think, at 20yo, Elena Mukhina was intellectually and emotionally prepared for how her life was going to change?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvScuvCexAQ

Do you really think 15yo kid is?

I say that most things people say about or how they imagine "emotionaly and intellectualy formatted person" after 20/30 is delusion. I'm 40 now and I can say resposibly say that there is very small shift between 15 and 30, what you didn't get till 15 you won't get later (discipline, feelings, compassion, ability to understand and communicate own inner world). There are some experiences that people think they would change you, in fact they only make you what you already are. Definitely from the perspective we are talking about here there is very little difference, many of those 15 y. o. girls are better interpreters of feelings and "souls" than some of those who are 20+, who didn't have it in them before and never would have it later.

It's like with parenting. Who can't be good parent in 20/25 will never be good parent in 30/35.

Seriously I don't know a skater who wasn't good in the skills we were talking about somewhere between 15-20 and then miraculously became one.

This is not underestimating of experience, as I've said above, they make you what you really are but apart from some very drastic things they won't make you a different person.

 

[mathlike]

Is it?
I'm surprised this hardcore gambling on 10 year olds body didn't make anyone worry for the bones and knees of this little boy at the time, how come?
Brian was pretty proud that little 12 year old Stephen managed to outjump skaters 4 year senior to him at jr.nationals!
https://www.instagram.com/p/BPdV8FIguhl/
Oh yeah, and check out that technique - the full-blade assist and prerotation :hpull:

But the times have changed since then, and now it's an issue, mmmmmkay...
Brian had 15-16 year old Elizabet doing quads too, and the girl was also very injured when she left Brian (but like with Anna, we don't really care if she was injured doing quads or not, does it matter if we want to blame someone?).

I don't want to blame anybody, on the contrary, I'm trying to show how we all take part in this experiment: kids, parents, coaches and finally - us, viewers.

We are like those spectators in ancient Rome's Collosseum watching gladiators fighting for their lives, smelling blood and screaming with excitement "SDIELALA!".
After a while 'normal' fights become boring, so they're adding tigers and lions (3axels and quads), to make the show even more spectacular. In the end we applaud and worship the strongest and fittest (medalists) and await another event, getting new arms (even harder quads) and gradually forgetting the losers (few likes and emojis will do).

 

[dante]

I'm rather concerned not about the conditions in Eteri team, but about a possible cargo cult if some younger coaches decide to repeat her success by blindly copying her perceived methods (especially foreigners who mostly learn about Eteri from her critics).

I can say resposibly say that there is very small shift between 15 and 30

Personally, I experience a mental and emotional "reformatting" once a few years, the latest one was at the age of 30, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't the last one.

Did Einstein, Leonardo da Vinci, Archimedes, Plato and other geniuses sensibly planned their lives at 15yo?

No. Should we raise the age restricion to 40 years then?