Wagner's terminology

[ice coverage]

Ashley said twice on the "Today" show this morning that , IIRC, she had three clean skates. So, in general, do skaters consider it a clean skate even if they have URs, Downgrades, and edge calls?

Interesting question. As a longtime fan since 1976, when I was a wee slip of a girl lol, with decades of 6.0 thinking before COP, I personally would agree that "clean" informally referred to standing up on everything. But usage was probably always a little blurry -- if you popped a jump or missed an element, but didn't fall, was it clean? I doubt usage was uniform. And now, though, with COP, I personally don't think it's clean if it has << or e, but I still believe the usage is blurry. What do you do with < ?

Not referring to Ashley's statements or performances in particular, BTW, just generalities as a fan.

Very interested in others' thoughts.

IIRC, on the Today show, Wagner was asked for general reflections on her Olympic experience -- and in that context, her usage does not bother me.

I recall that a good-natured Max Aaron discussed the blurry usage in a self-deprecating way during an interview early this season (maybe the TSL interview).

I forget how exactly the topic came up, but he said (I'm paraphrasing) that he had a little wake-up call when he was new to Colorado Springs.

After skating a run-through without falling, he would cheerfully remark to his friends/training mates Ryan Bradley and/or Rachael Flatt, "I was clean." But sometimes they would laugh, and reply, "No, you weren't. You two-footed one jump, and you popped another one," etc., etc. So Max would go to his coaches and ask, "Was I clean?" And they would say, "No."

For Max [ETA, who obviously is immersed in elite skating], "clean" now means skating every element correctly. [ETA: My hunch is that Max would have NO problem with what Wagner said to the Today show -- with the general public as its primary audience, although some skating diehards happen to watch as well.]

 

[ManyCairns]

my only wish is for once Wagner just keep quiet
is that too much to ask

golden -- cool story about Max.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think Ashley was saying her performance was "clean" in the sense that she didn't make any major visible errors. It's very rare that a skater is actually "clean" in every sense of the term. Asada, for example, can be said to have "skated clean" even with URs on two jumps.

If people want to nitpick, to that I say... who cares.

 

[noskates]

I would hardly consider Ashley the voice of US figure skating! Ashley's program was clean only in the sense she didn't fall on her butt! Semantics.

 

[bsfan]

I think Ashley was saying her performance was "clean" in the sense that she didn't make any major visible errors. It's very rare that a skater is actually "clean" in every sense of the term. Asada, for example, can be said to have "skated clean" even with URs on two jumps.

If people want to nitpick, to that I say... who cares.

If one just said she was clean as she did an satisfying job, that's one thing. If she said it so she deserved more points than some one fell, that's misleading on purpos.

 

[usethis2]

Most of them probably consider falls and visible step-outs as blemishes.

 

[ice coverage]

Wagner should stop this line. There is just no way she could and/or should have placed higher than she is right now.

Wagner said no such thing on the Today show, AFAIK.

Has Wagner ever said that she should place higher in Sochi than she did? When/where did she say so?

 

[Mrs. P]

Wagner said no such thing on the Today show, AFAIK.

Has Wagner ever said that she should place higher in Sochi than she did? When/where did she say so?

This article is probably where people were trying to infer that Ashley said that:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ashley...ing--gypped--by-olympic-judges-205146099.html

However, she ended up behind Lipnitskaia, who fell in each of her programs; Mao Asada, who fell heavily during a disastrous short program; and fourth-place Gracie Gold, the fellow American who tumbled to the ice on Thursday.

Wagner appeared to take particular exception to Lipnitskaia's scores and claimed the judging controversy would damage figure skating's popularity.

"People don't want to watch a sport where you see people fall down and somehow score above someone who goes clean," she said. "It is confusing and we need to make it clear for you.

The part about where she should have placed higher, is NOT a direct quote the author just simply states that she ended up below skaters who fell. The part where SHE is directly quoted is more generic, i.e. that people are confused by the difference between a "clean" program and one with a fall. Her point is that falls aren't punished enough --which, doesn't people already debate about here? You can disagree, of course, but it's not worth racking Ashley over the coals for something that many people (including several posters on GS) are thinking about.

She never says. "I should have placed above XYZ skater..."

Again the placement thing is an INFERENCE of what Ashley actually said. Not a direct quote.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

Wagner is one big whiner , her time is up anyways
honest, I have never seen a skater who hogs to the media so much and seek so much attention
does she have adhd

wow.

 

[CarneAsada]

I think Ashley was saying her performance was "clean" in the sense that she didn't make any major visible errors. It's very rare that a skater is actually "clean" in every sense of the term. Asada, for example, can be said to have "skated clean" even with URs on two jumps.

If people want to nitpick, to that I say... who cares.

But Wagner's botched 3-3 was clearly visible in the FS. Besides, we all acknowledge that at least one if not both of Asada's UR calls were bogus, and she had zero two-footing or step outs there. Anyway, Wagner did her job. She came here and did a Miki Ando Vancouver skate where she played the sexy woman and was OK but utterly forgettable, getting a somewhat respectable placement but nothing more. I think that's the best she could've hoped to do, so kudos to her.

 

[ice coverage]

This article is probably where people were trying to infer that people were saying that:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ashley...ing--gypped--by-olympic-judges-205146099.html



The part about where she should have placed higher, is NOT a direct quote the author just simply states that she ended up above skaters who fell. The part where SHE is directly quoted is more generic, i.e. that people are confused by the difference between a "clean" program and one with a fall. Her point is that falls aren't punished enough --which, doesn't people already debate with here? You can disagree, of course, but it's not worth racking Ashley over the coals for something that many people (including several posters on GS) are thinking about.

She never says. "I should have placed above XYZ skater..."

Again the placement thing is an INFERENCE of what Ashley actually said. Not a direct quote.

Thank you, Mrs. P. Appreciate the full picture.

 

[Raatkirani]

I'm don't like the persona that Ashley's created for herself. She wants to come across as a fiery, tough-as-nails athlete, but she toes the line for being a little crass, brash and unfiltered. She thinks of herself as being a better skater than she really is. I'm not saying that women skaters should be prissy ice princesses, but there is an element of refinement that goes part and parcel with this career. Women like Mao, Yuna, Carolina, Michelle all have that beautiful combination of fierce athleticism and grace that makes skating so appealing. Ahsley has a tendency to speak first and think later and it sometimes gets her in trouble and makes her look a tad desperate.

 

[Matilda]

Geez, why don't you ask the parents of their kids who have it?

I agree that it's over diagnosed...but that's not said that there are valid cases.

Also is it really necessary to spend another thread attacking Ashley....it has nothing to do with the question at hand.

Thank you. I agree with all of the above 100%.

 

[desertskates]

ADHD is a serious problem, and I don't appreciate you taking it so lightly so you can insult someone.

I'm going to quote this for this reason. I have ADHD as an adult and am treated for it. Skyfly's comment made me upset because s/he throws it out without understanding. Attention seeking is not part of the equation. Since this in not a medical forum, I'll leave it at that. Mods, if I've overstepped, please delete the comment.
I love Ashley's skating and do wish she would tone it down. But Worlds are coming! Anything can happen there, and maybe we can enjoy some great skating and see correct placements. Ahhh, to hope and dream

 

[Juliasochi]

Wagner should stop this line. There is just no way she could and/or should have placed higher than she is right now.

Higher than Gumby at least.

 

[ice coverage]

I'm going to quote this for this reason. I have ADHD as an adult and am treated for it. Skyfly's comment made me upset because s/he throws it out without understanding. Attention seeking is not part of the equation. Since this in not a medical forum, I'll leave it at that. Mods, if I've overstepped, please delete the comment. ...

Respect to you for sharing, desertskates . I hope the treatment is effective for you -- but even if so, it is wrong for others to refer to the condition lightly.
Don't blame you one bit for feeling upset over sky_fly's comment. S/he seems to chatter about a lot of stuff without understanding, IMHO. This example is one of the more disturbing ones.

ETA:

Silver lining: I am relieved to see above that sky_fly later acknowledged that her/his use of ADHD was inappropriate -- after Mrs. P and CSG explained what it really is. Thank goodness. The next step is for us to get sky_fly to be more careful about what s/he posts before hitting the Submit button. :yes:​

 

[desertskates]

Respect to you for sharing, desertskates . I hope the treatment is effective for you -- but even if so, it is wrong for others to refer to the condition lightly.
Don't blame you one bit for feeling upset over sky_fly's comment. S/he seems to chatter about a lot of stuff without understanding, IMHO. This example is on one of the more disturbing ones.

Thank you for you kindness I enjoy a normal and happy day every day with good treatment. I was deeply insulted by the one remark, but I love the lively discussion here.
And worlds is coming!! We have so much to look forward to with that, and we can ignore what we don't want to hear or see or whatever? Anyways, I'll look forward to the exhibitions for now

 

[ice coverage]

Thank you for you kindness I enjoy a normal and happy day every day with good treatment. I was deeply insulted by the one remark, but I love the lively discussion here.
And worlds is coming!! We have so much to look forward to with that, and we can ignore what we don't want to hear or see or whatever? Anyways, I'll look forward to the exhibitions for now

I admire your positive spirit, desertskates. Thx for all your posts on all topics, and I will be keeping an eye out for many more to come.

I'm kind of sad that the Olympics almost are over, but I too am getting excited about Worlds.

 

[desertskates]

Thanks again golden I look forward to your posts as well!
As they say, this one's on the books. Worlds this year, and the next few years will be fascinating. I'm so glad Mao will be at Worlds, and, wait.... I think I might smell a US medal in Ladies. But we'll see that's what makes this sport so wonderful and fascinating. Now, Ashley (I love your skating and fire), please quiet down a bit and put it on the ice in Japan!!

 

[slider11]

Dear Ashley, Do yourself and the rest of the country a favor. Be quiet. Your comments are out of sync and unappreciated. Kind of like your skating. Sorry, but this is very harsh. But somehow you're not getting the message. Someone in your situation (given a gift to be at the Olympics) should be pleasant and reserved and show their stuff through their skating. You were mediocre at the team event. The individual was better but you're lucky with 7th place. I did not find Samson and Delilah engaging. I saw that you landed some jumps (with some under rotations) and I saw you flail your arms about alot. Ok. But no where near the top 5. Now you've become an authority on judging and how other people skated. Leave that to the experts. I wish the USFSA would appoint Mirai to Worlds. Sponsors are probably cringing and reading the fine print in your contracts. Really. I'm not feeling your skating and not seeing you as a proper representative of figure skating. Kudos to Gracie and Polina. Hang on, ladies, I think this show is coming to an end. Next year USFSA will lose the pity-vote.