Well-Balanced Choreography

[ImaginaryPogue]

I agree to all of the above examples of combining the technical with the beauty of the sport. Since I am very interested in choreography, I really believe that this is important for our sport - but new ISU rules such as making the spiral sequence not a compulsory element have made programs so technical - where the step sequences are just so jam-packed with so many turns in every direction, it sort of loses the meaning behind the program - is it to gain points or telling a story... any thoughts?

Hi, Sara!

Well, everything has to be done to gain points. The question is whether gaining points necessarily has to be done at the expense of artistic expression. And the answer to that, IMO, is absolutely not.

I have expressed my dislike for CoP step sequences more than once (I call it the Zamboni step sequence due to the excessive ice coverage). But I think it is still possible to use the steps to tell a story, or at least to express the music. For instance: Javier Fernandez disguising the upper body movement needed for level 3/4 with drunken pirate choreo (not v. sophisticated, but effective). I think Dai has been able to use step sequences to express the concept, work with the music, and pack in the content in several of his programs, with La Strada being a good example (I just rewatched it the other day and it's fab). In dance, there are definitely teams who manage to combine the difficulty needed to get good levels with storytelling/successful musical interpretation. IP mentioned F/S's programs, and I agree that The Immigrants is awesome and that they are a good example of using the elements in the service of the story. Pairs footwork, at least to me, doesn't look as busy as singles footwork, but OTOH, I can't think of any particularly memorable step sequence.

To answer your question - I think it goes back to what skating should be at its best: a combination of both athleticism and artistry. But it's not easy to get the balance right and to do both well.

Welcome, Sara!

As someone who loves COP, I've always found the consternation about the COP step sequence to be somewhat odd. I don't have much basis for comparison, unfortunately, as I lack a strong knowledge of pre-COP skating, and the stuff people have shown me hasn't been all that impressive. I wonder if it's partially, at least, due to the fact that as a required element, those that don't have strong footwork skills are still asked to spend a lot of time on it. I admit, watching a Ryan Bradley or Kevin van der Perren do footwork is rather torturous. But if you take the maxim that greatness, by definition, is rare, is great footwork really hindered by being COP? I can think of a dozen sequences off the top of my head that I absolutely adore.

And to continue the contrairanism, I think the pairs footwork has actually been affected the most by COP.

 

[deedee1]

Sara D, hearty welcome from me, too!

Glad a lot of people recently decided to go out of 'lurkdom' (me included!) and join the discussions.
It is so nice to feel 'welcomed' by many of long-time members here; who certainly are die-hard figure skaitng fans, and also get 'encouraged' to post, isn't it (thanks again Olympia!)?

Unlike you unfortunately, I am no expert in this sport, nor any sports, no dancer/musician, but I love this beautiful sport.

I really look forward to hearing your valuable experiences, precious opinions and good suggestions from you who have engaged in and contributed to this sport for such a long time.

And as the same rookie-member, I would appreciate if you could help me out sometimes; when I am in trouble with these senior members who are very skilled in knowledges, theories, rules! and also in writings (English is my weak point ^) !

 

[Buttercup]

As someone who loves COP, I've always found the consternation about the COP step sequence to be somewhat odd. I don't have much basis for comparison, unfortunately, as I lack a strong knowledge of pre-COP skating, and the stuff people have shown me hasn't been all that impressive. I wonder if it's partially, at least, due to the fact that as a required element, those that don't have strong footwork skills are still asked to spend a lot of time on it. I admit, watching a Ryan Bradley or Kevin van der Perren do footwork is rather torturous. But if you take the maxim that greatness, by definition, is rare, is great footwork really hindered by being COP? I can think of a dozen sequences off the top of my head that I absolutely adore.

And to continue the contrairanism, I think the pairs footwork has actually been affected the most by COP.

Oh, it wasn't my intention to suggest who's been more or less affected by the IJS - just to say that pairs step sequences look less busy and cluttered to me. I'm thinking of something like The Blower's Daughter - they were not bobbing this way and that, and it was very pretty.

I'd rather watch Bradley do footwork than spin. He was sooooooo slooowwww when I saw him live. Haven't seen KvdP. But even fast skaters with good skills can end up doing paint by numbers steps, with a million twists and turns and a meandering pattern. Though my biggest issue with CoP footwork is the upper body movement.

 

[ivy]

When I rewatched Lyra Angelica from the link at the beginning of this thread I really noticed MK's footwork. It was so clear and unhurried and uncluttered, but still seemed hard and complex. It went with the music and she took the time to fully articulate every step and movement.

I think often CoP footwork, especially outside the top 6 or so, often appears cluttered and rushed, with the skaters trying to shoe horn in every possible step they can do and move their body as much as possible to make sure they get the level 4 they want.

I find Leonova's footwork, for instance, to fall into that cluttered and hurried category. But she sells it and gets positive GoE's I'm sure. Alissa's footwork in Vie en Rose stands out for me because she does take the time to skate every turn and edges.

 

[Bluebonnet]

A well-balanced program is often defined with required elements (e.g., the numbers of jumps, spins, and steps). We can also argue that a front-loaded or back-loaded program is not balanced, nor is a program with all tricks but nothing in between. But what are the features of a program with a perfect balance between techniques and artistry? I personally think the following programs are well-balanced:
1. Elena Berezhnaya & Anton Sikharulidze's Lady Caliph (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enegcJGB4NY).
2. Michelle kwan's East of Eden (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTO6104VEqc).
3. Jeffrey Buttle's Rachmaninov's Prelude in C Sharp Minor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSbTaxPgexA).
4. Alexei Yagudin’s Winter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEfR4dQ8wAw).
5. Sasha Cohen’s Sentimental Walts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1gJ5H3ubfA)
All of them have either pose-holding glides (e.g., spirals) to showcase the beautiful lines or simple acts/moves to create a mood. By simple, I mean “easy to the eye”—simple but profound. It is the well-balanced mixture of simplicity and complexity that gives rise to a sense of great artistry. That is my personal taste. What is yours?

What is "perfect balance"? 50% tech - 50% artistry? Or 70% tech - 30% artistry (like the scoring system)?

 

[Mathman]

...It was so clear and unhurried and uncluttered, but still seemed hard and complex. It went with the music and she took the time to fully articulate every step and movement.

I think often CoP footwork, especially outside the top 6 or so, often appears cluttered and rushed, with the skaters trying to shoe horn in every possible step they can do and move their body as much as possible to make sure they get the level 4 they want.

That is my impression, too. By trying to do everything at once skaters cannot fully commit to each step and movement.

I remember one year the ISU changed the language for levels in step sequences in a way that appeared to put more emphasis on "upper body movement." Sure enough, the next year all skaters looked like they were bobbing for apples.

The same thing happened when they first listed a Beilmann position as something you get points for in a spiral sequence. After seeing what that wrought, they toned down the Bielmann reference the next year.

 

[ivy]

That is my impression, too. By trying to do everything at once skaters cannot fully commit to each step and movement.

I remember one year the ISU changed the language for levels in step sequences in a way that appeared to put more emphasis on "upper body movement." Sure enough, the next year all skaters looked like they were bobbing for apples.

The same thing happened when they first listed a Beilmann position as something you get points for in a spiral sequence. After seeing what that wrought, they toned down the Bielmann reference the next year.

Glad I'm not the only one!


lol re Bielmann - while you were writing that I was starting a new thread about Bielmann spins - though I spelled it with two Ls. Wish I had Denise on speed dial

 

[mskater93]

IP - the consternation over the leveled steps under IJS is that skaters aren't actually DOING a Sl, Ci, or Se step sequence, they are doing a zamboni step sequence (all over the ice) and not all skaters have good command over all the turns and steps they are trying to jam into the sequence. Also, with the requirement of "upper body movement" many skaters look like they are having a seizure to try and garner that feature. With the 1/2 the sequence on one foot feature this year, it looks like a lot of skaters are doing 800 power pulls half way down the ice and then jamming all their steps/rotations/turns in the other half of the ice. Also, EVERY step sequence CREEPS across the ice in comparison to the rest of the program and take up 45-75 seconds each and most of them have no relation to the music (it's just background noise). (gkelly, buttercup, et al, did I articulate all the issues?)

 

[Buttercup]

IP - the consternation over the leveled steps under IJS is that skaters aren't actually DOING a Sl, Ci, or Se step sequence, they are doing a zamboni step sequence (all over the ice) and not all skaters have good command over all the turns and steps they are trying to jam into the sequence. Also, with the requirement of "upper body movement" many skaters look like they are having a seizure to try and garner that feature. With the 1/2 the sequence on one foot feature this year, it looks like a lot of skaters are doing 800 power pulls half way down the ice and then jamming all their steps/rotations/turns in the other half of the ice. Also, EVERY step sequence CREEPS across the ice in comparison to the rest of the program and take up 45-75 seconds each and most of them have no relation to the music (it's just background noise). (gkelly, buttercup, et al, did I articulate all the issues?)

I think you did, though I don't believe the step sequences last that long; it's just that some skaters make it seem like they do. The blame lies not only with the ISU, but also with the judges; start giving -GOEs to skaters who can't properly execute a high-level step sequence, and maybe we'll see some changes.

I am very happy to see the Zamboni step sequence designation catching on

 

[Mathman]

lol re Bielmann - while you were writing that I was starting a new thread about Bielmann spins - though I spelled it with two Ls.

Well, I just Googled it. 102,000 references to Denise Biellmann and only 22,500 for Denise Beilmann, so two L's it is!

 

[mskater93]

I think you did, though I don't believe the step sequences last that long; it's just that some skaters make it seem like they do. The blame lies not only with the ISU, but also with the judges; start giving -GOEs to skaters who can't properly execute a high-level step sequence, and maybe we'll see some changes.

I am very happy to see the Zamboni step sequence designation catching on

I think someone timed Mao's L4 Olympic year step sequence at 71 seconds, so I wasn't exaggerating too much. I believe most L3 steps end up around 45-50 seconds with a stop watch. We've been calling it the seizure-induced zamboni step for a couple years now at my rink.

 

[Buttercup]

I think someone timed Mao's L4 Olympic year step sequence at 71 seconds, so I wasn't exaggerating too much. I believe most L3 steps end up around 45-50 seconds with a stop watch.

I don't think that's accurate.

Since I mentioned him upthread, I just took another look at Dai's La Strada from 2010 Worlds. The circular and straightline steps - both level 4 - clocked in at about 30 and 25 seconds, respectively. And they went with the music, so it is possible to pack in the content without boring the audience. The famously slow Kevin van der Perren took less than 30 seconds to complete his L3 straightline steps in the LP at 2011 SA.

I'm not sure what event Mao got a level 4 in the Olympic year, but it wasn't at the actual Olympics. Instead, I took a look at two level 4s from other ladies: Carolina Kostner's LP at the 2007 NHK Trophy, which had what I think was the first level 4 by a lady; I timed it at about 30 seconds. Rachael Flatt's level 4 sequence in the SP at 2011 Worlds also took about that long. Ms. Kostner's was the more attractive sequence, IMO.

 

[jaylee]

I'm not sure what event Mao got a level 4 in the Olympic year, but it wasn't at the actual Olympics. Instead, I took a look at two level 4s from other ladies: Carolina Kostner's LP at the 2007 NHK Trophy, which had what I think was the first level 4 by a lady; I timed it at about 30 seconds. Rachael Flatt's level 4 sequence in the SP at 2011 Worlds also took about that long. Ms. Kostner's was the more attractive sequence, IMO.

During the Olympic season, I believe Akiko Suzuki got a level 4 for her footwork at 2010 4CCs SP, and Carolina Kostner received it at 2010 Worlds SP.

Mao has gotten a level 4 for her footwork a few times this season (been a bit more common for all ladies this season), and I believe at the 2009 World Team Trophy event.

 

[ivy]

start giving -GOEs to skaters who can't properly execute a high-level step sequence, and maybe we'll see some changes.

I would love to see that - so much that seems mediocre end up with a +1

 

[Sara D]

I find the ISU website a little overwhelming, but I am not the intended user. I googled something like "value of spins in figure skating" a while ago and stumbled across a site called something like 'Go Figure Skating'. They had values for all the elements in a way that I found easy to follow and understand. It is not, however, up to date. For instance, they list men as able to do 2 leveled step sequences, but then can only do one leveled and one 'choreo' step sequence.

that is why I did not fully comprehend the information that was given by the ISU where they gave informatuion based on levels of difficulty and what you reward for good execution etc but didn`t give values of a certain elements - like spins for example. I will go to that site like you mentioned, but it would be nice for something up to date..

 

[Mathman]

Did you look at Communication 1611 at the following url? Starting on page 2 of Communication 1611 are the values of all technical elements in single and pairs skating for the 2011-1012 season. The base value for each element is in bold going down the center of the page. All the different spins are given on the bottom half of page 2, just below the jumps.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-185235-202457-nav-list,00.html

 

[gkelly]

The blame lies not only with the ISU, but also with the judges; start giving -GOEs to skaters who can't properly execute a high-level step sequence, and maybe we'll see some changes.

I would love to see that - so much that seems mediocre end up with a +1

This is a question I have. Skaters at different skill levels may attempt step sequences that earn the same features and same level. If they all succeed at executing it without outright mistakes, how should they score? Does 0 GOE mean satisfactory execution in relation to the each individual skater's level of skating skill, or in relation to some minimum standard of skating skill, e.g., 3.5 or 5.0 or elite?

ISU communication 1611 lists four kinds of -GOE for step sequences (and two more for rule violations in the short program): fall, less than half pattern doing steps and turns, stumble, and "poor quality of steps, turns, positions."

So if a mediocre or worse than mediocre skater does steps that meet the definition of the pattern, all the way through the pattern, with no falls or stumbles, how poor does the quality have to be to earn less than 0 GOE for completing the element?
Should judges penalize a juvenile skater for skating more slowly, with shallower and less steady edges than a senior, maybe with some visible wobbles and audible toe scratching? Or should those differences be reflected in the Skating Skills mark and everyone who executes the step sequence without major errors gets 0 GOE? Should the senior be penalized more than the juvenile for the same weaknesses because we expect better at senior level?

What about the positive GOEs? The same ISU communication lists the following bullet points for positive GOE in step sequences:
1) good energy and execution
2) good speed or acceleration during sequence
3) good clarity and precision
4) deep clean edges (including entry and exit of all turns)
5) good commitment and control of whole body to accuracy of steps
6) creativity and originality
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

I can easily imagine an artistically inclined skater with juvenile skating skill level and a good choreographer or artistically inclined coach doing well with 6) and 8). If the skater is over 15 and competing at junior or senior level with somewhat stronger skating skills, the technical quality might be mediocre by senior standards, but skater might execute the choreography well enough to earn those bullet points.

She might have good energy (half of bullet point 1)) and good commitment and maybe even control of the whole body (most of 5)) even if the execution and accuracy are just mediocre. So would that warrant +1? Does it depend what level she's competing at?

On the other hand, you might have a senior skater with pretty decent skating skills who meets bullets 3) and 4) because that's how well she skaters, but her energy and connection to the music are nothing special, and the steps show no originality. Could that warrant +1 on the basis of technique even though it's boring to watch?

Now, the skater who can show several technical strengths in the steps, or a couple of technical strengths and also some artistic strengths, might be worthy of +2 . . . or +3 with even more strengths. In those cases

But I think "mediocre" by definition means we should expect 0 GOE. For minuses, I think it needs to be worse than mediocre. Mediocre in the areas you value most but better than that in areas you don't care about but some judges value highly could reasonably lead to +1s.

I'd guess that 0 is probably the most common GOE for step sequences at most levels, because most skaters get it done without outright mistakes, but few reach the standard of "good" on two or more bullet points -- and some that do might be deficient in other areas. But by junior and senior level, especially the stronger skaters at those levels, we see more positive GOEs. And at lower levels we see more negatives on account of poor quality. But the skaters whose quality is weak enough to earn -GOE, e.g., if the edges are too flat to distinguish or aren't held on the exits of turns, will also not be earning level 3 or 4 because the tech panel won't give them credit for all the turns and steps attempted.

 

[Mathman]

^ Food for thought.

I think there has to be some kind of adjustment made to reflect the level of the competition. You cannot tell a child, "The quality of your steps, turns, and positions wasn't as good as Patrick Chan's, so you get a negative GOE."

 

[skateluvr]

I hate what the new judging system has done to figure skating.

I loved the spiral sequence that Bobek did, then Kwan mastered, then Sasha took to the max. There is no time to hold out moves now to create magical moments. That's what bothers me. I guess you must not like the busyness/purposeless motion that leaves us without time to be impressed. At least in singles. Icedance has been frenetic a long time.

Another from the heart MK skate in her prime. Orange is the only color I hate on MK. My least favorite dress. Vra I wonder?

 

[deedee1]

As for step sequences, Dai said in an interview prior to 2010-11 season, he welcomed the introduction of 'Chreo step'.

The interviewer was surprised by his answer, becuase s/he thought step sequences were rather Dai's strengths than the others for more points.

Dai hates it the most when his chreograoher comes up with good ideas for steps that work well for the music, then realizes it not good enough for 'level', and have to settle down with less interesting/inspiring ones as a result.

Dai loves the process working with his chreographer for new programs each season (he does not like to carry them over to next season unless something such as injuries occur). He believes it his obligation(?, duty?) to get himself fully prepared; say, like a brand new canvas for a painter, so that he can respond to any moves/modes/patterns that his chreographer demands/requests.
So, he always feels sorry for his chreographer to see him/her lose passions/excitements due to 'must-get-that-level' state.

Dai is happier now because one of the step sequences are FREE in the Free program and he can do whatever steps he likes to perfectly fit the misuc, while he may/can literally get less points compared to the past.

As for Spiral sequence, I love Ashley's 'Black Swan' the best!

Ashley's spiral this year, or Dai's 'Hiphop Swan' circular steps (the coolest one I have ever seen!) should get points twice more than the average/boring one of others, I believe.
I sincerely expect there will be a minor change in the near future to reward such great spirals or steps more points than the current same BV and partial GOEs.
These must be very 'crowd-pleasing' and 'catchy' to casual fans who do not know much about CoP.

I misss Michelle's spiral moments, Sasha's charlotte spiral (though on a flat edge), and Alexei's Winter circular & straight line step sequences (maybe level 1 under today's rule?) a lot!