What do Belbin & Agosto have that...

[paintbrushhh]

Mathman,

Your last sentence brings me to my second thought about ice dance. IIRC, Naomi has said it was difficult being the partner of the person who got all the kudos.

Seque from that to my second theory of ice dance. (disclaimer, I don't claim to be an expert, just an armchair coach.) It seems to me that when the man is the stronger skater (L&T, B&K, L&A, C&S), the team does not get as much of the judges' respect as compared to a team where the female is the better skater of the two (BF-P&M, A&P). Perhaps this is because the "unwritten rule", if you will, is for the man to present the lady, not overshadow her?

And to bring this back to B&A and L&T:
Perhaps the judges prefer the evenly matched team of B&A to the male-dominated partnership of L&T?

I agree too, that the nuances of judging the apples and oranges of dance lead to conspiracy theories. But then again, may I add that the behavior of judges and the past nonreaction of the ISU lead to conspiracy theories as well.

Paintbrushhh

 

[Mathman]

You made some great points, Paintbrushhh. But I have one question. Do you think that Bourne and Kraatz fall into the category of "man better than the woman" teams?

It will be interesting to see if Shae-lynn can make a go of it as a professional singles skater. Audiences in the U.S. loved Ekaterina Gordeeva and were very supportive of her career after the death of her husband. Shae-lynn seems to have similar popularity in Canada, so she might still have a nice career ahead of her.

Back on topic, about Belbin and Agosto. Setting aside comparisons to Lang and Tchernyshev, are they better than Punsalan and Swallow were? That's a team that U.S. fans always felt were given the shaft by the "conspirators" throughout their amateur career.

Mathman

 

[soogar]

Punsalon and Swallow were a really shaky team. During their compulsory dances and original set pattern (as it was back then) they were really shaky on their edges. Their freeskates were good but they weren't that complicated and I know that if I were a judge, I would think back to their previous programs in assessing their placement.

As for Bourne and Kratz, I really felt that Victor was the foundation of that team and was superior to Bourne. However their programs gave the feel that they were evenly matched in that they showcased Bourne's strengths rather than focus on her weaknesses. The thing with L&T and Shalom and Gates was that the programs were choreographed in such a way that you couldn't help noticing how fantastic a skater the guy is and the girl didn't even need to be there. Choreography is such a big deal b/c a program can be structured around someone's weaknesses to emphasize their strengths.

 

[paintbrushhh]

Mathman, I never followed Punsalan & Swallow as amateurs so really can't compare them to L&T. However I did see P&S's Umbrellas of Cherbourg and thought it was brilliant.

I don't think Shae-Lynn was/is a skater with poor technique, actually she's quite good. But, compared to Victor, she was weaker than he. Like Soogar said, B&K's choreography really did hide Shae-Lynn's inability to match Victor earlier in their career. After Heart Attack, or whatever that program was called, I think she did improve to the point that she was only marginally weaker than Victor. (And her sit spin is wayyyyyyy better than Vic's.)

Two things that bothered me about SLB, the first is that her back and shoulder positions always seemed tight.

The other complaint is silly, but during Riverdance, the two of them appropriately bobbed their heads to the music. (more a stiff side to side movement than a bob) But in every program afterward, regardless of the music, Shae-Lynn's head would randomly insert bobs, like she was channelling Micheal Flatley or somethin'.
It drove me nuts, to the point I was anticipating the bob and couldn't totally relax into the program.

Paintbrushhh

 

[Antilles]

Paintbrushh, I totally agree about the head bopping. However, I don't Shae-Lynn is an inferior skater to Victor. In particular, I actually think her twizzles are much better than his. She does some of the best in the world. I also think A&P were evenly matched, but would agree with all of the other lopsided pairings.

I don't think the teams with stronger men always get overlooked. Many though Christopher Dean was a better skater than Jayne Torvill, and look how well they did.

 

[Smiley0884]

I have to when I see people say that B&A have "such a good connection" with each other, whe they have all of about 3 expressions in their arsenal. "O face" "cheesed out smile", and "pained horsey look" Their expressions are just so choerographed and contrived, instead of feeling the music at whatever moment they're in, IMHO of course. Anyone who says that L&T don't have as much passion, must have missed their "parisian walkways" program, because the first 2 seconds had more passion than B&A could ever convey in 4 minutes. I don't think B&A were ever better than L&T. However they were able to capitlize on L&T's absences due to injury, with a little politik from Igor. There is no denying they are talented, but IMHO they have a way to go, and have some noticable weaknesses. As far as who's evenly matched, well I think that one is like some sort of myth. Naomi isn't quite as good as Peter, but I also don't think she's noticably worse, and she can hold her own during the foot wrk. Wheras Tanith is continuously holding on to Ben with a poorly turned out free leg. Both teams have their strengths and weaknesses. It all depends on what the judges prefer. B&A have more difficulty, but with poor form, lines, and extention, with some sloppiness in the execution. L&T are stronger in the lifts, and even though as of late their programs weren't as difficult what they did was executed better.

 

[soogar]

In terms of twizzles, the best twizzler in the world was Pasha Gritchuk. After their win in Nagano, several judges and analysts (Susie Wynne) commented that Pasha could do twizzles that could break off other skaters' legs. Bourne was really good in slower dances where she had time to hold her edges but she wasn't that great at fast footwork.

I agree that B&A are overrated but I think that ice dance is at a real sorry state
b/c Russia isn't fielding the teams like they used to. I haven't seen Navka skate but judging from Averbukh and Lobacheva, who were considered the best of what Russia had to offer, they were an extremely weak team. Especially when you think back to all the strong teams the Soviet Union used to field and they used to occupy two spots on the podium.

What sucks about US teams is that they just don't have the staying power. It seems like they break up too fast instead of riding out the hard times. Especially in ice dancing where you need years to develop your craft. I think that Americans tend to expect fast results and it really hurts in disciplines where you need time and teamwork to develop.

Why did Butler and Silverstein break up?