What exactly counts as heel slippage?

[RineX]

Hi all, for a well-fitting skate, how much space above the toes is acceptable vs too much? And is a tiny fraction of heel movement doing little test hops (on land) ok as long as the heel goes nice and securely back with some knee bend?

For context, I'm trying to decide between Risport RF3 Pros and Royal Pros. I had tried the Royal Pros in store (240, they didn't have the RF3s in that size) and they felt good but maybe a bit of pressure across the top of the toes of the right foot, I also felt that maybe the ankle didn't feel very secure though the heel felt reasonably secure. I ordered the RF3 Pros in the same size from Skaters Edge NZ with whom I had done a virtual fitting and they had recommended RF3 Pros for better heel/ankle security (and said the little toe area could be heat molded/punched out, based on my feedback on RF3s 1 size up (245) squashing my little toes) The RF3s Pros in 245 had too much volume over the toes but I was hoping that one size down would fix that problem. The RF3 Pros in 240 arrived today and I feel like there may still be slightly too much space above the toes, especially on my left foot? I can wriggle it up/down a reasonable amount, though my little toes on both feet are quite squashed (the Royal Pros were far more comfortable in that regard). It's hard to tell just walking without a blade, but I worry that when skating I may feel like 'gripping' with my toes if there is too much space above? What does everyone think?

Also, I felt that the heel lock of the RF3 was similar to the Royal Pro and surprisingly the ankle was maybe only a little bit more secure. Though it's hard to go off memory since I don't have the Royal Pros with me for direct comparison, and it can vary with lacing tightness, etc. Given that, I'm wondering if it would make more sense to return the RF3s and get the Royal Pros instead? I suppose the risk of that would be if there is a difference in heel lock and after breaking in the Royal Pro doesn't hold the heel or ankle as well or if the volume ends up too low and doesn't expand with breaking in? There will be quite a bit in shipping and restocking fees if I return the RF3s, so just want to be as sure as possible if I do that!

I also have a general question about heel slippage, if the heel only moves a fraction when doing little test jumps (on land, no blades mounted) and then goes back securely with knee bend, is that about as secure as a heel can get? Or are we expecting absolutely zero movement? The virtual fitter said that the heel lock will be the tightest when the boot is new so it needs to be extremely secure to begin with but I'm not sure what actually counts as heel slippage.

(For more context, the store I tried the Risport at didn't have a very experienced fitter so hard to just go by their advice, in fact they only did length measurements and fit me into 245s at first. The virtual fitter recommended 240 and I went back and asked to try it on and found the 240 length did seem better, especially if it would expand while breaking in. The virtual fitter also recommended going down to B from C width (the store stocks C as standard so I was only able to try C on), but I already felt it was very snug so wasn't game enough to try too small and hope it widens with breaking in.)

Thanks in advance!

ETA minor wording correction as my original wording made it sound like the heel moved more than the tiny amount it did with the test hops

 

[RineX]

To add to my previous question as well, can heat molding reduce toebox volume or improve heel/ankle lock? Or is it more able to expand/widen eg. for wider toes/more volume only? Thanks!

 

[tstop4me]

Hi all, for a well-fitting skate, how much space above the toes is acceptable vs too much? And is a tiny fraction of heel movement doing little test hops (on land) ok as long as the heel goes nice and securely back with some knee bend?

For context, I'm trying to decide between Risport RF3 Pros and Royal Pros. I had tried the Royal Pros in store (240, they didn't have the RF3s in that size) and they felt good but maybe a bit of pressure across the top of the toes of the right foot, I also felt that maybe the ankle didn't feel very secure though the heel felt reasonably secure. I ordered the RF3 Pros in the same size from Skaters Edge NZ with whom I had done a virtual fitting and they had recommended RF3 Pros for better heel/ankle security (and said the little toe area could be heat molded/punched out, based on my feedback on RF3s 1 size up (245) squashing my little toes) The RF3s Pros in 245 had too much volume over the toes but I was hoping that one size down would fix that problem. The RF3 Pros in 240 arrived today and I feel like there may still be slightly too much space above the toes, especially on my left foot? I can wriggle it up/down a reasonable amount, though my little toes on both feet are quite squashed (the Royal Pros were far more comfortable in that regard). It's hard to tell just walking without a blade, but I worry that when skating I may feel like 'gripping' with my toes if there is too much space above? What does everyone think?

Also, I felt that the heel lock of the RF3 was similar to the Royal Pro and surprisingly the ankle was maybe only a little bit more secure. Though it's hard to go off memory since I don't have the Royal Pros with me for direct comparison, and it can vary with lacing tightness, etc. Given that, I'm wondering if it would make more sense to return the RF3s and get the Royal Pros instead? I suppose the risk of that would be if there is a difference in heel lock and after breaking in the Royal Pro doesn't hold the heel or ankle as well or if the volume ends up too low and doesn't expand with breaking in? There will be quite a bit in shipping and restocking fees if I return the RF3s, so just want to be as sure as possible if I do that!

I also have a general question about heel slippage, if the heel only moves a fraction when doing little test jumps (on land, no blades mounted) and then goes back securely with knee bend, is that about as secure as a heel can get? Or are we expecting absolutely zero movement? The virtual fitter said that the heel lock will be the tightest when the boot is new so it needs to be extremely secure to begin with but I'm not sure what actually counts as heel slippage.

(For more context, the store I tried the Risport at didn't have a very experienced fitter so hard to just go by their advice, in fact they only did length measurements and fit me into 245s at first. The virtual fitter recommended 240 and I went back and asked to try it on and found the 240 length did seem better, especially if it would expand while breaking in. The virtual fitter also recommended going down to B from C width (the store stocks C as standard so I was only able to try C on), but I already felt it was very snug so wasn't game enough to try too small and hope it widens with breaking in.)

Thanks in advance!

ETA minor wording correction as my original wording made it sound like the heel moved more than the tiny amount it did with the test hops

* First off, if blades have not been mounted onto the skating boots, you should not be walking around or hopping (even small hops) with the skating boots. The soles of skating boots are not designed to be flexed in the manner of the soles of walking or running shoes. If the soles of skating boots are excessively flexed, you can induce cracks in them. Mounted blades constrain the soles such that they can't be excessively flexed.

* With respect to heel lock:

- Have a helper available.

- Make sure the floor area in which you're trying on the boot is covered with carpet, a rug, or a soft mat.

- While you are sitting, make sure that the heel of your foot is properly seated into the heel pocket of the boot, and that the boot is properly laced.

- Now have someone else help you. That other person (crouching down low) should hold the front of the boot around the outsole with one hand, and the back of the boot around the heel with the other. They should not squeeze down on your foot. They should hold the boot firmly against the (covered) floor.

- Now stand up. Try to wiggle the heel of your foot up-and-down and side-to-side. Ideally the heel of your foot should not move within the heel pocket of the boot. Only a very small amount due to compression of the padding. But no significant slipping up-and-down and side-to-side (this is hard to describe, but you shouldn't feel the heel of your foot sliding against the interior surface of the heel pocket, as opposed to compressing padding).

- If there is significant slipping, the heel pocket is too big. If the heel of your foot is painfully pinched, the heel pocket is too small. If the heel of your foot is gripped snugly, there is no significant slipping, and there is no painful pinching, the heel pocket is just right.

* I'll address some of your other questions later.

 

[RineX]

* First off, if blades have not been mounted onto the skating boots, you should not be walking around or hopping (even small hops) with the skating boots. The soles of skating boots are not designed to be flexed in the manner of the soles of walking or running shoes. If the soles of skating boots are excessively flexed, you can induce cracks in them. Mounted blades constrain the soles such that they can't be excessively flexed.

* With respect to heel lock:

- Have a helper available.

- Make sure the floor area in which you're trying on the boot is covered with carpet, a rug, or a soft mat.

- While you are sitting, make sure that the heel of your foot is properly seated into the heel pocket of the boot, and that the boot is properly laced.

- Now have someone else help you. That other person (crouching down low) should hold the front of the boot around the outsole with one hand, and the back of the boot around the heel with the other. They should not squeeze down on your foot. They should hold the boot firmly against the (covered) floor.

- Now stand up. Try to wiggle the heel of your foot up-and-down and side-to-side. Ideally the heel of your foot should not move within the heel pocket of the boot. Only a very small amount due to compression of the padding. But no significant slipping up-and-down and side-to-side (this is hard to describe, but you shouldn't feel the heel of your foot sliding against the interior surface of the heel pocket, as opposed to compressing padding).

- If there is significant slipping, the heel pocket is too big. If the heel of your foot is painfully pinched, the heel pocket is too small. If the heel of your foot is gripped snugly, there is no significant slipping, and there is no painful pinching, the heel pocket is just right.

* I'll address some of your other questions later.

Oh dear! I had no idea about not walking in them. When trying on the store she was happy for me to walk around and do little hops so I assumed it was fine...I did only try on carpet and not for that long so hopefully it's all fine.

Thanks so much for that! I'm thinking about trying the Royal Pros again in store and so that will be a good guide for me to see if it has a good heel fit. I don't have a helper available at home, so I could only do a limited test with me holding the boot for the RF3s but that does seem fine.

Thanks so much for your response, look forward to hearing your answers to my other questions later!

 

[tstop4me]

I don't have a helper available at home, so I could only do a limited test with me holding the boot for the RF3s but that does seem fine.

I strongly recommend a helper. If you don't have anyone else at home, then bring your boots (and a mat, if needed) to the rink or elsewhere, where you can get a helper. Otherwise, by yourself, you'll be stuck sitting down or stooped over, trying to hold your boot down, while trying to move the heel of your foot around. You've got too much at stake for such a shortcut. Proper heel fit is crucial.

 

[RineX]

I strongly recommend a helper. If you don't have anyone else at home, then bring your boots (and a mat, if needed) to the rink or elsewhere, where you can get a helper. Otherwise, by yourself, you'll be stuck sitting down or stooped over, trying to hold your boot down, while trying to move the heel of your foot around. You've got too much at stake for such a shortcut. Proper heel fit is crucial.

Oh absolutely I'm planning to bring them with me to the store so I can directly compare with the Royal Pros. I just thought I'd do a bit of a check today. It's just good to know what to look for because the person at the shop doesn't seem to be able to provide really good advice. If you get the chance to comment on the toe volume question as well that would be super helpful for me to consider/check when I'm in store. And if aside from heel fit, if there is any other fit that's absolutely crucial to get right so I can check that as well. (Probably length? My big toe just brushes the end but pulls away from the end when I bend my knee. I think that is correct?) Thanks so much!

 

[Diana Delafield]

Oh absolutely I'm planning to bring them with me to the store so I can directly compare with the Royal Pros. I just thought I'd do a bit of a check today. It's just good to know what to look for because the person at the shop doesn't seem to be able to provide really good advice. If you get the chance to comment on the toe volume question as well that would be super helpful for me to consider/check when I'm in store. And if aside from heel fit, if there is any other fit that's absolutely crucial to get right so I can check that as well. (Probably length? My big toe just brushes the end but pulls away from the end when I bend my knee. I think that is correct?) Thanks so much!

Can't add anything to what @tstop4me says, he knowing far more than I about equipment fitting and adjustments. If you have prominent ankle bones, make sure any boot you choose doesn't rub there also, particularly when deeply bending your knees while stroking. A quick route to pain and blisters. I've never had boots in which my narrow heels slipped at all, but I imagine if your heel slides, either up and down or side to side, that would also cause ankle bone problems even if it's only a tiny fraction of an inch. Repeated with every movement? Ouch. (I usually now wear Risport RF1Elites - size 230 - but have also had Riedell Silver Stars - size 4AA - recently and other brands in past years. Only had pain problems in the breaking-in first week or two when I was a kid and boots weren't padded and moldable like they are now.) Good luck!

 

[tstop4me]

(Cont'd)

Further fit checks; while in a standing position.

* Ideally (which is rarely the case), your toes should lightly brush the lining of the boot. The lining will compress with break-in, and you will get more clearance; so you don't want too much clearance at this point.

* You should be able to wiggle your toes slightly up-and-down and side-to-side.

* If you feel slight pressure against any one (or couple) of your toes, that can probably be fixed via heat molding/punching. But if your toes are all tightly cramped, either the width or the length is too small.

* Assuming the length and width are OK, you have excessive height (volume) in the toe/ball region if you can curl your toes up without touching the lining of the top of the toebox. Similarly, you have excessive height, if you can form your toes into a claw and push your ball up.

* As long as the height is not overly excessive, it's useful to have a high toebox. If you're lucky, you can skate with the included stock removable footbed (removable insole). But many skaters need to replace the stock removable footbed with a corrective footbed or orthotic. These usually take up more height than the stock unit. If the height of the toebox is too low, sometimes there's not enough room to accommodate the requisite corrective footbed or orthotic; so keep that in mind. If the fit is otherwise fine, but you find the toebox a bit too high, there is a fix (as long as you skate with socks on): Place a foam pad over your bare toes, and then roll the sock on over the pad. Obviously, if there's a boot that fits without doing this, that would be preferable.

(More to follow)

 

[RineX]

(Cont'd)

Further fit checks; while in a standing position.

* Ideally (which is rarely the case), your toes should lightly brush the lining of the boot. The lining will compress with break-in, and you will get more clearance; so you don't want too much clearance at this point.

* You should be able to wiggle your toes slightly up-and-down and side-to-side.

* If you feel slight pressure against any one (or couple) of your toes, that can probably be fixed via heat molding/punching. But if your toes are all tightly cramped, either the width or the length is too small.

* Assuming the length and width are OK, you have excessive height (volume) in the toe/ball region if you can curl your toes up without touching the lining of the top of the toebox. Similarly, you have excessive height, if you can form your toes into a claw and push your ball up.

* As long as the height is not overly excessive, it's useful to have a high toebox. If you're lucky, you can skate with the included stock removable footbed (removable insole). But many skaters need to replace the stock removable footbed with a corrective footbed or orthotic. These usually take up more height than the stock unit. If the height of the toebox is too low, sometimes there's not enough room to accommodate the requisite corrective footbed or orthotic; so keep that in mind. If the fit is otherwise fine, but you find the toebox a bit too high, there is a fix (as long as you skate with socks on): Place a foam pad over your bare toes, and then roll the sock on over the pad. Obviously, if there's a boot that fits without doing this, that would be preferable.

(More to follow)

Thanks so much! Super helpful! My toes touch the top when curling up. I can form a claw and push the ball of my foot upwards but the ball of my foot doesn't lose contact with the sole (just no longer transferring weight through the ball when I do that), is that a sign of excessive height or still OK?

I've actually tried it on with both the original insole as well as the Riedell R fit Insoles which I got in the same order because I normally wear custom orthotics in my normal shoes and wanted more arch support. It did reduce the volume a bit but can still claw my toes if I try.

Can't add anything to what @tstop4me says, he knowing far more than I about equipment fitting and adjustments. If you have prominent ankle bones, make sure any boot you choose doesn't rub there also, particularly when deeply bending your knees while stroking. A quick route to pain and blisters. I've never had boots in which my narrow heels slipped at all, but I imagine if your heel slides, either up and down or side to side, that would also cause ankle bone problems even if it's only a tiny fraction of an inch. Repeated with every movement? Ouch. (I usually now wear Risport RF1Elites - size 230 - but have also had Riedell Silver Stars - size 4AA - recently and other brands in past years. Only had pain problems in the breaking-in first week or two when I was a kid and boots weren't padded and moldable like they are now.) Good luck!

Thanks! My ankle bones seem ok in both skates though who knows when I actually try skating in them!

Comfort wise, my right 4th and 5th toe are quite squashed in the RF3s though it sounds like it could be heat molded/punched out if I choose to keep them...

 

[tstop4me]

Thanks so much! Super helpful! My toes touch the top when curling up. I can form a claw and push the ball of my foot upwards but the ball of my foot doesn't lose contact with the sole (just no longer transferring weight through the ball when I do that), is that a sign of excessive height or still OK?

I've actually tried it on with both the original insole as well as the Riedell R fit Insoles which I got in the same order because I normally wear custom orthotics in my normal shoes and wanted more arch support. It did reduce the volume a bit but can still claw my toes if I try.

* Sounds like the fit is marginal. Since you have the boots available, try out the toe pad fix. Do you have some scrap soft, squishy, sponge foam sheet, around 1/4" to 3/8" thick (uncompressed)? Commonly used as packing for electronics and jewelry and such. If not, buy some moleskin foam (too firm for actual skating; but good enough for a test). Moleskin foam is about 1/8" thick, has moleskin on one side, foam in the middle, and adhesive on the other side; the adhesive is covered with a liner. If you use one layer of moleskin foam, leave the liner intact; place the moleskin side against your bare toes; don't apply the adhesive directly to your toes in this instance, since you want to be able to move them around. If you use two layers of moleskin foam, remove the liners, and stick the moleskin foam together back-to-back.

* Cut the sheet to cover your toes (just on top of your toes, not in front or on the sides). Place the sheet over your toes. Roll your sock up so you can slip the toe cap of the sock over your toes+sheet. Then unroll your sock over the rest of your foot. The sock will hold the sheet in place. [I hope you're not like one of my friends. She insists on skating barefoot. So I couldn't use this for her.]

* If this turns out to be a satisfactory solution (and you can't get a better fitting boot), I'll tell you a better type and grade of foam to use.

* I'll follow up later with a discussion of heat molding.

 

[Query]

I personally would now try to avoid any boots that squished any of my toes together. Partly because I eventually developed bone spurs between my metatarsals. I suspect squishing them together caused them to rub and wear away the cartilage.

Toe boxes can be widened a little by heat molds and punches - but in my limited experience with leather boots, they tend to almost return to width. (But maybe that isn't true of modern thermoplastic stiffening elements and other materials??) It's a very difficult part of the boot to stretch, both because it is hard to fit stretching tools there exactly where you want them, and because it is one of the strongest and stiffest part of skate boots. The footbed itself can't be stretched at all.

In the best of all possible worlds, skate boots would fit perfectly. I differ from the vast majority of skaters in that I would prefer a little extra space (which I have sometimes created by removing the stock insoles, and replacing them if the underlying footbed isn't smooth with something thinner - e.g., a cheap thin insole, or even cardboard, though cardboard wears out fast, cut to shape, to create) to an overly tight fit, because I am confident I can fill the space with extra padding, e.g., adhesive foam like moleskin.


To other respondents: Is there a manufacturer source on the idea that you can't walk in boots without blades? Or accounts of a crack actually happening from that? Do you know anyone it happened to?

Is the crack you say can develop something we can see before buying, and where is it? (Of course I know that once the blades are on, it is a good idea to use blade guards off ice, to preserve the edges.)

Since blade mounting plates can more or less cover any or all parts of the outsole and heel, especially if you include blade offsetting, and jumping puts a lot of force on them, I find that idea odd. Though I suppose it is possible some boots might not have a sufficiently stiff outsole, and depend on the mounting plates for some of that stiffness. Does that mean they shouldn't be used with cheap blades that have thin mounting plates?

 

[tstop4me]

To add to my previous question as well, can heat molding reduce toebox volume or improve heel/ankle lock? Or is it more able to expand/widen eg. for wider toes/more volume only? Thanks!

* As background info, consider a rough balloon analogy.

First consider a regular balloon fabricated from latex, an elastic material. The balloon has an initial small size and an initial wall thickness. As you inflate the balloon (e.g., with pressurized air), the balloon expands, and the wall gets thinner. When you deflate the balloon, the balloon shrinks, and the wall gets thicker again, because of the elastic material.

Now consider what happens with a balloon fabricated from a thermoplastic material. When the balloon is at room temp, it is rigid, and it has an initial diameter (for simplicity, let's assume it's spherical, a round ball) and an initial wall thickness. Let's heat it up until the material softens and can flow. We again pressurize it; it expands to a larger diameter round ball; and the wall gets thinner. We let it cool. It stays a rigid round ball, remaining at the larger diameter and thinner wall.

Now what happens if we want to shrink the large round ball back to a small round ball? We heat it up until the material softens and can flow. We apply external pressure (e.g., squeeze it).

if we pinch the top towards the bottom, we can shrink the size from top to bottom. But the sides will now bulge out. We no longer have a round ball, but a squashed ball.

If we squeeze along multiple directions, the ball will now be smaller. But the shape will now be irregular. We no longer have a round ball, but a crumpled ball.

That's because the thermoplastic wall does not get thicker as you squeeze the ball (unlike the case in the elastic balloon), so all that excess surface has to go somewhere as you squeeze the ball.

* Now consider a boot fabricated from a thermoplastic material or incorporating a thermoplastic interface layer. We can heat it up until the material softens, apply pressure to reshape it, let it cool while maintaining the new shape, and it will retain the new shape after it has cooled.

- Different portions of the boot are more flexible, and are more amenable to reshaping. The heel pocket is very rigid, the toebox is not as rigid, and the rest of the uppers, with an important exception, is relatively more flexible. The important exception is the region of the uppers near the seam where it is fastened to the sole, since this seam constrains flexibility.

- Proper heel fit is crucial; but the heel pocket is the most rigid portion of the boot. My advice is, if the heel of your foot doesn't lock into the heel pocket of the boot properly from the start, get another boot. In particular, if the heel pocket is too big, heating it and squeezing it will likely cause uncomfortable pinch points. In some instances, if the heel pocket is slightly too small, you might be able to get away with heating it and expanding it with a proper tool. But best to have a heel pocket that fits without modification.

- If the toebox is too small in any direction, it can be heated and expanded with a proper tool. Depending on the degree of reshaping, a couple of iterations may be needed. The amount of reshaping that can be accommodated depends on the boot. If some toes are squished, check with the tech whether the toebox can be expanded enough, or whether you need a different size. But what happens if the toebox is too large in any direction? What happens if you heat it up and squeeze it? As discussed above, you will end up with either a squashed or crumpled toebox, because the wall thickness of the thermoplastic won't increase during the operation.

- As for the rest of the uppers, when it is heated, pressure applied by hand or by the laces will shape the boot to your foot. One possible exception is if you have prominent ankle bones. Those might require follow-up spot heating and punching out with a proper tool (again, a couple of iterations may be needed).

Hope this is more helpful than confusing.

Hope you find a good resolution to your boot issues.

 

[Diana Delafield]

- Proper heel fit is crucial; but the heel pocket is the most rigid portion of the boot. My advice is, if the heel of your foot doesn't lock into the heel pocket of the boot properly from the start, get another boot. In particular, if the heel pocket is too big, heating it and squeezing it will likely cause uncomfortable pinch points. In some instances, if the heel pocket is slightly too small, you might be able to get away with heating it and expanding it with a proper tool. But best to have a heel pocket that fits without modification

Back when I started pairs, I got sent to Hellmut May for jump coaching, to bring me up to my partner's level. Dr May coached competitors from Western Canada from Karen Magnussen to Tracy Wilson to Ravi Walia jumps and spins. He also was the designer of the WIFA skate boot, and distributed them in Vancouver from his little shop under the end of a bridge, like visiting a troll (the folktale kind, not today's nasty kind ). Unless your feet were absolutely wrong for them, if you were training with Dr May you wore WIFAs, so I made quite a few visits to CanAlpine Agency to be fitted. My father always drove me there because he'd had a grandfather who was a workboot maker and had learned a lot about the trade himself, and they got to be good friends. I can still hear Dr May expounding exactly what you've said above in his Austrian accent, with my father describing the making of loggers' safety boots in his Scottish accent .

A bit off-topic there, but my point was that yes, the heel snugness is the part that has to be right from the beginning. Almost everywhere else in the boot can then be modified to some degree, but it starts from the heel.

 

[tstop4me]

... from his little shop under the end of a bridge, like visiting a troll (the folktale kind, not today's nasty kind ).

This really made my day. Thanks. You do have a knack for colorful narratives.

 

[RineX]

* As background info, consider a rough balloon analogy.

First consider a regular balloon fabricated from latex, an elastic material. The balloon has an initial small size and an initial wall thickness. As you inflate the balloon (e.g., with pressurized air), the balloon expands, and the wall gets thinner. When you deflate the balloon, the balloon shrinks, and the wall gets thicker again, because of the elastic material.

Now consider what happens with a balloon fabricated from a thermoplastic material. When the balloon is at room temp, it is rigid, and it has an initial diameter (for simplicity, let's assume it's spherical, a round ball) and an initial wall thickness. Let's heat it up until the material softens and can flow. We again pressurize it; it expands to a larger diameter round ball; and the wall gets thinner. We let it cool. It stays a rigid round ball, remaining at the larger diameter and thinner wall.

Now what happens if we want to shrink the large round ball back to a small round ball? We heat it up until the material softens and can flow. We apply external pressure (e.g., squeeze it).

if we pinch the top towards the bottom, we can shrink the size from top to bottom. But the sides will now bulge out. We no longer have a round ball, but a squashed ball.

If we squeeze along multiple directions, the ball will now be smaller. But the shape will now be irregular. We no longer have a round ball, but a crumpled ball.

That's because the thermoplastic wall does not get thicker as you squeeze the ball (unlike the case in the elastic balloon), so all that excess surface has to go somewhere as you squeeze the ball.

* Now consider a boot fabricated from a thermoplastic material or incorporating a thermoplastic interface layer. We can heat it up until the material softens, apply pressure to reshape it, let it cool while maintaining the new shape, and it will retain the new shape after it has cooled.

- Different portions of the boot are more flexible, and are more amenable to reshaping. The heel pocket is very rigid, the toebox is not as rigid, and the rest of the uppers, with an important exception, is relatively more flexible. The important exception is the region of the uppers near the seam where it is fastened to the sole, since this seam constrains flexibility.

- Proper heel fit is crucial; but the heel pocket is the most rigid portion of the boot. My advice is, if the heel of your foot doesn't lock into the heel pocket of the boot properly from the start, get another boot. In particular, if the heel pocket is too big, heating it and squeezing it will likely cause uncomfortable pinch points. In some instances, if the heel pocket is slightly too small, you might be able to get away with heating it and expanding it with a proper tool. But best to have a heel pocket that fits without modification.

- If the toebox is too small in any direction, it can be heated and expanded with a proper tool. Depending on the degree of reshaping, a couple of iterations may be needed. The amount of reshaping that can be accommodated depends on the boot. If some toes are squished, check with the tech whether the toebox can be expanded enough, or whether you need a different size. But what happens if the toebox is too large in any direction? What happens if you heat it up and squeeze it? As discussed above, you will end up with either a squashed or crumpled toebox, because the wall thickness of the thermoplastic won't increase during the operation.

- As for the rest of the uppers, when it is heated, pressure applied by hand or by the laces will shape the boot to your foot. One possible exception is if you have prominent ankle bones. Those might require follow-up spot heating and punching out with a proper tool (again, a couple of iterations may be needed).

Hope this is more helpful than confusing.

Hope you find a good resolution to your boot issues.

Thanks so much! All of that was so helpful and really gives me a better idea of what fit to aim for when trying on skates and how heat molding might be able to affect it!

I personally would now try to avoid any boots that squished any of my toes together. Partly because I eventually developed bone spurs between my metatarsals. I suspect squishing them together caused them to rub and wear away the cartilage.

Toe boxes can be widened a little by heat molds and punches - but in my limited experience with leather boots, they tend to almost return to width. (But maybe that isn't true of modern thermoplastic stiffening elements and other materials??) It's a very difficult part of the boot to stretch, both because it is hard to fit stretching tools there exactly where you want them, and because it is one of the strongest and stiffest part of skate boots. The footbed itself can't be stretched at all.

In the best of all possible worlds, skate boots would fit perfectly. I differ from the vast majority of skaters in that I would prefer a little extra space (which I have sometimes created by removing the stock insoles, and replacing them if the underlying footbed isn't smooth with something thinner - e.g., a cheap thin insole, or even cardboard, though cardboard wears out fast, cut to shape, to create) to an overly tight fit, because I am confident I can fill the space with extra padding, e.g., adhesive foam like moleskin.


To other respondents: Is there a manufacturer source on the idea that you can't walk in boots without blades? Or accounts of a crack actually happening from that? Do you know anyone it happened to?

Is the crack you say can develop something we can see before buying, and where is it? (Of course I know that once the blades are on, it is a good idea to use blade guards off ice, to preserve the edges.)

Since blade mounting plates can more or less cover any or all parts of the outsole and heel, especially if you include blade offsetting, and jumping puts a lot of force on them, I find that idea odd. Though I suppose it is possible some boots might not have a sufficiently stiff outsole, and depend on the mounting plates for some of that stiffness. Does that mean they shouldn't be used with cheap blades that have thin mounting plates?

Yeah seems a bit of a gamble relying on being able to sufficiently punch out the toebox by a large amount. I definitely don't want it affecting my long term foot health!

Back when I started pairs, I got sent to Hellmut May for jump coaching, to bring me up to my partner's level. Dr May coached competitors from Western Canada from Karen Magnussen to Tracy Wilson to Ravi Walia jumps and spins. He also was the designer of the WIFA skate boot, and distributed them in Vancouver from his little shop under the end of a bridge, like visiting a troll (the folktale kind, not today's nasty kind ). Unless your feet were absolutely wrong for them, if you were training with Dr May you wore WIFAs, so I made quite a few visits to CanAlpine Agency to be fitted. My father always drove me there because he'd had a grandfather who was a workboot maker and had learned a lot about the trade himself, and they got to be good friends. I can still hear Dr May expounding exactly what you've said above in his Austrian accent, with my father describing the making of loggers' safety boots in his Scottish accent .

A bit off-topic there, but my point was that yes, the heel snugness is the part that has to be right from the beginning. Almost everywhere else in the boot can then be modified to some degree, but it starts from the heel.

That's hilarious!

Update in terms of my skates fitting, I went back in store and tried on the Royal Pros in 240 and overall am happy with their fit. Now that I know what to look for with heel lock, I think the heel lock was always fine I just wasn't testing it the right way! I also got to try on the Riedell R-fit insoles in them to check they still fit. Overall pretty good, just slight pressure on the right 5th toe which hopefully the heat molding got rid of (it was super tight during the heat molding and the entire side of my right foot was painful! But hopefully that was just due to the tightness of the lacing during the heat molding. I haven't tried them on again as I read best to leave them alone for 24 hours after heat molding). Sadly, the blades haven't yet arrived in store from the warehouse so it'll be a bit longer before I can try skating in them. I requested both 9" and 9.25" Coronation Ace blades to see which would fit better. Advice seems mixed on entire length vs 1/4" shorter, any thoughts? The official Risport sizing chart says 8.75 for 1/4 blades and 9 for 1/3 blades, but the outsole measures around 9.25 inches and everywhere else says 9 or 9.25 so it's a bit confusing.

As for the RF3s I will have to return them to NZ, hopefully that goes smoothly and postage isn't too expensive.

Thanks everyone for all your help!

 

[tstop4me]

Overall pretty good, just slight pressure on the right 5th toe which hopefully the heat molding got rid of (it was super tight during the heat molding and the entire side of my right foot was painful! But hopefully that was just due to the tightness of the lacing during the heat molding.

You may need a follow-up adjustment to the toebox. The toebox can be spot heated and punched-out with the proper tool. Much less painful than using your toes as the tool. But I hope your tech knew in advance that your particular boot model can be re-shaped sufficiently to accommodate your feet.

 

[tstop4me]

Sadly, the blades haven't yet arrived in store from the warehouse so it'll be a bit longer before I can try skating in them. I requested both 9" and 9.25" Coronation Ace blades to see which would fit better. Advice seems mixed on entire length vs 1/4" shorter, any thoughts? The official Risport sizing chart says 8.75 for 1/4 blades and 9 for 1/3 blades, but the outsole measures around 9.25 inches and everywhere else says 9 or 9.25 so it's a bit confusing.

* Don't go by sizing charts.

- In some instances, there are just outright typos (e.g., in one chart, a size 8 boot had a longer blade length than a size 8.5 boot. Huh?)

- The Jackson blade sizing charts at one time had a cautionary footnote along the lines of, "This chart is provided for guidance only. To ensure proper blade length, always measure the length of the actual boot." In my instance, the chart gave a blade length that was 1/2" shorter than the outsole length. I just checked the latest Jackson chart. They've removed that caveat, and have a new footnote (see below). I like the old footnote better.

- Also, boot manufacturers tend to change their line more frequently than before. Sometimes these changes affect the length of the outsole, but there's a lag in updating their size charts. Also (at least for Jackson) sometimes they keep the same product designation when they update the boot. So if you're in the transition from previous model to new model, how do you know which one you have? So it's always best to have the boots in hand before deciding on blade length. I realize it's an annoyance if you have to wait to order the blades; but there's a lot at stake, so be patient.

- Blade length recommendation of 1/4" shorter than the outsole length used to be routine. But boots started getting substantially redesigned. In particular, the heel pitch on many boots have gotten larger, and outsoles on many boots have gotten trimmed. Some manufacturers still recommend 1/4" shorter; other manufacturers recommend full length; some leave it to personal preference (which probably covers it best). Jackson suggests 1/4" shorter, but adds: "If preference is other than suggested, please refer to the sole length and measure skater's sole to confirm blade fit." Edea used to recommend full length, but their latest guidance is: "Edea provide a suggested blade size chart but this is only a guide. Ask your coach if he/she has preferences."

- I couldn't find a similar recommendation for Risport, and I've never worn Risport. But here is an important factor to consider when choosing between 1/4" shorter and full length:

One major advantage of 1/4" shorter is that it allows you greater freedom in blade positioning and angular alignment. For me this is important because I need to mount the blade to the inside to compensate for strong pronation. Also, typically, the front tip of the sole plate is mounted flush with the front tip of the outsole. But as a matter of personal adjustment of the position of the drag pick and sweet spot, you might want to move the blade slightly forward or backward. For whatever reason, when changing the position and alignment of the blade, there's not an issue if the front of the sole plate extends slightly beyond the front of the outsole. But (for me, not everyone agrees) there is an issue if the side of the sole plate extends beyond the side of the outsole (other than at the very front) or the heel plate extends beyond the side or back of the heel. I personally would not care to fall and have the sole plate or heel plate dig into the ice. So, a 1/4" shorter gives you more mounting freedom than a full length.

But if you have a short outsole to begin with (due to high heel pitch or trimmed outsole, or both), and don't need a larger range of mounting freedom, go with a full length.

Hope this helps!

 

[Query]

While it may be true that the heel of a figure skating boot is stiffer and possibly stronger than the toebox, the more-or-less half dome shape of the toebox somewhat limits reshaping too, whereas to some extent you are more free to change the bend angle around the foot in the back. Also, you can easily stick moleskin onto the back and bottom of the boot at the heel, to make it fit if it is a little loose anywhere.

But many skaters hardly use their toes when skating, though some want the front of the toes to touch the front of the boot to help support jumps, and a much smaller number want their toes squeezed together. To me, that means there can be some space to the sides and above the toes, though not everyone agrees.

Some of the kind of heel motion you are talking about is often considered good in walking shoes, especially hiking boots. But balancing on a skate blade is harder, and we are also required to control our edging better. So I think a snug heel is absolutely critical to controlling the movements of the boot, and therefore the blade.

BTW, my podiatrist said a little pressure on the sides and maybe the fronts of the toes doesn't do much if any harm to most people for foot health. But a lot of pressure is probably bad.

I personally believe the main reason most figure skates have narrow toeboxes is that many people consider narrow toeboxes to be stylish. In terms of standards of dress, figure skating is often pretty conservative, and style matters as much to many people as comfort, function and health.

BTW, on many work boots - possibly including those logger boots - the toebox may be much stiffer and stronger - in fact they are often required to use "steel toe boots", so if something drops on your toe, the toe is much less likely to break. At least in the U.S.A. many types of workboot are legally required to be like that.

Diana, AFAIK, trolls in folklore were usually quite evil too. (E.g., "Three Billy Goats Gruff".) Do you know of any folklore examples of good trolls?

 

[Diana Delafield]

While it may be true that the heel of a figure skating boot is stiffer and possibly stronger than the toebox, the more-or-less half dome shape of the toebox somewhat limits reshaping too, whereas to some extent you are more free to change the bend angle around the foot in the back. Also, you can easily stick moleskin onto the back and bottom of the boot at the heel, to make it fit if it is a little loose anywhere.

But many skaters hardly use their toes when skating, though some want the front of the toes to touch the front of the boot to help support jumps, and a much smaller number want their toes squeezed together. To me, that means there can be some space to the sides and above the toes, though not everyone agrees.

Some of the kind of heel motion you are talking about is often considered good in walking shoes, especially hiking boots. But balancing on a skate blade is harder, and we are also required to control our edging better. So I think a snug heel is absolutely critical to controlling the movements of the boot, and therefore the blade.

BTW, my podiatrist said a little pressure on the sides and maybe the fronts of the toes doesn't do much if any harm to most people for foot health. But a lot of pressure is probably bad.

I personally believe the main reason most figure skates have narrow toeboxes is that many people consider narrow toeboxes to be stylish. In terms of standards of dress, figure skating is often pretty conservative, and style matters as much to many people as comfort, function and health.

BTW, on many work boots - possibly including those logger boots - the toebox may be much stiffer and stronger - in fact they are often required to use "steel toe boots", so if something drops on your toe, the toe is much less likely to break. At least in the U.S.A. many types of workboot are legally required to be like that.

Diana, AFAIK, trolls in folklore were usually quite evil too. (E.g., "Three Billy Goats Gruff".) Do you know of any folklore examples of good trolls?

The reference was to the habitual dwelling location of a troll, not to its personality. (The traditional personality description to which you refer was the reason the name was attached in computer vocabulary to the digital version.)

 

[RineX]

You may need a follow-up adjustment to the toebox. The toebox can be spot heated and punched-out with the proper tool. Much less painful than using your toes as the tool. But I hope your tech knew in advance that your particular boot model can be re-shaped sufficiently to accommodate your feet.

I tried them on again and there is still a slight pressure on the right 5th toe, but definitely less than before. It's not much so hopefully should be ok to be punched out if it doesn't go away with breaking in. Definitely much less than the RF3s and the virtual fitters seemed quite convinced that could be punched out easily.

* Don't go by sizing charts.

- In some instances, there are just outright typos (e.g., in one chart, a size 8 boot had a longer blade length than a size 8.5 boot. Huh?)

- The Jackson blade sizing charts at one time had a cautionary footnote along the lines of, "This chart is provided for guidance only. To ensure proper blade length, always measure the length of the actual boot." In my instance, the chart gave a blade length that was 1/2" shorter than the outsole length. I just checked the latest Jackson chart. They've removed that caveat, and have a new footnote (see below). I like the old footnote better.

- Also, boot manufacturers tend to change their line more frequently than before. Sometimes these changes affect the length of the outsole, but there's a lag in updating their size charts. Also (at least for Jackson) sometimes they keep the same product designation when they update the boot. So if you're in the transition from previous model to new model, how do you know which one you have? So it's always best to have the boots in hand before deciding on blade length. I realize it's an annoyance if you have to wait to order the blades; but there's a lot at stake, so be patient.

- Blade length recommendation of 1/4" shorter than the outsole length used to be routine. But boots started getting substantially redesigned. In particular, the heel pitch on many boots have gotten larger, and outsoles on many boots have gotten trimmed. Some manufacturers still recommend 1/4" shorter; other manufacturers recommend full length; some leave it to personal preference (which probably covers it best). Jackson suggests 1/4" shorter, but adds: "If preference is other than suggested, please refer to the sole length and measure skater's sole to confirm blade fit." Edea used to recommend full length, but their latest guidance is: "Edea provide a suggested blade size chart but this is only a guide. Ask your coach if he/she has preferences."

- I couldn't find a similar recommendation for Risport, and I've never worn Risport. But here is an important factor to consider when choosing between 1/4" shorter and full length:

One major advantage of 1/4" shorter is that it allows you greater freedom in blade positioning and angular alignment. For me this is important because I need to mount the blade to the inside to compensate for strong pronation. Also, typically, the front tip of the sole plate is mounted flush with the front tip of the outsole. But as a matter of personal adjustment of the position of the drag pick and sweet spot, you might want to move the blade slightly forward or backward. For whatever reason, when changing the position and alignment of the blade, there's not an issue if the front of the sole plate extends slightly beyond the front of the outsole. But (for me, not everyone agrees) there is an issue if the side of the sole plate extends beyond the side of the outsole (other than at the very front) or the heel plate extends beyond the side or back of the heel. I personally would not care to fall and have the sole plate or heel plate dig into the ice. So, a 1/4" shorter gives you more mounting freedom than a full length.

But if you have a short outsole to begin with (due to high heel pitch or trimmed outsole, or both), and don't need a larger range of mounting freedom, go with a full length.

Hope this helps!

Thanks! That's very helpful to know.

I personally believe the main reason most figure skates have narrow toeboxes is that many people consider narrow toeboxes to be stylish.

Perhaps! It does seem like more people struggle with too narrow toeboxes than the opposite.

The reference was to the habitual dwelling location of a troll, not to its personality. (The traditional personality description to which you refer was the reason the name was attached in computer vocabulary to the digital version.)

I got that reference