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- Feb 17, 2010
And a Croatian judge would favor a Russian skater because of national favoritism?
What was Michelle Kwan's peak year?
- Thread starter skateluvr
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And a Croatian judge would favor a Russian skater because of national favoritism?
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- Sep 14, 2008
The SP competition at that event was not good quality. I did a breakdown of all the top Short Programs from the event here - why don't you also share yours and give reasoning of who deserved to place ahead of Michelle that didn't? If she hadn't fallen on the Double Axel, she would have easily won the SP. How far down is that 1 fall supposed to knock her? 7th place would be correct if she had skated exactly like this at 2002 Olympics, but the competition was not at that level.
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In cold war terms, Croatia was part of Communist Yugoslavia until 1990 (though Yugoslavia was mostly a thorn in Russia's side). It seems likely that ice skating coaching and administration, insofar as it existed, would be run mostly by the Leningrad (St. Petersburg) and Moscow figure skating centers. In those days it seemed not impossible that a judge with this background might lean toward a fellow Slavic skater.
I am just guessing here. I don't really know anything about the skating, coaching or judging background of the Croatian judge, Lovorka Kodrin. Anyway, that's the way people thought throughout most of Dick Button's career as a commentator.
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- Feb 17, 2010
So if a judge favors Slutskaya it's because they have a nationalistic bias, but if they favor Kwan they are fair. Got it.
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- Jul 9, 2014
IMO only, I would have placed Anna Rchnio and Elena Liashenko ahead of Michelle on that day. Lastly, I would have placed future OGM Sarah Hughes ahead of Michelle. She definitely flutzed however, she landed a nice triple flip which was more difficult than Michelle's 3 Toe and she had better spins than Michelle that day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BevjNkPJXhY
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- Jun 21, 2003
I wouldn't put it that way. It's just that back in the day there was a lot of politicking going on -- or at least that was the public perception of the sport -- and people thought in terms of the "Eastern Bloc," etc. Remember, this was only a few weeks after the 2002 Olympic pairs controversy that pitted the evil Franco-Russian ISU axis against Canada and the U.S. on North American home soil.
In fact, they might have given the Olympic gold medal to Michelle in 2002 (she didn't need to win the LP) just to please the homies, except that the pairs thing called extra scrutiny on the judging and they didn't dare.
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Sorry Mathman..
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- Feb 17, 2010
I agree with you in the latter statement. There have always been non-Soviet voting blocs.
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- Mar 23, 2014
I recall reading--perhaps in Joy Goodwin's book The Second Mark--that immediately after the pairs event all the judges/officials jumped on the French judge as the corrupt one, long before there was any evidence or confession from her.
The impression I received from what I read was that it HAD to be the French judge who was corrupt for putting the Russians first, since the French usually were on the "Western bloc" side. No one suspected any of the other judges who put the Russians first, because that was just politics as usual. But a French judge putting Eastern skaters ahead of Western when both skated excellently? NEVER.
It's pretty difficult to determine "cheating" in a subjective sport until someone doesn't vote how they're "supposed" to.
If judges favored Michelle, they did so because she was better! That Irina Slutskaya could have beaten her when both were clean and did the same jumps, basically, exposes the bias in Slute's favor.
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- Feb 17, 2010
There's a huge difference between thinking a skater should have won a competition and thinking that the only explanation for a skater losing is due to bias. Both Michelle and Irina did things better than the other so, when both are clean, either could win.
The French judge admitted she voted the way she did because of a deal. She and the head of the French federation were suspended. They are proven cheaters.
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- Mar 23, 2014
I realize that, but upon reading The Second Mark, I learned (according to the author) that the French judge admitted it after everyone already suspected her and put a ton of pressure on her. And my point is that all of that suspicion was on her NOT because she admitted to a deal (which she hadn't done yet), but because she didn't vote with the countries whom France usually voted with.
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- Jun 21, 2003
The funny thing is that the French officials were suspended because of admitted deal-making, but evidently the ISU thought that there was no other party to this one-sided deal, just the French Federation all by itself making deals with its own imagination.
Oh well. The IOC made the ISU do something about it, and they did. They made the judging anonymous.
You're right. But the Russians kept their mouths shut.
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- Sep 14, 2008
Hughes underrotated her Flip, so I don't consider that jump she did to be better than a 3Toe. Her jump combo was barely rotated on both of the jumps and badly flutzed, so even with Michelle's fall on the 2Axel, Hughes really isn't that far ahead in total on the jumps to me (I'd have a .2 separation between them on the tech mark for jump elements). Her layback was better, and the flying spin had a bit more to it, but I wouldn't call her combo spin better. The footwork sequence and spiral sequence were both inferior to Kwan's; in total I would have Hughes behind Kwan by .1 on the non-jump elements, which puts Hughes' final tech mark ahead of Kwan by only .1, not much of a cushion. Kwan was far better than Hughes in all regards on "the second mark", especially since Hughes ended her program way after the music, so it's really not close to me.
Rechnio I can understand placing ahead but there were actually a lot of problems in that SP. No required footwork at all into her Flip was a big one. I guess it comes down to how much you liked her presentation; for me she rushed through it too much and didn't have any particularly great moves. Liashenko is the same situation, many tech problems with her performance even if "looks" relatively clean, and some strong aspects to her skating but also notable flaws - not much stretch, awkward jump entraces.
That SP competition shows a potential benefit of CoP scoring - there wasn't a huge difference in overall accomplishment between the programs, so certain people getting buried in the SP placements isn't an accurate reflection what everyone actually did. In the end Michelle was definitely 2nd best in the LP by a pretty big margin, so her Silver medal was correct.
Irina's programs were almost always far below Michelle's in terms of performance/choreography/interpretation, certainly that was the case with Irina's Tosca. She had bigger jumps, but that alone isn't enough to make up for her other deficits. If they are doing the exact same jumps in a program, then there's really no way Irina should win. She should only be able to win if she does more jumps than Michelle...and even then, not always. There wasn't much going on in her skating. Mainly just jumps, speed, and sometimes a good spin.
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- Jul 9, 2014
I always "liked" but was never able to warm up to Irina. I know it's petty but, like Michelle, she was Maria's rival and I'm very loyal. It was the same way with Joshua and Jason and Plushy and Yags. I had to choose and once I did, that was that. Except for Todd Eldredge!!! Him and his great legs....
Mathman, ever since the old MKF days I have appreciated your way with words. Brilliant.
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- Sep 14, 2008
In exhibitions and professional competitions I found her to be great in many instances, but in her actual competitive programs not so much. Aside from her Don Quixote performance at the 1999/2000 season GPF, I really don't think she ever deserved higher than 5.7 on the second mark for any performance from 2000 through 2003, frequently just 5.6 there.
The talk about her "improved artistry" when she got older and stared doing all the jumps consistently doesn't hold much water to me. She tried to become more refined but it always felt disconnected in some way, thinking too hard through it and artificially trying move her arms as she had been told, and her Long Programs during that time period were rather empty. I think a couple of her performances in her youth were better than what she was doing when she "matured", there was a bubbly quality here that was very appealing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJRzBUQblbQ
CoP era actually brought out better qualities in her I think. Totentanz was her best SP and "The Bolt" the year before was also great. Up until that point I think her best SP was Autumn Leaves at the 1998/1999 season GPF, where she sadly got held down because of her Lutz being missing that season and didn't get to go to Europeans or Worlds because of how inconsistent/lackluster she had been earlier in the season.
