What will the 2010/2011 bring us in ICE DANCE?

[dorispulaski]

As regards my dismay ( I can't actually decide if it's dismay, or apprehension ).. Look , L/R have obviously taught their students well , insofar as what they do with their feet goes, and I guess also in knowing where you partner is on the ice, etc. They can get in and out of lifts smoothly. Kudos. They've managed to keep their current two top teams together for years, and this is the result...

But wait a minute, the good news is also the bad news .. they've had these couples for years , from the beginning, in fact. They've been together 8 yrs , 10 yrs...something like that. That the girls, most noticeably, should have the posture problems they do at this stage is , frankly, apalling.You will not see this in the major ice dance schools from any other major skating country. Not the French , not the Italians , certainly not the Russians ( if their shoulders get up it's a choreographic / stylistic effect ) , and not the Americans ( especially Z/S ). These skaters , almost universally, have good carriage. .. Not all good schools always have great costumes, so let's leave that aside..( though I don't see why L/R's shouldn't have them. )

I'm dismayed for the skaters they have now , who could have grown up with that training and it would now be second nature. Where would they be placing if they had, I wonder? And I'm apprehensive for their future skaters. Of course, the talented kids want to go to the best coaches ( Often that means ,the coaches whose skaters are getting the best results ) what about those kids' prospects ?

But I still don't think it's a hopeless case, as long as people can be objective and admit that the skaters and coaches have flaws that could stand some improvement. They don't need to make a fanfare or even admit it publicly.. Just go ahead and do something about it. The results will speak for themselves

We have coaches who really tackle these problems in other disciplines.. .

Yes, this is what puzzles me about L/R's school: when there is a problem, they seem to go into full defensive mode, rather than full Let's Fix It mode, at least publicly. And it wouldn't bother me so much, if it didn't happen that the next year, the kids have the same set of problems. And the choreo is chosen in the "If you can't fix it, feature it" philosophy. For C&P, if they don't fake a romantic relationship too well, let's have the following:

1. Two kids playing in the park (Perfect Day, my favorite FD of theirs)
2. Let's claim Bohemian Rhapsody is about Orpheus (which it isn't) so if Paul isn't looking at Vanessa, it is understandable, since his one look will send her back to Hades.
3. Let's do Eleanor Rigby which is about a women who is terribly lonely (again, who could expect a connection with her partner in that case). Let's make up a story to the press that it is 'uplifting' because her life was so dreadful that dying is a happy ending. GMAB.

The way you fix that problem (or at least try to address it) is to send the kids to acting and mime classes (something D&W and P&B have both done). No matter your or my opinion of the result, you've got to respect that they recognized a problem and tried to fix it. Denying the problem and trying to wiggle around it fixes nothing.

And then there's the constant "African" packaging of Ralph and Hill. They have a charming personality on the ice. For heaven's sakes, there are other things to do with them than stuff them in the ice dance equivalent of minstrel show pieces-once sure, but 3 years in a row????

Most puzzling is the failure to have decent costumes for the kids in the R/L school. It can't feel good for Kharis Ralph to be called out so publicly by Nick Verreos in his costume blog for Universal Sports on Cup of China. (essentially making the worst dressed list) One look at Kharis in that costume should have been enough to motivate changing it.

And make no mistake about it, C/P and R/H are very talented teams. R/L are doing them no favors by not helping them work through their shortcomings as well as displaying their strong points. And their failure to send these kids out nicely styled is even more puzzling.

 

[i love to skate]

OK.. tangos..I'm not trying to upset anyone ( although I am airing my own upset) ...don't misunderstand me, it's not just this article , it's this article , quoting their coach ,about how they've suffered and how unfairly they've been treated ,plus another article (two in a matter of a couple of days ) about SA in general, but that features C/P heavily, both by Beverly Smith.. There was a feature on the CBC coverage of SC about their work with Chris Dean, with Carol Lane front and center. Plus mention after mention of C/P and the Chris Dean program in the off season. No opportunity to mention it was ignored.

C/P were the top Canadian ice dance team at Skate Canada. Again, who should the fluff pieces have been about?? If V/M were there, and there were articles and a fluff piece on them, would you be saying the same thing??

C/P beat W/P at nationals by a very narrow margin,and many eyebrows were raised because the deciding marks were not given in the technical scores (C/P's strength ),but in the marks that include presentation and expression ( C/P's weakness, and as it happens , W/P's strength ). Considering the slim margin , I don't think it's right ,and neither should Skate Canada , that one team should be given so much greater weight in the press than the other.SC should be doing their darndest to get coverage for both.

Sure last year's Canadians was close between the two teams (because of a mistake by Vanessa). However, overall when you look at their overall placings at international competitions, C/P blow W/P out of the water. C/P won a medal in their first G/P appearance, made the Grand Prix Final in their second year of Senior level competition, and their highest placing at Worlds is 7th. W/P didn't win a G/P Medal until their fourth year of Senior level competition, have never made the GPF, and their highest placing at Worlds is 17th.

I'm dismayed for the skaters they have now , who could have grown up with that training and it would now be second nature. Where would they be placing if they had, I wonder? And I'm apprehensive for their future skaters. Of course, the talented kids want to go to the best coaches ( Often that means ,the coaches whose skaters are getting the best results ) what about those kids' prospects ?

But I still don't think it's a hopeless case, as long as people can be objective and admit that the skaters and coaches have flaws that could stand some improvement. They don't need to make a fanfare or even admit it publicly.. Just go ahead and do something about it. The results will speak for themselves

Over-react much? Behind V/M, C/P are the Canadian team with the highest international results, their "team" has frequently stated that Vanessa and Paul need to work on their expression more, they have put them in ballet classes, yoga, and pilates, and have stated that they needed to do something different in terms of choreography, so they went to Christopher Dean.

The results are speaking for themselves - this is going to be a break out year for C/P.

 

[herios]

C/P were the top Canadian ice dance team at Skate Canada. Again, who should the fluff pieces have been about?? If V/M were there, and there were articles and a fluff piece on them, would you be saying the same thing??



Sure last year's Canadians was close between the two teams (because of a mistake by Vanessa). However, overall when you look at their overall placings at international competitions, C/P blow W/P out of the water. C/P won a medal in their first G/P appearance, made the Grand Prix Final in their second year of Senior level competition, and their highest placing at Worlds is 7th. W/P didn't win a G/P Medal until their fourth year of Senior level competition, have never made the GPF, and their highest placing at Worlds is 17th.




Over-react much? Behind V/M, C/P are the Canadian team with the highest international results, their "team" has frequently stated that Vanessa and Paul need to work on their expression more, they have put them in ballet classes, yoga, and pilates, and have stated that they needed to do something different in terms of choreography, so they went to Christopher Dean.

The results are speaking for themselves - this is going to be a break out year for C/P.

Totally in agreement with you, I would add some more, but I have no time now....

 

[dorispulaski]

It should be a breakout year for many a team. DomShabs, B/A, Delschoes, V/M, SamBates, Khoklova/Novitski, Kerrs, and Capellini/Lanotte are all out of the GP series. 4 of those teams have retired for good, 3 are injured, and one is in restructuring, so speak (C/L). But that's 8 teams that have been in the top 10 that are either retired or having physical or other problems this year. Skate Canada has cerainly pegged C/P as their next big thing-well if you ignore the preciptate rise of Paul/Islam...
I'd like to see W/P keep it close, because I prefer their programs to C/P's in most cases.

But it will be as it will be.

Another oddity of this year's scoring system, per ISU communication 1621, p. 17:

However, there is another factor

This year, the ISU allows the option of of doing 4 small lifts in the FD, or 2 small lifts and one large or combo lift. The base value for the level 4 small lifts is 4.0. The base value for the serpentine lift level 4, or reverse rotatational lift level 4, or combo lift level 4 in both parts is 8.0

g) Combination Lift: The Base Values of the first two executed Short Lifts in a Combination Lift will be
added and one GOE (the same as for Reverse Rotational Lift and Serpentine Lift) will
be applied to the entire Lift.

Which from the table is +2.5 so if I am doing this correctly:

Therefore the best score you can get with the 4 lift option with +3 GOE is 4+1.5 per lift. Four of them then are 16+6.0=22.

The 2 small, one large lift option, all done with +3 GOe are 4+1.5 each for the two little lifts (11.00) and 8+2.5 for the large lift, resulting in only 21.5. It would be a heck of a thing if that missing 0.5 actually made a difference this year in any competition.

They should fix this next year, making the max GOE on big lifts 3.0.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Well, I think there are entirely too many fluff pieces , in place of showing more skating , but that's another story.
It's not just this fluff piece, or that article , it's the combined body of fluff, articles ,interviews etc.. It becomes a steady drumbeat , and begins to look like a PR campaign. And there's nothing wrong with PR..heaven knows skaters need attention in the media ,but when you have number of viable teams and only one is getting the attention, I don't think it's fair to the skaters, the other coaches or the fans. It makes it seem like before the season is off the ground ,a choice has been made to get behind one couple and the rest can hang in the wind.

I don't think it's much use enumerating the two teams several finishes over the years. They've traveled different paths. As with the 'seven placement discrepancy ', there are always a lot of outside factors that affect those placements. ( though the ones where they've gone head to head are worth noting,but they're not defining, as they took place months and years before. However they got here , the point is that right now we have two teams that are pretty equivalent in terms of ability , but you wouldn't know it if you were a casual observer just taking in what you saw/ heard in the media.

Yes, their team has acknowleged where C/P have needed to improve all along , we just haven't seen much change in these areas in 3 yrs. R/H have some of the same problems ( they do seem to relate to each other better , but that could have a lot to do with their personalities ), and again not much progress.
If C/P are now taking all these outside classes..Good. ( I hope it's enough ). But what about their other couples.. because this needs to be part of their standard regimen, not just a fix for Paul & Vanessa. Now they ( and R/H ) need intensive work , but for the ones coming up, they need it to be just a part of their regular training.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

The daggers are out tonight!!!

Okay.

1. Beverly Smith... I don't particularly like her writing. I don't like any writing that slants a little too nationalistic (so nope to Hersh as well) and Smith's does (I understand why it does, but that doesn't mean it has to appeal to me). So, with these two articles, I'm inclined to shrug my shoulders a little (particularly with the second one linked). I'm a little startled at the vituperative feeling engendered by the first one though. I knew about the food poisioning, fwiw. It features Smith's bizarre doubletalk (she mentions they were exhausted, as if she's prepping to excuse a low placement but then follows up with the implication that they were underscored.) and the usual "hide the truth in the facts" (the leap at Worlds) that we see from journalists, but you'd think that we found out small children were sacrificed to the skate gods for a top ten finish.

2. colleen, I'm a little confused by this statement you made: "I'd prefer if C/P were adopting that 'different' look out of choice, not necessity."

3. Another quote: "I have no objection to SC getting behind their coaches, but it's beginning to feel like playing favourites..one way or another we've had to hear Carol competed against T/D and that Juris was a Jr. world champion. As my mother would have said , " What's that got to do with the price of eggs ?"..W/P have a team of coaches with much grander competitive resumes, two of which are sought - after choreographers ,as well .. any mentions ? "

Does Bourne coach any other team than W/P? Would it bother you if a report mentioned that W/P are coached by two former world champions? I actually think the exact opposite here. I'm fascinated by the fact that some of the key choreographers of our time were former skaters, of course, but not the upper echelon skaters we think of (exceptions like Linichuk exist, of course, but Marina Zoueva was top five at worlds once, Sphilband had very little senior experience, due to the premature death of his partner). It interests me quite a bit.

4. Third quote: "Plus mention after mention of C/P and the Chris Dean program in the off season. No opportunity to mention it was ignored."

a) Before the Olympics, Shpilband/Zoueva trumpted that the creator of the Tango Romantica compulsory was gonna come and spend two days with the Canton quartet. Did that bug you?

b) If I worked with Christopher Dean (note: I'm not a skater, so this is fantasyland hypothetical here), I'd tell everyone often. I see nothing odd or even annoying about trumpeting the fact that a rising senior team (which C/P undeniably are) is working with perhaps the most iconic figure in the sports history (ie, he created the program for them). And this is why I wonder colleen, just how much your perception of L/R affects your reading here.

5. For all this talk about C/P's litany of flaws, I see very little mention about W/P's. W/P have consistency issues, often look very unrefined, can have aesthetically unappealing positions (see the lift in this season SD), corny programs/moments. For all the strides they made last year (both their programs were better than C/P's, imo) I don't think this year they are on equal footing. I'm curious how close it'll be at Skate America in the end.

The way you fix that problem (or at least try to address it) is to send the kids to acting and mime classes (something D&W and P&B have both done). No matter your or my opinion of the result, you've got to respect that they recognized a problem and tried to fix it. Denying the problem and trying to wiggle around it fixes nothing.

Eh, it earned Domnina/Shabalin a bronze medal at the Olympics.

 

[dorispulaski]

The one thing that bugs me in W/P's SD is Kaitlyn's feet coming apart in that sideways lift they open with. C/P are about one point ahead of them, after the SD and it is on PCS, how the heck does that happen? Speed and skating skills, I guess, because Performance & choreo should go to W/P, IMO.

The FD could go either way between C/P and W/P, they are so close.

 

[NorthernDancers]

I have to go with Doris and Colleen on this one....

Don't get me wrong.... I really like C/P FD this year. It suits them very well, and has a ton of room to grow, I think. And there are a number of L/R that have done well. Kudos to them.

But Scarboro is not the only venue in Canada to produce more than a few top skaters. Others that come to mind, East to West: Quebec (a couple of top producing clubs); Barrie (Islam), Waterloo (MacIntosh), and BC (Wing/Lowe). I agree SC should be careful not to unintentionally or intentionally pump one over the other. Each of these have their own strengths and weaknesses. And it is in bad taste if L/R are actually purposely doing this.

And the comments about posture issues are well known. It's not just C/P, but others as well in the lower ranks, too. It's been that way for a long time. It's been masked by speed and lots of smiles and crowd pleasing presentation.

And the comments about failing to venture out in new directions is also a common theme. Thinking of the Juniors, how many cheesy, Hollywood-like programs are we going to see out of O/H? They do it well, but they should by now. Just once did I see them do something different. But when it didn't make them champions, it was back to the same old tried and true. You can count on it. And R/H have been done a HUGE dis-service by skating to the same style years in a row. And there are other examples.

As far as costumes, Vanessa absolutely still needs a change in dress for the SD. It's just so wrong for her. She needs to take some hair and style tips from maybe the Russian team at Skate America this week. But the situation is chronic. Almost all the girls need more suitable and flattering and feminine costumes. Most of the boys are just fine, but I recall Marc Andre before he moved to Quebec, used to show up in hideous pleather a couple years in a row!

So I don't think Doris and Colleen are off the mark at all.

And I agree that W/P have been getting ignored in all the PR blitz. They are every bit as good as C/P. While W/P are not always consistent, when they are "on", they can be stunning. They have great lines, great chemistry and connection, and have a more classical style of dance. C/P tend to be more consistent and "attack", but have less connection and refinement, and have a more athletic style of dance. What's better? Depends on how each skate on the day. Today, I think W/P deserved to be ahead, but they are still only less than a point apart. W/P are not without accomplishment. They were 3rd in the world at Junior in their first year together, and were 4CC champions. And I think this is really worth noting, since C/P have been together for many years, while W/P have only skated together for much less time. A little sharing of the limelight would be good for both teams, I think. In Canada, we are blessed with quite a depth in ice dance. And interestingly enough, for the top 4, with roots in 3 different Canadian rinks. It's a good thing.

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, having 3 rinks producing top teams in a country is a great thing.

Here in the US, if you didn't start with Z/S, it seems you end up with them (Samuelson/Bates).

I wish more teams here would go to Krylova for coaching and to Shae Lynn Bourne for choreo-they've done a great job with W/P this year.

 

[gmyers]

It should be a breakout year for many a team. DomShabs, B/A, Delschoes, V/M, SamBates, Khoklova/Novitski, Kerrs, and Capellini/Lanotte are all out of the GP series. 4 of those teams have retired for good, 3 are injured, and one is in restructuring, so speak (C/L). But that's 8 teams that have been in the top 10 that are either retired or having physical or other problems this year. Skate Canada has cerainly pegged C/P as their next big thing-well if you ignore the preciptate rise of Paul/Islam...
I'd like to see W/P keep it close, because I prefer their programs to C/P's in most cases.

But it will be as it will be.

Another oddity of this year's scoring system, per ISU communication 1621, p. 17:
.

But Khokhlova is still around!

 

[herios]

2 Does Bourne coach any other team than W/P? Would it bother you if a report mentioned that W/P are coached by two former world champions? I actually think the exact opposite here. I'm fascinated by the fact that some of the key choreographers of our time were former skaters, of course, but not the upper echelon skaters we think of (exceptions like Linichuk exist, of course, but Marina Zoueva was top five at worlds once, Sphilband had very little senior experience, due to the premature death of his partner). It interests me quite a bit.

.

Bourne doesn`t coach any other team. In fact, I think she has very little to do with their coaching these days either. Weaver and Poje is a team I followed from their burst onto Canadian scene in 2007, which was spectacular, snatching the bronze medal at nationals after being a few months together.
Then they moved from Paul Macintosh to Bourne - Gates and got stuck and went nowwhere literally for 2 years (2008-09).
ONLY after switching from Bourne-Gates to Bourne-Camerlengo and Krylova, they started to get better results in 2009-10.

It is quite obvious to me, as Krylova and Camerlengo can give full attention to their preparation, while Bourne is one busy lady, doing touring, shows, choreography....
So I will attribute their recent improvement for moving to Michigan, if you check their bio, in full season they train in Michigan and only off season they train in Toronto.
Also, does anybody know, who did what in their choreo, they have both Shae-Lynn and Pasquale listed, I would be curious who`s stamp is on what.

 

[tangos]

Last year W/P had numerous articles, promos, exhibitions, interviews. I did not hear the usual gallery commenting on the lack of such PR for C/P.

Colleen, I think you might look past your own personal bias, and see that the posture issues are greatly improved and yet continue to be ignored and exagerated by a few.

C/P never have indicated that they think they have been unfairly treated. What others say and write is not their responsibility.

Why can't we just let the skaters skate and appreciate them ALL for the amazing dedication they exhibit.

 

[dorispulaski]

But Khokhlova is still around!

So true! and there is a nice article on Khokhlova & Andreev in "International Figure Skating" this month about them. Jana says she is happy living in the US, and Fedor says she is learning English at a breathtaking pace! They are another team with an opportunity to have a breakout year!

Also, does anybody know, who did what in their choreo, they have both Shae-Lynn and Pasquale listed, I would be curious who`s stamp is on what.

So would I! (I don't know)

 

[i love to skate]

Last year W/P had numerous articles, promos, exhibitions, interviews. I did not hear the usual gallery commenting on the lack of such PR for C/P.

Colleen, I think you might look past your own personal bias, and see that the posture issues are greatly improved and yet continue to be ignored and exagerated by a few.

C/P never have indicated that they think they have been unfairly treated. What others say and write is not their responsibility.

Why can't we just let the skaters skate and appreciate them ALL for the amazing dedication they exhibit.

I had another post but it disappeared somewhere (annoying!) and I can't find it so this is a shortened version of my post.

tangos, I completely agree!! Last year there were so many articles on W/P - where is the outrage on that?? I guess it is only one sided...

As for the comments regarding Vanessa's appearance, they really need to stop. It is one thing to make a comment about an outfit and say how atrocious/ugly it is. However, when people start making comments about ones "chest area", their hair, makeup, skin, say how horrible they look, how they need to start looking more "feminine", it really has gone too far. IMO, it is nothing more than bullying :disapp:

Leave the girl alone!

 

[Big Deal]

I've been watching all the programs in the Grand Prix circle now.

As far as I concerned the best programs are of Faiella-Scali's and Pechalat/Bourzat's. I prefer the previous more, it is a great pity they cannot perform that without these costum failures...The programs itself with their fantastic technique together can win them maybe 2 Golds this year (European and World).
This couple is the one, who improved the most in the last 3 yrs.

I never really was a fan of Pechalat-Bourzat, but their new programs are charming, difficult , expressive and innovative. They can make Faiella/Scali run for their money.

Davis/White is a big disappointment this year. They are boring somehow. They are just "doing" tango, which is a crime in this dance. Without a vibration, tense, inner fight it is not a tango, just a trial.
They seem to fail this trial. Unless they don't change it to something else (preferably Samson and Delilah)
this year will be their decline.

Crone/Poirier. This magnificent program can win any competition. The best music (what a cut of that!!!), excellent choreo, and VERY good technique. Poirier became one of the best male dancer, and Crone was improving with her carriage and positions.

Shibutanis can be on the podium if Virtue/Moir will skip the season. They are gorgeous, a joy to watch them. Elegant, crisp, fluent, beautiful. They look a completely different couple than last year!!

Weaver/Poje are VERY elegant, but not ready. A lots of talent included!

Ilynikh/Katsalapov is the most talented one, destroyed by the coaches. An old fashioned, boring program was made for them in FD and a very undigestable music for the SD. Also their technique leaves a lot to desire. These programs are not let them to show their best side and talent. Sorry about them.

Kerrs has a magnificent program, but they don't have the technique to execute it without mistakes.
If this program were performed by Virtue/Moir, it would be a memorable one!!!

The question marks are Virtue/Moir, and Kokhlova /Andreev .
The door is wide open. They both has a chance after what happened until this time of the season.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

One thing about Kokhlova/Andreev: We're seeing a lot of teams that are new to the senior circuit struggling with the Golden Waltz portions - Shibutanis, Paul/Islam... even Ilynikh/Katsalpov. I have to assume a skater completely new to dance would have massive issues with the Golden Waltz segment, and this is while trying to learn a new mode of skating.

A poor GP season doesn't precipitate a decline, people!!!!! Buck up and know that Davis/White are insanely hard workers who can make these difficult programs sing.

 

[colleen o'neill]

:disapp: if anyone thinks that I'm bullying Vanessa , they're entirely wrong.. I'm trying to stick up for her. And for W/P ..and for R/H ..and for P/I..Good grief , we're lucky to have so much talent. Let's give them all all the help they deserve.
Surely Vanessa doesn't deserve to be sent out on the ice looking odd. She's supposed to be able to trust the people around her ( because everyone needs an outside pair of eyes ) to say ,before she steps on the ice , E.G. ..This kind of under garment is going to look bad under a skin-tight costume...or.. That hairstyle is not the best for you..etc. Would Vanessa have chosen the weird hair style and ornament from her SC SD herself ? It doesn't seem like her style, to me. But if she had , some trusted person should have been kind enough to tell her it didn't suit her before she appeared not only on the ice ,but on international television. Someone ought to have been able to see that the straps were very poorly placed at the back of her costume. She's 7th in the world right now, for heaven's sake..she deserves to look polished...because she will come up against other skaters of comparable abilities and far better carriage and packaging, who are after the same spot she is. Why should she have to be at a disadvantage ? Costumes and styling should be an easy fix. You just call in outside help.

From Vanessa's first formative years, someone should have been on the sidelines saying... That's good, dear..but let's do it again keeping your shoulders down.( and Paul, look at your partner ) The school claims to have a ballet instructor. Either she /he has only been called on very occasionally, or I question her / his qualifications...Now, those kids have to be under pressure to try to break bad habits and mannerisms that have had 10 years to become set. It's much harder to achieve the desired goal, that way. I have seen some improvement in 3 yrs. , but not as much as I would expect, if the problems had been really seriously tackled 3 yrs. ago.

I haven't been critiqueing W/P in my posts , because this started out to be about Smith's article and whether there was a push on by Skate Canada to hype C/P before SA , and whether it was obvious , or a bit unseemly. I didn't like the tone of the article , or the implications made. I'm willing to give Carol Lane a bit of a pass, because maybe she's not so used to being interviewed, and maybe she didn't think Smith would print her complaints in such graphic terms. I have to bend over backward to do it though , because generally, coaches are a little more guarded in their interviews ..they are adults..they should know better.If she does know better , she's as culpable as Smith.

As for Skate Canada , sadly, Michael Slipchuk only made it worse (for me) on CBC's SA coverage. In his interview before the competition , in answer to what it would mean to us having V/M out of the picture , he promptly went on about C/P stepping up , never mentioning W/P ( you'd never have known they were even going to compete at SA) , never mentioning P/I's meteoric rise on the national scene, or our depth in general. He was only general about the pairs situation facing the absence of D&D. It was all too easy to guess whose basket was going to get the eggs. No-one had yet stepped on the ice.
Just to be sure, I'll re-check what I recorded, but I'm pretty certain that's right.

However , I don't mind going OT a bit, and giving my opinion of W/P,just for the record. I think they've made great strides , they've become noticeably faster,smoother, more together, over the past two years. To me, knowing their closest rivals' strength was on the tech side of things ,they have really faced up to that challenge, and have been able to get higher tech scores , without sacrificing performance quality. I agree with Pogue that they may keep using some of their lifts too long ,( but they may be thinking that because of their relatively few int'l. assignments those lifts might not yet be overexposed.)..Tough call, but when in doubt, go for the change, I say.... Though I like the content of their programs, I'd really like to see them move out of the realm of well-known musical or movie. If they really want to stand out , pick something a little less used for their FD. Make a statement. Sometimes Kaitlin's costumes have had a teeny touch more detail than I find necessary, but she can carry it off because of her figure type , where some other skaters would look cluttered. I think they need to be cautious going forward, as that kind of tendency can grow , but so far ,so gorgeous.

 

[Mrs. P]

One thing about Kokhlova/Andreev: We're seeing a lot of teams that are new to the senior circuit struggling with the Golden Waltz portions - Shibutanis, Paul/Islam... even Ilynikh/Katsalpov. I have to assume a skater completely new to dance would have massive issues with the Golden Waltz segment, and this is while trying to learn a new mode of skating.

A poor GP season doesn't precipitate a decline, people!!!!! Buck up and know that Davis/White are insanely hard workers who can make these difficult programs sing.

As I mentioned in the SA thread, I don't get all this D/W gloom and doom. They still have the best overall score of the season by about five points and this is considering they are no where where I think they could be.

They are crazy hard workers as IP said. Consider this: They completely reworked BOTH programs for this competition and managed to do them. Yes there were stumbles, but I've seen way worse for reworked programs.

I'm not worried yet. We'll see how they do at GPF and then we'll talk.

 

[colleen o'neill]

I have an hour to kill before CBC shows whatever they deign to show of dance. My computer froze through most of the SD..so all I've seen of the top contenders is W/P in the K&C, and Meryl & Charlie ,briefly, in warm up. But I saw the FD... Let me say it again.. I ADORE the Shibs and their twinkle-toed quickstep ! It's one of those programs I'll love revisiting over and over.

I must say, like bigdeal ,I do have some misgivings now,about Meryl and Charlie developing a Tango soul..and I ,too, said right away..rework S&D But maybe they can get it working better by the GPF..it would be tough to rework anything in that time. Still, I understand the waltz is lovely, and overall,they do have a technical cushion.

I like P/B's programs ( and costumes ) better than any they've had . ..F/S had such a disaster first time out, I almost feel like I still haven't seen them yet. ( I also have serious misgivings about I/K's programs , but love their talent, and am eager to see how they stack up with P/I, and what , if any changes/ refinements the two teams will have made. )

C/P's program still looks a bit unpolished to me, but it's early. ( pogue, what I meant about taking a new direction out of choice , not necessity, is that I wish I could feel like their problems had been adressed and they just wanted to try a different style , not that they needed to try a style that would mask their problems. It's still a good program , though.)

I quite agree with Doris about W/P's sideways lift. But unlike bigdeal, I think they are , or could be ready, but their FD, much as it has some good stuff in it, is not the vehicle they need to really break out . I'm not too sure I can feel right about the differential in the scores, though.

(BTW..I checked my recording, and yes Mike Slipchuk was asked,at SA, with V/M out could this be an opportunity for a team like CP. ..He should have said Yes, after Gold at SC and our other team here, W/P who just took silver at NHK and we have yet another team, P/I who came 2nd in the FD at SC. By answering the way he did he may as well have said to the world ,"our other teams aren't worth mentioning".

What if C/P were ill ,or injured at nationals , or at world's , and we had to send only couples that it seemed SC thought were lesser ( In spite of the fact that both have scored against C/P competitively in various areas )...As a stategy, it's potentially self-defeating ,as well as being unfair to the athletes.

 

[mishieru07]

As for the comments regarding Vanessa's appearance, they really need to stop. It is one thing to make a comment about an outfit and say how atrocious/ugly it is. However, when people start making comments about ones "chest area", their hair, makeup, skin, say how horrible they look, how they need to start looking more "feminine", it really has gone too far. IMO, it is nothing more than bullying :disapp:
Leave the girl alone!

No one here is saying Vanessa is ugly, I think she looks just fine! We are saying that her PACKAGING is totally wrong. THAT is a fair criticism that is warranted IMO. If teams can show up with nice, aesthetically appeasing costumes and appropriate make-up/ hair-do that complement the programme and not detract from it (eg Shibutanis), I don't understand why L/R cannot do the same for their teams. Better packaging can make them look more refined and mature; that can hardly be a negative point.

I'm typically biased toward W/P and P/I but C/P are a wonderful team who have potential. They could use more chemistry and certainly she could use better posture. I'm with Colleen in that she needs more ballet and dance classes to work specifically on it. Maybe it's just a bad habit that doesn't occur off the ice, because I cannot imagine any ballet teacher worth his/her salt not correcting her. Meryl Davis put in effort and her posture improved tremendously. I'm sure Vanessa can do the same!

That said, I hope V/M return for 4CC or at least Worlds. I'm not sure whether a combination of C/P, P/I and W/P will be enough to secure three spots for Canada next year. C/Z and the Shibs have been doing very well on the GP so far, with D/W, I think they've got a good chance of keeping all the spots. Next year will be killer when S/B return to the fray though!

Does anyone know what happened to the Italians who were supposed to compete in senior GP: A/V? Also wondering about how K/A and C/L will turn out. I hope the latter's coaching change goes well!

I wish more dance teams would go to Platov, Carmelengo or Bourne for choreography, I really enjoy their programmes. I'm really curious to see what an external choreographer could do with the Z/S dancers but that's probably not going to happen. Not that I don't like Z/S choreography, simply curious to see what others could do.