What would top ten order of finish be for men: a)all with quads, b)all with jumps now

[Mathman]

It is amazing nobody is questioning my pick of Goebel so far down. Two years ago people would have thought I was crazy. It is amazing how quickly things can change in this sport.

Two year ago (well, more like three, LOL) you would have been crazy. That was when Tim was doing three quads in his LP and jumping up a storm. Two years of boot problems leading to physical problems have taken him out of contention.

I hope the same thing doesn't happen to Plushenko, like it did to Yagudin. In a couple of years we might be saying, do you remember back when Plushenko could do a quad, before he had all those knee problems?

Mathman

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Lambiel may have skated 'slightly' longer than Weir but with much worse injuries over a long period time. I'm not joining in the nitpicking that much because I like both skaters and whoever skates the best than so be it.

It's not his jumps or his presentation with Goebel. It's his putting too much pressure on himself

Hit or misses: Sandhu, Lindemann, Nikidinov, Kirk, all those former Russian skaters that did so well in Juniors. These are a sorry skaters because they are all potentially good.

Joe

 

[Callystarr]

Well its impossible to know what the judges will put folks, but this is where I think they should be...these are hypothetical if clean.

Emanuel Sandhu (CAN)
Stephane Lambiel (SUI)
Evgeni Plushenko (RUS)
Takeshi Honda (JPN)
Jeffrey Buttle (CAN)
Johnny Weir (USA)
Brain Joubert (FRA)
Tim Goebel (USA)
Chengjiang Li (CHN)


Here is my explanation for some:


Emanuel Sandhu: when he lands his jumps they are spectacular, his spins are superior to that of Evgeni Plushenko along with components with perhaps the exception of skating skills. He does not skate with the speed or fire, but overall bodylign and artistic side of skating is far superior to that of Plushenko.

Stephane Lambiel: Similar characteristics, spins are superior to both Plushenko and Sandhu, however he never attempts a 2nd 3Axel, that is the difference between him and Sandhu in the marks. Also components are stronger than Plushenko, but I feel that Sandhu is still slightly better.

Takeshi Honda: Well I am basing this off performances he had before his major injury problems 2002-2003...he does have quads in his arsenal and a mature skater..I guess this is a hope he comes back strong.

Jeffrey Buttle: Should get the highest component marks of everyone, does not have the quads but his presentation, transitions, and spins will definately make up for it.

Johnny Weir: Elegant skater, nice jumps, fell his presentation will bring him above some of the skaters below him.

 

[chuckm]

Honda has not been the same skater since he suffered a serious injury after Worlds 2003. He missed the entire 2003-2004 season, then came back to the 2004-2005 Grand Prix, where he had poor results. He competed at Skate Canada and NHK, and finished 7th in both events. He attempted a quad combo in the SP at both events, but fell each time. He popped the quad to doubles in his FSs, and had trouble with his 3A in both events. Then he suffered another serious injury at Worlds 2005 and had to be carried off the ice on a stretcher.

Takeshi is 24 and hasn't had a successful international competition since his bronze at Worlds 2003. He has an uphill climb to re-establish himself as a medal contender, and that is IF he can completely recover from his injuries and regain his jumps.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Takeshi's fall in Moscow was so sad. Everyone there was pulling for him to have a good comeback. He limped off the ice.

Joe

 

[slutskayafan21]

I like Honda but you know that saying "stick a fork in him, he's done". As far as his amateur career I have had that feeling for about 6 months now, after the injury he attained at Worlds I feel even more certain of that. Japan has alot of great skating shows, perhaps it is best to bypass another year of frusteration and enjoy the fruits of labour he has earned from a fine career.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Callystar, I agree with you on how the placings should be if everybody skated cleanly, and your explanations were excellent. That is of course if judges removed their biases and general feelings based on a skaters stature and history they have now.

 

[curious]

nor his stops and poses. Other skaters do have more flow and speed is relative to the choreography. When Plushy stops to pose there is no speed. It's a breath catcher. However, he does have solid jumps and that's what counts in figure skating!!!

Joe

The others don't stop and pose to catch their breath too? You would not see much coreo in weir,buttle or lambiel's(he has the quads but not a good triple axel or difficult combos like a 4-3-2 or a 4-3-3)programs if they had Plushy's jump content.

 

[brad640]

The others don't stop and pose to catch their breath too? You would not see much coreo in weir,buttle or lambiel's(he has the quads but not a good triple axel or difficult combos like a 4-3-2 or a 4-3-3)programs if they had Plushy's jump content.

LOL curious! Plushenko could take all the jumps out of his programs and he stil could not spin like Lambiel!

 

[BittyBug]

I know that some people are frustrated by Plushenko's posing/resting and think this should be used to lower his marks, but it's interesting that one of the differentiatiors to achieve a Level 3 step sequence is "quick changes of speed." Similarly, if you look at the old, more detailed PCS guidelines, one of the factors to achieve the highest GOE for Skating Skills is "effortless speed," and for Performance Execution it is "superior control of pace of program."

Starting and stopping as Plushenko does may provide him with brief rests, but it also takes a lot of energy to ramp right back up, and the fact is that Plushy is like a race car - he goes from a complete stop to top speed in just a few steps. The judges rightfully reward him for this power.

 

[curious]

LOL curious! Plushenko could take all the jumps out of his programs and he stil could not spin like Lambiel!

maybe,but lambiel can't spin his way to gold in turino lol! this is still a sport not ballet

 

[curious]

I know that some people are frustrated by Plushenko's posing/resting and think this should be used to lower his marks, but it's interesting that one of the differentiatiors to achieve a Level 3 step sequence is "quick changes of speed." Similarly, if you look at the old, more detailed PCS guidelines, one of the factors to achieve the highest GOE for Skating Skills is "effortless speed," and for Performance Execution it is "superior control of pace of program."

Starting and stopping as Plushenko does may provide him with brief rests, but it also takes a lot of energy to ramp right back up, and the fact is that Plushy is like a race car - he goes from a complete stop to top speed in just a few steps. The judges rightfully reward him for this power.

their faves lack of consistency,difficult jumps and ability to perform like plushy frustrates them,not his pose/resting or bad spins lol!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

their faves lack of consistency,difficult jumps and ability to perform like plushy frustrates them,not his pose/resting or bad spins lol!

Curious - It's just a nitpick of Evgeni. No one is suggesting he isn't numero uno. It's his style and everyone is entitled to enjoy different styles,. People have their own tastes in sport (art if you think figure skating is art).

Relax. It's nice to have a diverse field in Men's skating. Too many Yagudin wannabees.

Joe

 

[slutskayafan21]

maybe,but lambiel can't spin his way to gold in turino lol! this is still a sport not ballet

Spins are not just ballet, they are a major part of skating. If Lambiel's advantage in spin scores helped him win the Olympic Gold there would be nothing wrong with that. Heck we all know Lucinda Ruh deserved more credit for her spins than she got(she was far more dominant a female spinner than Lambiel a male spinner, probably the best female spinner ever over Biellman and Ruh even), but the difference with her is she couldnt jump her way out of a paper bag, Lambiel is not neccessarily the best jumper but he is a very good one. In fact if other areas are close Lambiel's spins should give an edge over some of his competitors.

 

[slutskayafan21]

their faves lack of consistency,difficult jumps and ability to perform like plushy frustrates them,not his pose/resting or bad spins lol!

Hello crs from fsu, am I right?

 

[Mathman]

This is a great thread. We usually see this kind of passion only on Michelle versus Sasha threads, LOL.

MM

PS. Van der Perren is better than Klimkin!

 

[PrincessLeppard]

Starting and stopping as Plushenko does may provide him with brief rests, but it also takes a lot of energy to ramp right back up, and the fact is that Plushy is like a race car - he goes from a complete stop to top speed in just a few steps. The judges rightfully reward him for this power.

I just have to give a "hell, yeah!" to this post. People were all screaming about the stops in "Godfather" but he just explodes out of them. DAMN. I was in awe the first time I saw that. (and no, it wasn't from the extremely flattering and tight fitting costume, I swear! )

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

MM

PS. Van der Perren is better than Klimkin!

Another two favorites at this point in time!!

What with Plushenko and Lambiel; v d Perren and Klimkin; Weir and Buttle; Joubert and Lysencko. If all skate at their best, it will be the hottest contest in Men's figure skating since Stoyko, Kulic, Candeloro and Eldridge. I've got to find a way to see it on TV. You know NBC will not show 8 skaters.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

As I understand the intent of this thread, it is to set the jumps and consistency issues aside for a moment and judge the contenders on their non-jump elements. For the "top 10" listed on the first post of this thread, I would say:

Spins: Lambiel.

MITF, overall smoothness of presentation: Weir

Choreo / musicality / on-ice personality: Buttle

Best looking: Joubert (sorry Princess Leppard )

Plushenko: Strong in all areas, but the jumps make the man.

Li: Consistently underrated, but again the jumps are his strongest suit.

Eman: Too much the brooding artist for my taste.

Lindemann: The anti-Sandhu (hype down a little, LOL).

Lysacek: Very entertaining. But is he ready for prime time?

Goebel: Without the jumps, not a contender IMHO.

My personal faves: Weiss :thumbsup: Van der Perren, Takahashi, Murvanidze.

MM

 

[GlitterTwist]

Hypothetically if all skated cleanly that would be an absolutely amazing Olympics. But, face it, it's NOT going to happen. If it does, I'll eat my hat. Sandhu rising to the pressure of Olys? Not gunna happen. All of those guys with two quads? Again, not gunna happen. My predictions for a *real* podium, at this points. (Yes, I know that's not what you asked for slutskayafan21, but it seems so ridiculous to make predictions on "if they all skated cleanly with quads", almost as silly as saying, make predictions on the ladies if they all do a 3/3/3!!)

Plushenko ~ You just can't bet against him. He's proven himself time and time again to be a fierce competitor and he will want to avenge his fall in the SP in SLC.

Weir ~ He is so smooth and calm. His skating is graceful, and beautiful to behold. I think he will be able to add a quad to his arsenal, and you can bet that if he attempts a quad, he will land it. As long as he is healthy, he is the most consistent competitor here.

Joubert ~ Definitely out to avenge his awful performance at Worlds and hopefully with a program different then Yagudin's. The crowds love him, he is gorgeous, and he does have a certain style about him.

Spoilers: Evan Lysacek - He is also very consistent and appeals to the crowd, Jeff Buttle - Great choreo!, Stephane Lambiel - Well...he DID win worlds this year